Using a 1st Rd pick on a CB/S is a waste of pick

[Jerry Jabber]

IMO, the Bills wasted too many first round draft picks on CB’s over the years as they are very rarely resigned (Winfield, Clements, Gilmore). If a first round CB does well in his rookie contract, his next one is usually too high for the Bills to keep him, so the way I look at it, it’s a wasted pick as that CB will be only on the team for five years, vice taking a player that has more of an opportunity to stay on the team longer than his rookie deal. First round picks should be used on players that are impact players as well as being on your team for 8-10 years (or more), so it would make more sense to draft a CB in the lower rounds. Constantly replacing DB's every four to five years is a terrible move. I highly doubt T. White will be resigned after his rookie deal ends, so the Bills will have to go through this again in four to five years. When will they ever learn?

Edited April 28, 2017 by Jerry Jabber

[Chilly]

Since I was curious, I took a look at # of CBs drafted in the 1st round by team since 1999:

 

[26CornerBlitz]

IMO, the Bills wasted too many first round draft picks on CB’s over the years as they are very rarely resigned (Winfield, Clements, Gilmore). If a first round CB does well in his rookie contract, his next one is usually too high for the Bills to keep him, so the way I look at it, it’s a wasted pick as that CB will be only on the team for five years, vice taking a player that has more of an opportunity to stay on the team longer than his rookie deal. First round picks should be used on players that are impact players as well as being on your team for 8-10 years (or more), so it would make more sense to draft a CB in the lower rounds. Constantly replacing DB's every four to five years is a terrible move. I highly doubt T. White will be resigned after his rookie deal ends, so the Bills will have to go through this again in four to five years. When will they ever learn?

 

Seems as if you're resigned to this way of thinking.

[Samwell Tarly]

Only if he's no good. Even if you only get 1 contract out of him it's better than a bust or career ended by injuries.

[Jerry Jabber]

Only if he's no good. Even if you only get 1 contract out of him it's better than a bust or career ended by injuries.

 

That is a good point. We all know not every pick is going to pan out, but teams have to be able to build around players. When you're constantly replacing first round draft picks every four to five years because you're either drafting DB's and RB's, you're creating more holes on your team instead of making your team better.

[buffalopdc]

5 years is an long career in the NFL. If we get a guy that plays well through a rookie contract that a huge win for a team. The upside of this pick in my opinion is that you get a player potentially on par with Gilmore for a lot less money. Also the fact that we picked him up late in the first the rookie wage for him is reasonable. There is only so much cap to go around and Gilmore was just too heavy of a cap hit.

Edited April 28, 2017 by buffalopdc

[Jerry Jabber]

5 years is an long career in the NFL. If we get a guy that plays well through a rookie contract that a huge win for a team. The upside of this pick in my opinion is that you get a player potentially on par with Gilmore for a lot less money. Also the fact that we picked him up late in the first the rookie wage for him is reasonable. There is only so much cap to go around and Gilmore was just too heavy of a cap hit.

 

I thought using a first rounder on Gilmore was potentially a waste as he most likely would leave for big money, which in fact he did. You can get good DB's in the lower rounds (3-7), why waste a first on a guy that's most likely going to be around for a short time? Guys like Wood and Dareus have been around for a while now and they were first round picks. I'd rather see first round picks used on positions such as QB, DE, OT, LB, WR (just as long as he's not a small speed guy like Parrish, Price etc...). DB's are overvalued in the NFL.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Jerry Jabber

[Alphadawg7]

IMO, the Bills wasted too many first round draft picks on CB’s over the years as they are very rarely resigned (Winfield, Clements, Gilmore). If a first round CB does well in his rookie contract, his next one is usually too high for the Bills to keep him, so the way I look at it, it’s a wasted pick as that CB will be only on the team for five years, vice taking a player that has more of an opportunity to stay on the team longer than his rookie deal. First round picks should be used on players that are impact players as well as being on your team for 8-10 years (or more), so it would make more sense to draft a CB in the lower rounds. Constantly replacing DB's every four to five years is a terrible move. I highly doubt T. White will be resigned after his rookie deal ends, so the Bills will have to go through this again in four to five years. When will they ever learn?

 

Come on man...Winfield and Clements were 15 and 12 years ago. It has literally nothing to do with this team. Not same owners, not same FO, not same philosophy, not same coaches, not same roster. I mean it has ZERO to do with anything we just did.

 

More importantly, he also missing all the context of what really happened. I mean Nate Clements became the highest paid defensive player in NFL history at that time when he left here, and he wasn't worth it. In fact, he never came close to living up to that value of that contract. That is why we didn't pay him, not because he is a DB, but because he was grossly over paid and not worth the contract. Same with Gilmore...he got a contract that out weighed his performance. They had been trying to resign him, but he wanted to be over paid. So they made the CORRECT choice and let him walk. In exchange we signed multiple other players like Hyde with the cap room saved, picked up an extra first rounder and extra 3rd rounder, and drafted a top prospect to replace him who looks like a leader and can actually make a tackle too. Not to mention, Gilmore struggles to stay healthy.

 

So this isn't a draft em and don't resign em philosophy just because we didn't resign ones 15 years ago and then avoided over paying one this offseason. Its about making the correct decision at the time they become FA's regardless of the player. Like when Byrd got over paid and was an awful signing by the Saints.

[BringBackOrton]

Letting Gilmore walk and drafting White stings, like many said it would.

[Alphadawg7]

Letting Gilmore walk and drafting White stings, like many said it would.

 

So you prefer to have Gilmore instead of guys we signed like Hyde with his cap room savings along with White, an extra first, and an extra 3rd? I mean we have a lot instead of Gilmore right now and his over paid contract. I would prefer White and Hyde over Gilmore...and thats before I factor in the extra 1st and 3rd and the other players we signed with the cap room from not over paying Gilmore.

[Jerry Jabber]

 

Come on man...Winfield and Clements were 15 and 12 years ago. It has literally nothing to do with this team. Not same owners, not same FO, not same philosophy, not same coaches, not same roster. I mean it has ZERO to do with anything we just did.

 

More importantly, he also missing all the context of what really happened. I mean Nate Clements became the highest paid defensive player in NFL history at that time when he left here, and he wasn't worth it. In fact, he never came close to living up to that value of that contract. That is why we didn't pay him, not because he is a DB, but because he was grossly over paid and not worth the contract. Same with Gilmore...he got a contract that out weighed his performance. They had been trying to resign him, but he wanted to be over paid. So they made the CORRECT choice and let him walk. In exchange we signed multiple other players like Hyde with the cap room saved, picked up an extra first rounder and extra 3rd rounder, and drafted a top prospect to replace him who looks like a leader and can actually make a tackle too. Not to mention, Gilmore struggles to stay healthy.

 

So this isn't a draft em and don't resign em philosophy just because we didn't resign ones 15 years ago and then avoided over paying one this offseason. Its about making the correct decision at the time they become FA's regardless of the player. Like when Byrd got over paid and was an awful signing by the Saints.

"Come on man...Winfield and Clements were 15 and 12 years ago. It has literally nothing to do with this team. Not same owners, not same FO, not same philosophy, not same coaches, not same roster. I mean it has ZERO to do with anything we just did." If you're referring to trading back in the draft to gain more picks, I applaud the move and it's a move I felt the team should have made even before the draft. http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/193251-should-the-bills-move-back-in-the-draft-to-stockpile-picks/ But I'm referring to using a first rounder on DB's and apparently nothing has changed over the years.

 

 

"I mean Nate Clements became the highest paid defensive player in NFL history at that time when he left here, and he wasn't worth it. In fact, he never came close to living up to that value of that contract. That is why we didn't pay him, not because he is a DB, but because he was grossly over paid and not worth the contract. Same with Gilmore...he got a contract that out weighed his performance." That's part of my argument, DB's command big money after their rookie deals, so that's another reason why it's not a smart move to use a high pick on one. DB's and RB's should be taken in the lower rounds as those guys command more money after their rookie deals and have a shorter playing career. I thought using a first rounder on Gilmore was potentially a waste as he most likely would leave for big money, which in fact he did. You can get good DB's in the lower rounds (3-7), why waste a first on a guy that's most likely going to be around for a short time? Guys like Wood and Dareus have been around for a while now and they were first round picks. I'd rather see first round picks used on positions such as QB, DE, OT, LB, WR (just as long as he's not a small speed guy like Parrish, Price etc...). DB's are overvalued in the NFL.

 

"Like when Byrd got over paid and was an awful signing by the Saints." Byrd was replaced by a fourth rounder [searcy], so it didn't require a first or second rounder to replace him. First round picks should not be as expendable as the Bills have made them out to be. You can't build a solid foundation when you're constantly going through your top draft picks every four to five years, it's a waste and it's gotten the Bills nowhere except an average of 6-10 over the past 17 years.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Jerry Jabber

[BringBackOrton]

 

So you prefer to have Gilmore instead of guys we signed like Hyde with his cap room savings along with White, an extra first, and an extra 3rd? I mean we have a lot instead of Gilmore right now and his over paid contract. I would prefer White and Hyde over Gilmore...and thats before I factor in the extra 1st and 3rd and the other players we signed with the cap room from not over paying Gilmore.

We could've afforded Hyde and Gilmore.

 

And I would have rather had a QB. But White has nothing to do with the trade.

Edited April 28, 2017 by jmc12290

[Big C]

We could've afforded Hyde and Gilmore.

 

And I would have rather had a QB. But White has nothing to do with the trade.

 

White has much to do with the trade. And tell me, how would you feel if we stayed at 10 and picked Lattimore instead, which reports have said was the plan until the trade went through?

[The Frankish Reich]

Using a high pick on a CB is generally smart because good free agent CBs are ridiculously expensive (see Gilmore). Safeties? Not so much.

[jr1]

he's a dynamic punt returner. I'm not upset with the pick

[John from Riverside]

IMO, the Bills wasted too many first round draft picks on CB’s over the years as they are very rarely resigned (Winfield, Clements, Gilmore). If a first round CB does well in his rookie contract, his next one is usually too high for the Bills to keep him, so the way I look at it, it’s a wasted pick as that CB will be only on the team for five years, vice taking a player that has more of an opportunity to stay on the team longer than his rookie deal. First round picks should be used on players that are impact players as well as being on your team for 8-10 years (or more), so it would make more sense to draft a CB in the lower rounds. Constantly replacing DB's every four to five years is a terrible move. I highly doubt T. White will be resigned after his rookie deal ends, so the Bills will have to go through this again in four to five years. When will they ever learn?

Follow the money

 

How much did Gilmore sign for again?

[njbuff]

I am not worried about who the Bills draft in the first round.

 

They need to make their hay the rest of this draft. FOR ONCE.

[ndirish1978]

This couldn't have been a post in the draft thread? It really needed it's own special thread?

[Dark]

So the gist of your argument is:

• Good corners are valued and often overpaid after their rookie contract so it is a bad idea to get talented corners in the first round of the draft and pay them less for their most productive years?
• Cornerbacks are overrated, yet teams commonly overpay for them in a league that has heavily shifted toward a pass heavy philosophy?
• We have the best quarterback in perhaps the history of the NFL in our division and we should patchwork our secondary with late round picks?

 

Gotcha.

[Cash]

 

Come on man...Winfield and Clements were 15 and 12 years ago. It has literally nothing to do with this team. Not same owners, not same FO, not same philosophy, not same coaches, not same roster. I mean it has ZERO to do with anything we just did.

 

More importantly, he also missing all the context of what really happened. I mean Nate Clements became the highest paid defensive player in NFL history at that time when he left here, and he wasn't worth it. In fact, he never came close to living up to that value of that contract. That is why we didn't pay him, not because he is a DB, but because he was grossly over paid and not worth the contract. Same with Gilmore...he got a contract that out weighed his performance. They had been trying to resign him, but he wanted to be over paid. So they made the CORRECT choice and let him walk. In exchange we signed multiple other players like Hyde with the cap room saved, picked up an extra first rounder and extra 3rd rounder, and drafted a top prospect to replace him who looks like a leader and can actually make a tackle too. Not to mention, Gilmore struggles to stay healthy.

 

So this isn't a draft em and don't resign em philosophy just because we didn't resign ones 15 years ago and then avoided over paying one this offseason. Its about making the correct decision at the time they become FA's regardless of the player. Like when Byrd got over paid and was an awful signing by the Saints.

 

I think a lot of this actually serves the OP's argument. When you look at each move in and of itself, almost every move is a good one:

 

• Draft Winfield - good player
• Draft Clements - good player
• Let Winfield walk - (this one was a mistake - matching or beating his Vikings contract wouldn't have broken the bank and he remained really good for Minny)
• Let Clements walk - the right call; he wasn't worth that contract
• Draft McKelvin - seemed like a good idea at the time, but while he wasn't a total bust, you'd want better out of that high a pick
• Re-sign McKelvin - didn't have much outside interest and signed for pretty low money for a starting CB
• Cut McKelvin - his performance tailed off, starting to lose his athleticism, and maybe didn't buy in to the new scheme
• Draft Gilmore - good player (debatable how good)
• Let Gilmore walk - probably not worth that contract (I think he won't be, but time will tell)
• Draft White - seems like a good player from what I've read

But for all of that, we've stayed a middling to bad team for the entire time. Even though most of those individual moves were good decisions, they didn't lead to overall success. And that's what concerns me.

 

I get the logic of "CBs are expensive, so it makes some sense to draft good ones high, get good play on a cheap rookie deal, then let them walk and replace with another high pick." But I think that approach would work much better for an established playoff team with most of its foundational players in place. For a team like ours that's been perpetually rebuilding, I would much prefer we use our high picks to try to get (and keep!) those foundational players. Even the Maybin pick, as bad as it was, at least had potential - if Maybin had been a good player, we likely would've re-signed him to a big bucks deal, and we'd have had a stud pass rusher DE for 10 years or so.

 

Not every high pick will pan out. Some will be total busts like Maybin, some will be absolute studs like Jim Kelly or Bruce Smith, but most will fall into 2 broad categories: Okay-but-disappointing players like McKelvin or Whitner, or pretty-good-but-not-stars like Eric Wood or Gilmore. I think it's important when looking at overall team building to value some positions more than others in the high rounds. Because if you're not going to be willing to pay a "pretty good" CB when his contract is up, but will pay a "pretty good" LT, the LT is worth more in the long run.

 

I do agree that it's not entirely fair to judge this front office on the actions of previous front offices, but I also think there's legit cause for concern here.