Hogan and Gilly Prove Bills Scouting Superiority

[Coach Tuesday]

Can you name a single player who was "forced out" of Buffalo by posters at this site. Or by any fans? Anywhere? Ever?

 

According to PTR, Ryan Fitzpatrick.

[NewEra]

 

I agree on the QB situation, he put together the worst trio of QB's I have ever seen in not one, but two consecutive training camps (Manuel, Lewis, Tuel) If not for Orton luckily being available late and Rex pushing for Tyrod the QB play from the Bills would be horrifically bad. Other than that Whaley has burned a lot of draft picks targeting players and putting together top heavy rosters with limited depth and gaping holes at certain positions. This has been done despite getting the Bills into cap issues despite no playoff success or big expenditure at QB.

 

His record speaks for itself the last 7 years, and he just isn't a good enough GM. He is a good scout, but as I said there is plenty more to the job that he struggles with. Being better than Russ Brandon or Marv Levy doesn't mean jack squat.

We have no idea who our QB would've been last year if we didn't sign TT. He would've made a move for someone. Can't use Rex's influence on signing TT and include the fact that those 2 years of TT would've been Ej Manuel and only Ej Manuel. He would've acquired someone else for st least one of the seasons

[Boatdrinks]

It didn't have to come to that.

No it didn't have to. It did because they chose to. They didn't care about those particular players or think them irreplaceable enough to take a more expensive course of action preventing it. In short , it happened because they didn't want to keep them past a certain rate of pay.

[Chris66]

It really isn't. They have the best QB of all time, the best coach of all time, they're paying the QB less than market value, and they've been running the same system for 10+ years. Everything else is just extra. I have a theory that many players drafted by New England wouldn't have worked anywhere else. I mean before last year I'll bet most people would have told you Gronk was the 2nd most important played on the team, but then they won a Super Bowl without him. There is no 2nd most important player. It's Brady and Belichick, full stop.

you are so off base in this post.

 

First off BB doesnt have a system. Unless that system is to be flexible and adapt.

 

BB system through the years have consistef of everythinh from power run game ,to wide open passing, 2 te and everything in between.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

I agree. Sal M said on the radio last night that Whaley may be relieved of his GM duties after the draft.

...makes zero sense.....guy has a pretty good knack finding talent when guys get injured or released....why fire him right after the draft when you're trying to shape the final 53?....off season makes more sense IMO......

[Success]

you are so off base in this post.

 

First off BB doesnt have a system. Unless that system is to be flexible and adapt.

 

BB system through the years have consistef of everythinh from power run game ,to wide open passing, 2 te and everything in between.

His essential point is spot on.

 

BB's job as a gm is made infinitely easier by the fact that he has the goat QB, who works at a discount. He's able to routinely let star players walk in a way that other teams with average Qb's could never overcome.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

His essential point is spot on.

 

BB's job as a gm is made infinitely easier by the fact that he has the goat QB, who works at a discount. He's able to routinely let star players walk in a way that other teams with average Qb's could never overcome.

 

....who would ever know that a 6th would be GOAT of his era ?.....but BB saw and made use of talent that apparently 31 teams did not see.....at the same time, two instances come to mind when BB did not have Brady and adapted quite well as Chris66 said about his ability......loses Brady for the year and goes 11-5 with Cassel (shockingly NOT good enough to make playoffs)....3-1 with greenhorn Brissett with Brady and Jimmy G out also...guy just has "IT".............

Edited April 25, 2017 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[LABILLBACKER]

you are so off base in this post.

 

First off BB doesnt have a system. Unless that system is to be flexible and adapt.

 

BB system through the years have consistef of everythinh from power run game ,to wide open passing, 2 te and everything in between.

Bill does have a system. It's called Tom Brady.

[Success]

 

....who would ever know that a 6th would be GOAT of his era ?.....but BB saw and made use of talent that apparently 31 teams did not see.....at the same time, two instances come to mind when BB did not have Brady and adapted quite well as Chris66 said about his ability......loses Brady for the year and goes 11-5 with Cassel (shockingly NOT good enough to make playoffs)....3-1 with greenhorn Brissett with Brady and Jimmy G out also...guy just has "IT".............

Well, his coaching covers for gm mistakes also. I'm convinced that you could put he and Brady with any roster in the nfl at this point. And they'd make a deep playoff run.

 

A bit too much is made of that 11-5, though. That team was undefeated the previous year.

[HappyDays]

 

....who would ever know that a 6th would be GOAT of his era ?.....but BB saw and made use of talent that apparently 31 teams did not see.....at the same time, two instances come to mind when BB did not have Brady and adapted quite well as Chris66 said about his ability......loses Brady for the year and goes 11-5 with Cassel (shockingly NOT good enough to make playoffs)....3-1 with greenhorn Brissett with Brady and Jimmy G out also...guy just has "IT".............

I think Belichick is more responsible for their success than Brady. It really was just the perfect storm that they ended up together. Like Brady is just an average deep thrower but you'd never know he was average at anything because Belichick is a master of playing to strengths. This is why so many former NE players have limited success on other teams.

[BigBuff423]

In November 2012 Hogan was cut by the Dolphins, Bills pick him up for free in October on a modest contract he contributes although minimally for years here and leaves. The Pats pay an average of 4 million per year for the guy we got for a minimum contract yet Whaley is a moron Hoodie is a genius. In September 2015 Dolphins release Mike Gillislee, Bills pick him up for absolutely nothing get a few years of production and a bunch of touchdowns. He leaves with a replacement already in place. Pats give us a 5th round pick in a crazy deep draft and pay him ten times what we did, Whaley is an idiot Belichick is the second coming. In 2012 The Bills draft S. Gilmore at 10 give him a 4 year 12 million dollar contract. He's a good player that no one would confuse with Richard Sherman, Patrick Peterson, or Revis (maybe now but not in his prime). From 2012-2016 Pats draft 8 DBs, not one of them got anything close to a 5 year 65 million dollar contract but someone did, yup Stephon Gilmore draftee of the "worst GM in the league". Whaley may not be the fav of local media (which I assume is due to the fact that he has something to do with crushing their former sources) or some percentage of fans, but he clearly has some major admirers in New England, and in the front offices of many other NFL teams I'd bet. Be careful what you wish for Bills fans, Whaley is by far the best GM that's been here since Bill Polian and this may be the year he proves to be in the upper 20% if we get 2 or 3 contributors in this draft which is very realistic.

These are all fair points and good ones....I believe Whaley is better than most want to give him credit for, but I also believe there are certain areas - such as QB - he needs to improve tremendously to be considered "good". So, I'd give him a 6 out of 10 - with one more year to prove he get himself to at least a 7.5, which puts him in the upper third if he gets there...

[wilcoam]

I'm neither bashing or rabidly supporting our GM, however I must point out that gaining 2-3 contributors in a draft, every year, is the minimum of what a team should get, its nothing to celebrate, and it does not put DW in the upper echelon of any GM rankings

 

Except we didn't get even that last year, so DW drafting failed us in 2016, and it reflected in yet another unsuccessful campaign, true by 2017, 2018 and or 2019, we might look back at last years draft, and longterm the anyalsis might be rosier, just short term it was an abject failure

 

As for DW having a year to prove his worth, talk to me when our team wins 10 games, until then his record is nothing but potential, the kind of potential a CJ Spiller once had, you know one great leap in 2014 with a 9-7 record, but since then, its a nothing burger, could be out of football soon, all the off season moves and so called scouting brilliance amounted to less success not more, lots of hype, no end delivery, no real dividends, not much return on capitol yet...

 

Just saying

Edited April 26, 2017 by wilcoam

[MPT]

Not many people would dispute that Whaley has a knack for finding cheap free agents that produce.

 

Unfortunately, in terms of the responsibilities of a GM, that skill is tertiary to drafting and retaining skilled players. In those two areas, he is bottom of the barrel.

[spartan19]

I'm neither bashing or rabidly supporting our GM, however I must point out that gaining 2-3 contributors in a draft, every year, is the minimum of what a team should get, its nothing to celebrate, and it does not put DW in the upper echelon of any GM rankings

 

Except we didn't get even that last year, so DW drafting failed us in 2016, and it reflected in yet another unsuccessful campaign, true by 2017, 2018 and or 2019, we might look back at last years draft, and longterm the anyalsis might be rosier, just short term it was an abject failure

 

As for DW having a year to prove his worth, talk to me when our team wins 10 games, until then his record is nothing but potential, the kind of potential a CJ Spiller once had, you know one great leap in 2014 with a 9-7 record, but since then, its a nothing burger, could be out of football soon, all the off season moves and so called scouting brilliance amounted to less success not more, lots of hype, no end delivery, no real dividends, not much return on capitol yet...

 

Just saying

..and we have a winner. For a franchise that hasn't won, Whaley takes too many chances with his draft picks. To summarize last years:

 

Shaq- Many teams were scared away by his bad shoulder, the Bills "knew it wasn't an issue" until he needed surgery

Ragland - bad luck on his leg, but teams were scared away by an enlarged aorta

washington - suspended for his bowl game for solicitation.

Jones - Defintion of project

Williams - too early to tell

Listenbee - Out for season, but drafted anyway.

Seymour - Contributed.

 

How do you defend a GM that needed talent, to chances on 5 of their 7 picks?

[Chris66]

His essential point is spot on.

 

BB's job as a gm is made infinitely easier by the fact that he has the goat QB, who works at a discount. He's able to routinely let star players walk in a way that other teams with average Qb's could never overcome.

I read it differently. I took it as Bradys success comes from Bill using the same system for last 15 years. Pats system seems to change every 2-3 years. System today isnt the same as 11 which wasnt the same as 07 and so on.

 

I think Bills coaching flexibility has allowed Bill the GM to be more flexible. If it was just having a good qb. Saints would be fighting the Packers for nfc title every year.

 

Also Brady doesnt really work at a discount. Pats paid him 30 million up front last year and paid him 28 million in 14.

If Pats ever lost Caserio. I wouldnt mind Whaley as Director of Player Personnel

Edited April 26, 2017 by Chris66

[Philly McButterpants]

Why all the hand wringing by the BN writers over losing these three. Did i miss the Bills winning 2 of the last 3 superbowl's with this awesome array of talent?

 

Gilmore was/is over-rated, Hogan was a good kid, but hardly a game-breaker, and Gillislee is a dime-a-dozen backup hardly worth $4mm next season.

 

Not sure why everyone is up in arms over this . . . When any of those 3 are league or SB MVP, then i'll lose some sleep over it.

[PromoTheRobot]

Why all the hand wringing by the BN writers over losing these three. Did i miss the Bills winning 2 of the last 3 superbowl's with this awesome array of talent?

 

Gilmore was/is over-rated, Hogan was a good kid, but hardly a game-breaker, and Gillislee is a dime-a-dozen backup hardly worth $4mm next season.

 

Not sure why everyone is up in arms over this . . . When any of those 3 are league or SB MVP, then i'll lose some sleep over it.

Because Patriots.

[Nostradumbass]

I think Whaley is above average at pro personnel evaluation. That is definitely his strength IMO. If he were our pro personnel director, I think he'd be one of the best in the NFL. As a GM, he has been average to this point, IMO.

 

As for his drafting, I think he is average to good, not great. He has his hits and misses, like every GM, and at times it seems like he is better at evaluating/drafting certain positions compared to others (but that could also be the scouting dept. or a # of other factors, too).

There has been so much constant scheme/coaching change its hard to truly judge his drafting as of now. We've had a ridiculous number of different DC's/OC's/HC's in his time here.

 

 

I do think Whaley is the best the Bills have had in quite a long time, but to be fair that bad isn't set very high.

 

Personally, I would like to see the Bills actually keep the same coaching staff for a good 4-5 years and see what they can build. Bad teams stay bad by constantly firing coaches and changing directions. I think we can almost difinitely say at this point that we know constant upheaval & coaching change doesn't work... It'd be nice to try something new for a change.

This is a really good post

 

I agree Whaley is really at strong talent evaluation

 

What he needs is somebody who understands the cap a little better, gets the theory behind gaming your FA process for comp picks, has strong decisions with FA tenders and so forth

 

When Whaley inevitably gets fired I'm not sure out talent identification process will be upgraded