Tyrod will not be handed starting Job

[transplantbillsfan]

Is this a joke?

 

People are not being given vacations for their strong beliefs one way or the other on this topic....they are being given vacations because they cant make points without degrading the other posts

 

name calling

calling people uneducated

etc etc etc

 

THIS is what earns folks their time outs.....doesnt look like trans has crossed that line

 

Thanks poop face

[BringBackOrton]

Is this a joke?

 

People are not being given vacations for their strong beliefs one way or the other on this topic....they are being given vacations because they cant make points without degrading the other posts

 

name calling

calling people uneducated

etc etc etc

 

THIS is what earns folks their time outs.....doesnt look like trans has crossed that line

People get warnings for crusading and spamming too, John. There's more than one possible infraction. Shocking, I know.

[Big Gun]

 

This. Though I don't think there's polar symmetry between the two positions, at least not from their most vocal proponents. You occasionally see a cringe-worthy pro-TT comment, but the Glass Half Full crowd see him as an above average QB – at least to a degree – with still a lot of potential up-side. Wild exaggeration & extreme caricature typically come from Glass Half Empty types, who often don’t see a drop of water in the glass, or deny the existence of the glass itself.

So the pro Tyrod crowd is right on all fronts and the non pro Tyrod crowd is wrong about everything.

[John from Riverside]

So the pro Tyrod crowd is right on all fronts and the non pro Tyrod crowd is wrong about everything.

They may not be wrong about everything.....they just havent been proven right

[BillsFan4]

Still kind of seems to me like McDermott is betting against Tyrod being his future QB. I don't think they cut 3 years off the guy's contract just because Tyrod said he was open to a restructure and because they felt obligated to save money. Sure, they saved money This Year, but his salary cap hit next year is already higher than it was under his previous 5 year contract, and if he establishes himself as a true franchise QB his cap hit in 2019 and beyond is likely going to be much higher than it was under his previous 5 year deal (whether that's on a new deal, or using the franchise tag).

 

IMO, if McDermott was truly betting on Tyrod being The Guy, he'd have picked up his option that essentially only tied Tyrod to the Bills for 2-3 years anyway (hen his dead cap would be palatable). But now he's only essentially tied to the Bills for this year only. Cutting him next year costs $8M to save $10M. I'm not saying that he will be cut, just that he can be.

 

If he truly believes Tyrod is likely the franchise QB, he made a poor, short sighted move IMO.

But personally, I think he's betting against Tyrod being the guy.

Edit - maybe I shouldn't say betting against. But I think they're betting more against him being the guy than betting for...

 

If you remember me from BBMB, you know I am a Tyrod fan. I argued for him to start over EJ. I argued to keep him, and I've argued that he has ran this (top 10 scoring) offense much better than he gets credit for by some. I also don't think he's as easily replaceable as some think, otherwise we'd have had a QB as good as him in these last 12+ years. I am excited to see what Tyrod does this year, and I still think he has a chance to be our long term solution at QB.

I am just trying to look at the situation as realistically as I can. I'd love it if TT proves to be our future QB, though.

Edited May 20, 2017 by BillsFan4

[Bangarang]

They may not be wrong about everything.....they just havent been proven right

Nobody is right. Nobody knows anything. Everything is speculation and opinion. That is a summary of the last 20 pages.

[Foxx]

time to let this one die off.

[Maury Ballstein]

They may not be wrong about everything.....they just havent been proven right

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/190565-honest-question-qb-for-marcel-d/?hl=trade%20marcel

 

Except that time he no showed in must win games vs Raiders and Steelers and you gave up on him.

 

Selective memory is the best.

 

Farewell offseason nonsense, I look forward to the new batch of excuses in October.

 

#CoT 4evvvvvvR. Don't @ me bruhhhhh's. I've read enough of these fables already. Last post for me in this thread.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Maury Ballstein

[Big Gun]

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/190565-honest-question-qb-for-marcel-d/?hl=trade%20marcel

 

Except that time he no showed in must win games vs Raiders and Steelers and you gave up on him.

 

Selective memory is the best.

 

Farewell offseason nonsense, I look forward to the new batch of excuses in October.

 

#CoT 4evvvvvvR. Don't @ me bruhhhhh's. I've read enough of these fables already.

Hahahaha that link is epic.

 

Typical for him and a few others.

Edited May 20, 2017 by old school

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

time to let this one die off.

 

 

long ago it should of been locked down. this (as well as others of the same agenda) thread, some of the posts and posters have really turned me off about this board. what both sides need to do is just let it ride and realize regardless of how much those that don't want him starting or those that feel he should, neither side will change anything with the constant "personal crusades" as seen in this thread and it should of been shut down long ago.

 

 

 

what happened to make your point and move on to the next topic?

Edited May 20, 2017 by DaBillsFanSince1973

[GunnerBill]

Still kind of seems to me like McDermott is betting against Tyrod being his future QB. I don't think they cut 3 years off the guy's contract just because Tyrod said he was open to a restructure and because they felt obligated to save money. Sure, they saved money This Year, but his salary cap hit next year is already higher than it was under his previous 5 year contract, and if he establishes himself as a true franchise QB his cap hit in 2019 and beyond is likely going to be much higher than it was under his previous 5 year deal (whether that's on a new deal, or using the franchise tag).

 

IMO, if McDermott was truly betting on Tyrod being The Guy, he'd have picked up his option that essentially only tied Tyrod to the Bills for 2-3 years anyway (hen his dead cap would be palatable). But now he's only essentially tied to the Bills for this year only. Cutting him next year costs $8M to save $10M. I'm not saying that he will be cut, just that he can be.

 

If he truly believes Tyrod is likely the franchise QB, he made a poor, short sighted move IMO.

But personally, I think he's betting against Tyrod being the guy.

Edit - maybe I shouldn't say betting against. But I think they're betting more against him being the guy than betting for...

 

If you remember me from BBMB, you know I am a Tyrod fan. I argued for him to start over EJ. I argued to keep him, and I've argued that he has ran this (top 10 scoring) offense much better than he gets credit for by some. I also don't think he's as easily replaceable as some think, otherwise we'd have had a QB as good as him in these last 12+ years. I am excited to see what Tyrod does this year, and I still think he has a chance to be our long term solution at QB.

I am just trying to look at the situation as realistically as I can. I'd love it if TT proves to be our future QB, though.

 

 

Excellent post. You can be pro-Tyrod and accept the reality that teams do not slash the contracts of guys they think are their QB of the future.

[Kirby Jackson]

It's worse than EJ. It truly is.

It's a lot different though because EJ was awful and never did anything. Tyrod has been an average starter which makes the debate infinitely more valid. Each side has valid points depending on which data you choose to use. That's why it is a never ending debate. The EJ supporters didn't have anything to hang their hat on in terms of achievement. That's why they dwindled over time. That's not the case with Tyrod because there have been some clear successes and clear failures. When you put that together it's not a surprise that he's 15-14 -average.

[BringBackOrton]

It's a lot different though because EJ was awful and never did anything. Tyrod has been an average starter which makes the debate infinitely more valid. Each side has valid points depending on which data you choose to use. That's why it is a never ending debate. The EJ supporters didn't have anything to hang their hat on in terms of achievement. That's why they dwindled over time. That's not the case with Tyrod because there have been some clear successes and clear failures. When you put that together it's not a surprise that he's 15-14 -average.

The debate never ends because it's conflated. Almost all posters have accepted that TT is our starter in 2017, and yet this point is brought up over and over.

 

More importantly is TT's role beyond 2017. GunnerBill painted the 3 most logical scenarios, which I'm not sure anyone could argue with.

 

The bottom line is that no matter your personal opinion, TT, his advisers, and his agent all agreed the Bills might have moved on if he didn't take a pay cut, and that it was a smarter move to take a pay cut rather than test FA. There have been increasingly fantastic and incredible reasons for "why" Taylor did what he did, but the most simple and logical relates to the money.

 

I contend this is the most likely scenario based on what we know about the NFL. Any contentions to the contrary, like "McD secretly likes Taylor as a franchise QB but played hardball to cut his paycheck," is wild speculation based on very little. After all, if TT and his camp all thought the Bills weren't bluffing, with them having access to far more information, including market value and other factors, than us casual fans do, why should we believe the opposite of them?

 

Like most "Pro-TT" arguments, it seems a stretch. They are welcome to their opinions, but they argue, in my mind, the 25% having equal odds as the 75%. That's why language like "inarguable" is used. IMO, it's inarguable that it's more likely that TT has peaked as an NFL QB. Does that mean he absolutely 100% cannot? Of course not. Does that mean there's an equal chance he can improve or plateau? No.

 

Just like EJ, there was a minute chance the light turned on. There still is, in Oakland. And yet a contingent of fans took it upon themselves to defend that minute chance with their lives. Just like the TT contingent.

Edited May 20, 2017 by jmc12290

[Kirby Jackson]

The debate never ends because it's conflated. Almost all posters have accepted that TT is our starter in 2017, and yet this point is brought up over and over.

 

More importantly is TT's role beyond 2017. GunnerBill painted the 3 most logical scenarios, which I'm not sure anyone could argue with.

 

The bottom line is that no matter your personal opinion, TT, his advisers, and his agent all agreed the Bills might have moved on if he didn't take a pay cut, and that it was a smarter move to take a pay cut rather than test FA. There have been increasingly fantastic and incredible reasons for "why" Taylor did what he did, but the most simple and logical relates to the money.

 

I contend this is the most likely scenario based on what we know about the NFL. Any contentions to the contrary, like "McD secretly likes Taylor as a franchise QB but played hardball to cut his paycheck," is wild speculation based on very little. After all, if TT and his camp all thought the Bills weren't bluffing, with them having access to far more information, including market value and other factors, than us casual fans do, why should we believe the opposite of them?

 

Like most "Pro-TT" arguments, it seems a stretch. They are welcome to their opinions, but they argue, in my mind, the 25% having equal odds as the 75%. That's why language like "inarguable" is used. IMO, it's inarguable that it's more likely that TT has peaked as an NFL QB. Does that mean he absolutely 100% cannot? Of course not. Does that mean there's an equal chance he can improve or plateau? No.

 

Just like EJ, there was a minute chance the light turned on. There still is, in Oakland. And yet a contingent of fans took it upon themselves to defend that minute chance with their lives. Just like the TT contingent.

Well, clearly you've taken your position so I guess I will take the flip side to illustrate my point.

 

It wasn't exactly insulting to take $15M. If the Bills didn't think that he had at least a chance they would have let him walk. Instead they gave him a prove it deal with the opportunity to prove it. Tyrod, knowing the system, bet on himself. Lots of QBs have done this with varying degrees of success. Flacco and Cousins seem to be the best examples of guys who've succeeded doing it.

 

Tyrod isn't for everyone but with his QBR, TD:INT ratio and offensive DVOA rankings under him he will be a starter in the NFL for the near future. His numbers stack up favorably to Tannehill, Smith and (gasp) Flacco since he took over. Those guys you can win with but don't win because of.

 

I'm not sure what EJ has to do with any of this. I could stack the 2 resumes side-by-side and ask you where you are seeing the similarities but don't want to waste either of our time. The EJ supporters were delusional. The Tyrod supporters aren't delusional. No one believes that he is great (if you are seeing those claims feel free to share). The Tyrod supporters believe that it is really, really hard to find QB play that you can win with. He provided that. The detractors think that you need QB play that you can win because of. I don't think anyone is opposed to upgrading but there are different beliefs on how easy that is to do. The detractors have convinced themselves that you can throw a rock and get what TT provides. The supporters quickly dispel that using comparison and stats.

 

It isn't similar in any way to the EJ scenario. There weren't any signs pointing to EJ ever becoming the guy. Tyrod will either take the job and run with it, regress and be released or be a similar type player leaving this debate raging on. The most likely scenario is the 3rd.

 

The gross numbers will look better because the attempts will go up in this scheme. As someone that doesn't care (at all) about passing yards I won't be impressed. It's the yards per attempt, red zone & 3rd down efficiency and turnovers that I care about. I expect those to remain fairly steady with the TDs and INTs rising because of the increased attempts. Anyone expecting something different is basing that on the side of the argument that they've chosen to hitch their wagon to. We may get different results but we should expect what we've seen.

[BringBackOrton]

Well, clearly you've taken your position so I guess I will take the flip side to illustrate my point.

 

Tyrod isn't for everyone but with his QBR, TD:INT ratio and offensive DVOA rankings under him he will be a starter in the NFL for the near future. His numbers stack up favorably to Tannehill, Smith and (gasp) Flacco since he took over. Those guys you can win with but don't win because of.

 

I'm not sure what EJ has to do with any of this. I could stack the 2 resumes side-by-side and ask you where you are seeing the similarities but don't want to waste either of our time. The EJ supporters were delusional. The Tyrod supporters aren't delusional. No one believes that he is great (if you are seeing those claims feel free to share). The Tyrod supporters believe that it is really, really hard to find QB play that you can win with. He provided that. The detractors think that you need QB play that you can win because of. I don't think anyone is opposed to upgrading but there are different beliefs on how easy that is to do. The detractors have convinced themselves that you can throw a rock and get what TT provides. The supporters quickly dispel that using comparison and stats.

 

It isn't similar in any way to the EJ scenario. There weren't any signs pointing to EJ ever becoming the guy. Tyrod will either take the job and run with it, regress and be released or be a similar type player leaving this debate raging on. The most likely scenario is the 3rd.

 

The gross numbers will look better because the attempts will go up in this scheme. As someone that doesn't care (at all) about passing yards I won't be impressed. It's the yards per attempt, red zone & 3rd down efficiency and turnovers that I care about. I expect those to remain fairly steady with the TDs and INTs rising because of the increased attempts. Anyone expecting something different is basing that on the side of the argument that they've chosen to hitch their wagon to. We may get different results but we should expect what we've seen.

It wasn't exactly insulting to take $15M. If the Bills didn't think that he had at least a chance they would have let him walk. Instead they gave him a prove it deal with the opportunity to prove it. Tyrod, knowing the system, bet on himself. Lots of QBs have done this with varying degrees of success. Flacco and Cousins seem to be the best examples of guys who've succeeded doing it.

 

A chance at what? Improving? Of course he has a chance, they just weren't willing to bet on it. Neither am I. They gave him a prove it deal, but they had to get him to give up the "I'm proven" deal, which speaks to how they feel about TT. A large point of contention in this topic, but I think we're on the same page here. And that's the key difference between the case of TT and Flacco/Cousins. Neither of those guys were forced into taking paycuts to "prove" it. It's not like he's making $1M, I agree, but it is a significant paycut and an expression of their confidence in him as a player going forward.

 

Tyrod isn't for everyone but with his QBR, TD:INT ratio and offensive DVOA rankings under him he will be a starter in the NFL for the near future. His numbers stack up favorably to Tannehill, Smith and (gasp) Flacco since he took over. Those guys you can win with but don't win because of.

 

Sure, that's fine. Even with all those numbers, TT felt that the Bills would let him walk if he didn't take a paycut. Again, speaking volumes to not only how the Bills felt about him, but what TT, his camp, and his agent believed. Again, a large point of contention in this topic. And I think Flacco streakiness is underrated, just IMO. His week to week ceiling is higher than the other three.

 

I'm not sure what EJ has to do with any of this. I could stack the 2 resumes side-by-side and ask you where you are seeing the similarities but don't want to waste either of our time. The EJ supporters were delusional. The Tyrod supporters aren't delusional. No one believes that he is great (if you are seeing those claims feel free to share). The Tyrod supporters believe that it is really, really hard to find QB play that you can win with. He provided that. The detractors think that you need QB play that you can win because of. I don't think anyone is opposed to upgrading but there are different beliefs on how easy that is to do. The detractors have convinced themselves that you can throw a rock and get what TT provides. The supporters quickly dispel that using comparison and stats.

 

They are delusional about different things. No one thought EJ was "great" either, and they were still delusional. I'm not talking about guys like you, who believe TT is good enough with a team around him, that's subjective and arguable. I'm talking about guys who say things like, "McDermott thinks TT is the QB of the future," or overreact to every single slight to their favorite QB, real or imagined. It's delusion, plain and simple, and it's tiring.

 

It isn't similar in any way to the EJ scenario. There weren't any signs pointing to EJ ever becoming the guy. Tyrod will either take the job and run with it, regress and be released or be a similar type player leaving this debate raging on. The most likely scenario is the 3rd.

 

Agreed, which is why dying on a hill to support scenario #1 or 2 is foolish and delusional.

 

The gross numbers will look better because the attempts will go up in this scheme. As someone that doesn't care (at all) about passing yards I won't be impressed. It's the yards per attempt, red zone & 3rd down efficiency and turnovers that I care about. I expect those to remain fairly steady with the TDs and INTs rising because of the increased attempts. Anyone expecting something different is basing that on the side of the argument that they've chosen to hitch their wagon to. We may get different results but we should expect what we've seen.

 

Maybe they will and maybe they won't. I'm not entirely convinced attempts will rise that meaningfully.

 

What I can say is that player evaluation is subjective. Some folks may be warmer or colder depending on the player. I had no problem with the folks who were warmer on EJ than me. The problem lay on the people who were red hot on EJ when it wasn't truly warranted. I feel we see a similar situation ongoing now. If you think TT is "good enough" to hang onto, build around, and hope for some breaks to make a run, I think you have some good evidence to support that stance. If you think the Bills think that TT is the QB of the future, and that "there's no reason he can't improve," and he's bordering on irreplaceable, I think that's absurd. And it paints other topics, too.

 

The greatest pushback on drafting QB's or QB prospects on TBD historically have always been the chief, vocal supporters of one of the incumbent QB's. The EJ supporters hated the idea of drafting Carr because of the implication. The JP and Trent guys and etc etc. Am I supposed to believe that all of the pushback from drafting a QB in the 2016 and 2017 classes (three of whom went in the top 12) was not painted by any TT bias? Especially when some of the most vocal TT supporters were EJ guys to the last?

 

That's what I contend with. I think there are great opinions (mainly the ones I agree with), solid opinions, and bad opinions. Believing that the Bills view TT as the QB of the future falls in the third category to me.

Edited May 20, 2017 by jmc12290

[John from Riverside]

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/190565-honest-question-qb-for-marcel-d/?hl=trade%20marcel

 

Except that time he no showed in must win games vs Raiders and Steelers and you gave up on him.

 

Selective memory is the best.

 

Farewell offseason nonsense, I look forward to the new batch of excuses in October.

 

#CoT 4evvvvvvR. Don't @ me bruhhhhh's. I've read enough of these fables already. Last post for me in this thread.

And this hear is why you have to change screen names and everyone wonders where you go for a month......

 

you are the blue print of how to get banned at TSW....congrats You probably think your winning the internet.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

It's a lot different though because EJ was awful and never did anything. Tyrod has been an average starter which makes the debate infinitely more valid. Each side has valid points depending on which data you choose to use. That's why it is a never ending debate. The EJ supporters didn't have anything to hang their hat on in terms of achievement. That's why they dwindled over time. That's not the case with Tyrod because there have been some clear successes and clear failures. When you put that together it's not a surprise that he's 15-14 -average.

...NEITHER had the best of starting careers in Buffalo nor competent coaching.....EJ failed because in the end, he just did not have "IT" including zero confidence....TT's tenure has been rocky with coaching and changes....he has more promise than EJ.....Belichick is the master of designing a system to fit players' talents, which equates to Brady's success....Dennison will .design a system to fit TT's talents, perhaps a WCO style with quick reads/progressions to get the ball out earlier, making his wheels a selective option versus dire necessity, not locking on to one guy, utilizing the backfield more (Faulk killed this club over time as did others) and exploiting the TE spot (think Andre YAC Reed warrior type in the middle or seam but with TE)......tall order for Dennison, but if he can do it, the passing game could become a viable and threatening dimension to compliment the run game...stay tuned..............

[Big Gun]

...NEITHER had the best of starting careers in Buffalo nor competent coaching.....EJ failed because in the end, he just did not have "IT" including zero confidence....TT's tenure has been rocky with coaching and changes....he has more promise than EJ.....Belichick is the master of designing a system to fit players' talents, which equates to Brady's success....Dennison will .design a system to fit TT's talents, perhaps a WCO style with quick reads/progressions to get the ball out earlier, making his wheels a selective option versus dire necessity, not locking on to one guy, utilizing the backfield more (Faulk killed this club over time as did others) and exploiting the TE spot (think Andre YAC Reed warrior type in the middle or seam but with TE)......tall order for Dennison, but if he can do it, the passing game could become a viable and threatening dimension to compliment the run game...stay tuned..............

Very debatable that a WCO fits Tyrods talents.

 

We shall see come TC.

 

Couldn't it also be said the both Roman and Lynn tried to design a system catering to Tyrods talents? I think they somewhat tried but in the end it wasn't the greatest fit. IMO

 

Taylor does what Taylor does and no system might fit all that well with what he does well.

Edited May 20, 2017 by old school

[John from Riverside]

People get warnings for crusading and spamming too, John. There's more than one possible infraction. Shocking, I know.

your not listening jmc (or choose not to) YOUR DOING WHAT YOUR WARNING ABOUT

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

Very debatable that a WCO fits Tyrods talents.

 

We shall see come TC.

 

Couldn't it also be said the both Roman and Lynn tried to design a system catering to Tyrods talents? I think they somewhat tried but in the end it wasn't the greatest fit. IMO

 

Taylor does what Taylor does and no system might fit all that well with what he does well.

...apologize if I selected WCO in error, having meant something quicker and shorter to change his progressions/read time.....we'll never know about Roman...I do know he went ballistic internally at OBD when Cassel was dumped so I'm not sure how much stock, faith and confidence he put into TT with his game plans....Lynn tried to keep the motor running regardless IMO.........