Hogan and Gilly Prove Bills Scouting Superiority

[JM2009]

 

Whaley is a good scout but a bad General manager. He is great at finding individual talent, but as far as putting a team together, managing the cap, running a draft, and working with and leading others...he isn't up to the job.

I agree. Sal M said on the radio last night that Whaley may be relieved of his GM duties after the draft.

[dave mcbride]

After further review, I'm still not very impressed with the eagle D

 

1 September 11 Cleveland Browns W 29–10 1–0

2 September 19 at Chicago Bears W 29–14 2–0

3 September 25 Pittsburgh Steelers W 34–3 3–0

4 Bye

5 October 9 at Detroit Lions L 23–24 3–1

6 October 16 at Washington Redskins L 20–27

7 October 23 Minnesota Vikings W 21–10 4–2

8 October 30 at Dallas Cowboys L 23–29 (OT) 4–3

9 November 6 at New York Giants L 23–28 4–4

10 November 13 Atlanta Falcons W 24–15 5–4

11 November 20 at Seattle Seahawks L 15–26 5–5

12 November 28 Green Bay Packers L 13–27 5–6

13 December 4 at Cincinnati Bengals L 14–32 5–7

14 December 11 Washington Redskins L 22–27 5–8

15 December 18 at Baltimore Ravens L 26–27 5-9

16 December 22 New York Giants W 24–19 6–9

17 January 1 Dallas Cowboys W 27–13 7–9

 

They faced 3 bad offenses in Cleveland, Chicago and the Vikings. The ravens weren't all that good in O, Rex's D shut them down minus 1 big play. Cincinnati put up 32 without Aj green. I remember watching the steeler game and was throughly impressed. Didn't see the Atlanta game but it looked like another great result. They gave up 24+ points in 9 games, albeit vs some good offenses (and a few that were just ok). In 2014 Schwartz we gave up 24+ 3 times all year (24 to Denver, 26 to Oakland and 37 to NE) and finished 4th in points against and 4th in yards against. Sure, the schedule is different but the results are the only thing that really matters. Either you get it done or you don't. The 2014 Bills D was much better than 2016 eagle D.

I'm a huge believer in FO, so you're not gonna convince me. But that's OK--it's fine to disagree. Re points, you have to factor in turnovers that generate points for the opponent, opponents' starting yardline positions, etc. Raw points isn't good enough. The Eagles D was good on a lot of metrics: 2nd in time per opponents' drive, 4th in plays per drive, 12th in yards per drive, 10th in points per drive, and 9th in turnovers forced. And they played the hardest offensive schedule in the league.

Edited April 25, 2017 by dave mcbride

[BillsfanAZ]

But yet the bills are no better than the day whaley was promoted. You don't let production like MG walk for that salary. Same with Hogan. There is no vision by whaley. You keep Hogan let woods walk. not bad. You keep MG, knowing that when hes been in theres been no drop between him and McCoy. Its always 1 step forward and 3 steps back with this team. If people think a RB with fumbling issues, that looked below average last year is going to fill MG shoes your mistaken. Not to mention McCoy is pushing 30, and who knows when father time will hit him.

No drop in production from McCoy to MG? You are kidding right? I liked Hogan and MG but I dont blame the Bills for not matching the offers.

[NewEra]

I'm a huge believer in FO, so you're not gonna convince me. But that's OK--it's fine to disagree. Re points, you have to factor in turnovers that generate points for the opponent, opponents' starting yardline positions, etc. Raw points isn't good enough. The Eagles D was good on a lot of metrics: 2nd in time per opponents' drive, 4th in plays per drive, 12th in yards per drive, 10th in points per drive, and 9th in turnovers forced. And they played the hardest offensive schedule in the league.

I hear you. I had mentioned that the link didn't work so I couldn't see the advanced stats and that advanced stats can definitely shed light on some things. I just thought they'd be better than they were and weren't nearly as good as the 2014 Bills D

[JM2009]

No drop in production from McCoy to MG? You are kidding right? I liked Hogan and MG but I dont blame the Bills for not matching the offers.

It didn't have to come to that.

[BillsVet]

I think Whaley is above average at pro personnel evaluation. That is definitely his strength IMO. If he were our pro personnel director, I think he'd be one of the best in the NFL. As a GM, he has been average to this point, IMO.

 

As for his drafting, I think he is average to good, not great. He has his hits and misses, like every GM, and at times it seems like he is better at evaluating/drafting certain positions compared to others (but that could also be the scouting dept. or a # of other factors, too).

There has been so much constant scheme/coaching change its hard to truly judge his drafting as of now. We've had a ridiculous number of different DC's/OC's/HC's in his time here.

 

 

I do think Whaley is the best the Bills have had in quite a long time, but to be fair that bad isn't set very high.

 

Personally, I would like to see the Bills actually keep the same coaching staff for a good 4-5 years and see what they can build. Bad teams stay bad by constantly firing coaches and changing directions. I think we can almost difinitely say at this point that we know constant upheaval & coaching change doesn't work... It'd be nice to try something new for a change.

 

Whaley, unfortunately for homers, cannot be judged on some bargain bin pickups in UFA. His job is to assemble a roster and anticipate what the team will need. Not an easy job, but for someone who's been in an NFL front office for 20 years, it's his responsibility. That, and have a good relationship with the coaches.

 

 

I don't understand...isn't it Belichick (and/or Ernie, who is there because of Belichick) who sets these trends to develop mismatches or to skirt the rules? You can't be saying that if Belichick was gone, we would find out that it is actually Kraft or someone in administration who are creating these football trends, can you?

 

And (not to you BillsVet, but to other posters) the idea that a GM is not getting players a coach wants, but just grabbing who he thinks is best, is ridiculous and I don't think any organization in the league works that way. In some places, the coach's voice may be stronger, in others the GM may have final say, but they all work together. It would be counter-productive to draft players that definitely do not fit a coaches scheme. So, when looking at Whaley, you cannot discount the coaching changes.

 

The following weren't draft picks (it is hard to tell with draft picks) but would Whaley have brought in Harvin, IK, Salas, or maybe even Tyrod if Rex wasn't the coach? Those were players Rex worked with and wanted and Whaley got them. And even Shaq Lawson, Rex told him months before the draft that he was going to pick him. Whaley and the staff may have been totally on board because he was good value where he went, but he was a guy Rex wanted. And I hear posters use Percy Harvin as a knock on Whaley when he obviously brought him in because Rex wanted him. I'm not saying Whaley is the best GM ever, but the posters who claim that 3 coaching changes doesn't affect who the GM picks or how many of those picks are still on the roster are not being realistic. And two of those coaches were not the choice of said GM either.

 

I've never said it isn't Belichick. But he's the one who develops their strategy. In their first 3 SB wins the team was very much a defensive first club, yet over the years they've become more offensive via the pass. Belichick adapted to the league's rules changes and knew what he had at QB. I'd say that transition started in 2007 when the acquired Moss and Welker. Because the previous season they had the likes of Reche Caldwell to go up against Indianapolis in the 2006 AFC Championship game.

 

They have synchronization between personnel and game-planning in large part because the same guy is running both. People can say their drafts aren't phenomenal, but their end result is.

[Billy Zabka]

He doesn't defend every single move. Exaggerating doesn't make your point any more valid, it just makes you look like you have to make stuff up in order to get your point across. Do you think we had good enough talent across the board to make the playoffs the last 3 years? We didn't make the playoffs because our roster sucked. We didn't make the playoffs because our HC sucks and our QB wasn't good enough. He put together a very solid roster. He just didn't get us a qb or a HC. Two MAJOR pieces to the puzzle and he deserves all the criticism he receives for that.

 

I agree on the QB situation, he put together the worst trio of QB's I have ever seen in not one, but two consecutive training camps (Manuel, Lewis, Tuel) If not for Orton luckily being available late and Rex pushing for Tyrod the QB play from the Bills would be horrifically bad. Other than that Whaley has burned a lot of draft picks targeting players and putting together top heavy rosters with limited depth and gaping holes at certain positions. This has been done despite getting the Bills into cap issues despite no playoff success or big expenditure at QB.

 

His record speaks for itself the last 7 years, and he just isn't a good enough GM. He is a good scout, but as I said there is plenty more to the job that he struggles with. Being better than Russ Brandon or Marv Levy doesn't mean jack squat.

[Madd Charlie]

I agree. Sal M said on the radio last night that Whaley may be relieved of his GM duties after the draft.

Where did Sal say he got that info from? I couldn't imagine it was from Pegula or McDermott so who else would be making that call. Everything that I've deciphered from their interviews seems to say everything is going smooth. Pegula so far has made all these type decisions at the end of the season, not the beginning. Rex asked to be fired early so he doesn't count

[What a Tuel]

 

This from a guy covered in Whaley DNA . You constantly and vigorously defend every single move the Bills make despite 17 years of failure. That shows you have no credibility and very limited football knowledge.

 

You want to be a blind cheerleader for OBD then fine go ahead, but why not let the grownups with valid criticisms of this failed organization have their adult conversations and you can sit at the kiddie table with your pom poms.

 

"Grownups"? , now the people complaining repeatedly about firing Whaley are talking about being a grownup. Might as well start calling him Failey!

 

I'd be curious to see what the record is for people thinking Whaley was ridiculous for letting Karlos go last year. Those "grown ups" surely had a temper tantrum on that. Is he even on a team anymore?

Edited April 25, 2017 by What a Tuel

[BillsfanAZ]

It didn't have to come to that.

I understand people saying that the Bills could have used 2nd round tenders on both players so nobody would sign them to an offer sheet. That would have paid each player a mil more each season just so they are less attractive to other teams but at both times the Bills were not in great salary cap shape. The Bills and the salary cap management is a whole other story. The Bills assessed a value to each player and another team chose to pay them more.

[JM2009]

Where did Sal say he got that info from? I couldn't imagine it was from Pegula or McDermott so who else would be making that call. Everything that I've deciphered from their interviews seems to say everything is going smooth. Pegula so far has made all these type decisions at the end of the season, not the beginning. Rex asked to be fired early so he doesn't count

It came up on Bob Matthew's show and Sal said he had a strong hunch that Whaley will be relieved of his GM duties.

[dave mcbride]

I hear you. I had mentioned that the link didn't work so I couldn't see the advanced stats and that advanced stats can definitely shed light on some things. I just thought they'd be better than they were and weren't nearly as good as the 2014 Bills D

Well, the Bills finished second that year according to FO, so they were better!

[jumbalaya]

Was thinking about this last night....

 

for all of the tar and feather posts....you actually have to be able to FIND the talent nobody else wants in order for other teams to come calling poaching them.

What is the patriots player development and retention strategy?

maybe the need to draw on some of these free agents is also indicative on how many holes on always on this roster through bad drafts and bad cap management.

[Mr. WEO]

 

I meant to type running out of time. My bad. I'll fix it. Thanks.

 

And I do wonder how Gronk would have done had we taken him. We haven't been able to work in a tight end since Pete.

 

you said taken Gronk instead of Brady.

[TC in St. Louis]

 

you said taken Gronk instead of Brady.

 

I meant New England. Brady = New England.

[Real McClappy]

 

I wonder sometimes how great Gronk would have been had we taken him instead of New England.

 

If Gronk was a Bill, almost every member here would crucify him and call him glass like they do Watkins and force him out of here.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Real McCoy

[Mr. WEO]

 

I meant New England. Brady = New England.

 

oh...

 

If Gronk was a Bill, almost every member here would crucify him and call him glass like they do Watkins and force him out of here.

 

this would never happen. He would be properly worshipped as the purest distillation of Buffalo.

 

Can you name a single player who was "forced out" of Buffalo by posters at this site. Or by any fans? Anywhere? Ever?

Edited April 25, 2017 by Mr. WEO

[Matt_In_NH]

Not being able to keep them due to salary cap reasons proves cap inferiority.

[T-Bomb]

What is their player development and retention strategy?

 

You have to win to have one of those...

[HappyDays]

 

It's way more nuanced why NE wins...

It really isn't. They have the best QB of all time, the best coach of all time, they're paying the QB less than market value, and they've been running the same system for 10+ years. Everything else is just extra. I have a theory that many players drafted by New England wouldn't have worked anywhere else. I mean before last year I'll bet most people would have told you Gronk was the 2nd most important played on the team, but then they won a Super Bowl without him. There is no 2nd most important player. It's Brady and Belichick, full stop.