Andy Benoit on Bills and draft

[transplantbillsfan]

Can someone define "pure pocket passer" for me, please?

[Big Turk]

I like him too. I think he's right about WR, which has me thinking ... Davis: the most talented WR in the draft.

I'd take Howard...force defenses to stay in base with Clay and Howard on the field at the same time and then create huge mismatches with them...New England style

 

A great TE can create more mismatches on the field than a great WR

Edited April 25, 2017 by matter2003

[John from Riverside]

He said "he's not an anticipation passer." That sounds a lot like can't to me.

Its def not a strength of his

 

While point this out I think it should be pointed out that there are a LOT of qbs that start in the NFL that cannot throw with anticipation.....or cant read defenses.....or cant throw deep....or this or that

 

That is why finding top 5 qbs are so hard to do

[PolishDave]

He has to be a pure pocket passer if he wants to last in this league. Simple as that. Oh, he'll continue to have flashes while he makes amazing, scintillating plays with his legs, but if a QB cannot operate from the pocket he will not be able to utilize the entire field and he becomes too easy to defend as a result. Defenses are stocked with great athletes and smart DCs to begin with and if you can't force them to defend the entire space it plays right into their hands.

He HAS to be a pure pocket passer?

 

I think there are some quarterbacks who disagree with that premise. Russ Wilson is probably the best example. I don't see the Seahawks ditching him anytime soon.

 

I prefer a pure pocket passer also. I would rather have a guy like Bledsoe (good years) to be honest. But if you are going to get a pure pocket passer, you have to make sure that guys is so much better at executing the passing game that he at least makes up for the other benefits you get with having Tyrod.

 

I think that is much harder to find than a lot of other people think. It seems like a lot of people here are of the attitude "I don't care if my new QB does anything other than pass the ball as long as he is better than Tyrod at passing the ball."

 

The only thing wrong with having that philosophy is that the Bills might be a worse team because of it.

 

Take a guy like Tannehill. Slightly better passer than Tyrod. But you can bet the Bills offense would completely suck with him (at least I think so). And the offensive line would look like a turnstyle on 3rd downs. And the running game would take a major step backward.

 

All of a sudden 8 guys in the box and the BIlls can't run anymore because nobody is watching or worried about the QB taking off with the ball They cue in on Shady when he is the backfield instead of worrying about Shady & the QB.

 

This is a completely different offense with a pure pocket passer - and probably a lot worse one - unless that pocket passer is really good to make up for those other big plays that Tyrod gets you.

 

If the Bills build the best or close to the best pass blocking offensive line in football - then you could throw any decent pocket passer back there and he would probably do okay. (Dallas and Dak for example) But - the Bills aren't building that top notch pass blocking offensive line are they? These guys can run block with the best of them. But not so good at pass blocking. And a lot worse with a pure pocket passer in my opinion.

 

And all of this assumes we have seen Tyrod already play his best football. If he plays better than he has in the last 2 years, gets more playcalls to throw the ball in a well designed passing offense and has healthy Sammy all year plus a decent #2 - he is going to have stats that suggest he is definitely above average - better than many of the leagues pure pocket passers - even if he still isn't a pure pocket passer.

 

Or maybe I am totally wrong and he ends up sucking dogballs and gets thrown out of the league. We shall see.

[PolishDave]

Can someone define "pure pocket passer" for me, please?

 

A quarterback who almost never runs with the ball. He never leaves the pocket unless absolutely forced to by overwhelming pressure.

 

Some are more pure than others.

 

Teams don't design any run plays for pure pocket passers.

 

Ex: Drew Brees or Jay Cutler

Edited April 25, 2017 by PolishDave

[transplantbillsfan]

He HAS to be a pure pocket passer?

 

I think there are some quarterbacks who disagree with that premise. Russ Wilson is probably the best example. I don't see the Seahawks ditching him anytime soon.

 

I prefer a pure pocket passer also. I would rather have a guy like Bledsoe (good years) to be honest. But if you are going to get a pure pocket passer, you have to make sure that guys is so much better at executing the passing game that he at least makes up for the other benefits you get with having Tyrod.

 

I think that is much harder to find than a lot of other people think. It seems like a lot of people here are of the attitude "I don't care if my new QB does anything other than pass the ball as long as he is better than Tyrod at passing the ball."

 

The only thing wrong with having that philosophy is that the Bills might be a worse team because of it.

 

Take a guy like Tannehill. Slightly better passer than Tyrod. But you can bet the Bills offense would completely suck with him (at least I think so). And the offensive line would look like a turnstyle on 3rd downs. And the running game would take a major step backward.

 

All of a sudden 8 guys in the box and the BIlls can't run anymore because nobody is watching or worried about the QB taking off with the ball They cue in on Shady when he is the backfield instead of worrying about Shady & the QB.

 

This is a completely different offense with a pure pocket passer - and probably a lot worse one - unless that pocket passer is really good to make up for those other big plays that Tyrod gets you.

 

If the Bills build the best or close to the best pass blocking offensive line in football - then you could throw any decent pocket passer back there and he would probably do okay. (Dallas and Dak for example) But - the Bills aren't building that top notch pass blocking offensive line are they? These guys can run block with the best of them. But not so good at pass blocking. And a lot worse with a pure pocket passer in my opinion.

 

And all of this assumes we have seen Tyrod already play his best football. If he plays better than he has in the last 2 years, gets more playcalls to throw the ball in a well designed passing offense and has healthy Sammy all year plus a decent #2 - he is going to have stats that suggest he is definitely above average - better than many of the leagues pure pocket passers - even if he still isn't a pure pocket passer.

 

Or maybe I am totally wrong and he ends up sucking dogballs and gets thrown out of the league. We shall see.

Nicely stated.

 

If Tyrod lasts in this league as an NFL starter there's always going to be an element of escape ability he's going to rely on. But I expect him to improve as a passer in the process and rely more and more on his arm and less on his legs, though not abandoning them.

 

This is why I asked for a definition of "pure pocket passer." You point to Russell Wilson, I think Aaron Rodgers is another example that breaks that construct...

[starrymessenger]

He has to be a pure pocket passer if he wants to last in this league. Simple as that. Oh, he'll continue to have flashes while he makes amazing, scintillating plays with his legs, but if a QB cannot operate from the pocket he will not be able to utilize the entire field and he becomes too easy to defend as a result. Defenses are stocked with great athletes and smart DCs to begin with and if you can't force them to defend the entire space it plays right into their hands.

 

But is Wilson a pocket passer? I don't think I'd call him that. But he can operate in and around the pocket and he is dangerous as a passer (not just as a runner) outside the pocket when thats the play call or when the play has broken down. He sees more of the field well, throws with anticipation while maintaining accuracy, understands when and knows how to throw with touch and with a little extra when its called for, has outstanding situational and spatial awareness. He is just a much more talented passer. Tyrod does not work the pocket well, does not throw well on the run (unfortunately, because he is tremendously mobile), has poor field vision and spatial awareness, often lacks touch when it is called for. He has a nice long ball but thats about the only time he is consistently in sync with a moving target and thats probably because its the easiest throw to make and requires the least of those aptitudes that good nfl passers posses.

I hope that he can turn the corner but I don't think it is going to happen. You have to be naturally endowed with the skills required to be a good passer and as athletically blessed as he is those aptitudes, which to me are more mental/cerebral than physical, are somewhat dead in him.

[NoSaint]

 

A quarterback who almost never runs with the ball. He never leaves the pocket unless absolutely forced to by overwhelming pressure.

 

Some are more pure than others.

 

Teams don't design any run plays for pure pocket passers.

 

Ex: Drew Brees or Jay Cutler

Russel Wilson can throw from the pocket though. I don't think k9 is referencing that you never let them run but that they need to be able to pass even if they have that added dynamic

[jeffismagic]

Where is the evidence that a QB going into his 7th year suddenly becomes better? Why is this an argument? If you like TT, fine. But don't tell us he is going to get better.

[mannc]

Where is the evidence that a QB going into his 7th year suddenly becomes better? Why is this an argument? If you like TT, fine. But don't tell us he is going to get better.

29 starts. Of course he can get better.

[Santana]

Where is the evidence that a QB going into his 7th year suddenly becomes better? Why is this an argument? If you like TT, fine. But don't tell us he is going to get better.

I definitely understand where you're coming from but it's really his 3rd year as a starter. I can see a QB getting substantially better after his 2nd or 3rd year starting.

[Coach Tuesday]

He has to be a pure pocket passer if he wants to last in this league. Simple as that. Oh, he'll continue to have flashes while he makes amazing, scintillating plays with his legs, but if a QB cannot operate from the pocket he will not be able to utilize the entire field and he becomes too easy to defend as a result. Defenses are stocked with great athletes and smart DCs to begin with and if you can't force them to defend the entire space it plays right into their hands.

 

Cam Newton, though?

[PolishDave]

29 starts. Of course he can get better.

 

I definitely understand where you're coming from but it's really his 3rd year as a starter. I can see a QB getting substantially better after his 2nd or 3rd year starting.

 

Agreed.

 

Nobody knows if we have seen his best football or not. Maybe we have. Maybe we haven't.

 

Certainly conceivable that he could play better. Common sense tells you that. Especially if he has healthy Sammy all year.

[NoSaint]

 

 

Agreed.

 

Nobody knows if we have seen his best football or not. Maybe we have. Maybe we haven't.

 

Certainly conceivable that he could play better. Common sense tells you that. Especially if he has healthy Sammy all year.

he may correct things, but i dont think we suddenly see him make a HUGE jump. He threw a ton in college, had several years pro coaching, and has now played a substantial number as a pro.

 

a healthy sammy may really boost his production, but i dont think he suddenly starts hitting his back foot in the drop and on time firing lasers to the middle of the field and hitting guys in stride consistently either.

[PolishDave]

he may correct things, but i dont think we suddenly see him make a HUGE jump. He threw a ton in college, had several years pro coaching, and has now played a substantial number as a pro.

 

a healthy sammy may really boost his production, but i dont think he suddenly starts hitting his back foot in the drop and on time firing lasers to the middle of the field and hitting guys in stride consistently either.

 

Well where I differ from a lot of people I guess is thinking where the correction needs to occur. I think the bigger thing to correct, to see better quarterbacking, is/was the offensive design and types of play calls. And I hope to see that.

 

I don't expect Tyrod's quarterback traits to change much at all. Maybe ever so slight improvement because of experience. Mechanics - doubt he changes at all. Decision making - might improve. Confidence - I expect improvement.

 

That is all I expect to change. And that is all (in my opinion) that would have to change to see him have above average NFL starting quarterback stats. I certainly don't expect or think he will ever become an elite pocket passer. I think his absolute ceiling is right around cracking the top 10 in quarterback rankings. His floor is where he was last year in my opinion. I don't see him regressing until his legs begin to fail him. When that happens he will regress quickly and be out of the league. Of course that is just my guess. Could be totally wrong.

Edited April 25, 2017 by PolishDave

[transplantbillsfan]

But is Wilson a pocket passer? I don't think I'd call him that. But he can operate in and around the pocket and he is dangerous as a passer (not just as a runner) outside the pocket when thats the play call or when the play has broken down. He sees more of the field well, throws with anticipation while maintaining accuracy, understands when and knows how to throw with touch and with a little extra when its called for, has outstanding situational and spatial awareness. He is just a much more talented passer. Tyrod does not work the pocket well, does not throw well on the run (unfortunately, because he is tremendously mobile), has poor field vision and spatial awareness, often lacks touch when it is called for. He has a nice long ball but thats about the only time he is consistently in sync with a moving target and thats probably because its the easiest throw to make and requires the least of those aptitudes that good nfl passers posses.

I hope that he can turn the corner but I don't think it is going to happen. You have to be naturally endowed with the skills required to be a good passer and as athletically blessed as he is those aptitudes, which to me are more mental/cerebral than physical, are somewhat dead in him.

 

Wait... Tyrod doesn't throw well on the run? Seriously?

 

I expect part of the reason Dennison wanted to keep Taylor was because much of his offense is predicated on bootlegs and rollouts with QBs who throw on the run. And Taylor is excellent throwing on the run.

Russel Wilson can throw from the pocket though. I don't think k9 is referencing that you never let them run but that they need to be able to pass even if they have that added dynamic

 

Taylor can throw from the pocket, too.

Where is the evidence that a QB going into his 7th year suddenly becomes better? Why is this an argument? If you like TT, fine. But don't tell us he is going to get better.

 

Where is the evidence a QB going into his 3rd year as a starter is stuck where he is and can't get better?

 

 

I know some of you like to point at his time on the bench in Baltimore as somehow putting him really far ahead of the game, but it ignores what Taylor was when he came out of Virginia Tech and the human component that every single NFL player isn't at the exact same point of development from the time they are drafted to the end of year one to the end of year two to the end of...

 

It's just bizarre to label Taylor as a "QB going into his 7th year" in the overarching way that statement connotes a level of experience Taylor must have... as though Taylor has as much NFL experience under his belt as Cam Newton, who was drafted the same year.

[NoSaint]

 

Well where I differ from a lot of people I guess is thinking where the correction needs to occur. I don't the bigger thing to correct to see better quarterbacking is/was the offensive design and types of play calls. And I hope to see that.

 

I don't expect Tyrod's quarterback traits to change much at all. Maybe ever so slight improvement because of experience. Mechanics - doubt he changes at all. Decision making - might improve. Confidence - I expect improvement.

 

That is all I expect to change. And that is all (in my opinion) that would have to change to see him have above average NFL starting quarterback stats. I certainly don't expect or think he will ever become an elite pocket passer. I think his absolute ceiling is right around cracking the top 10 in quarterback rankings. His floor is where he was last year in my opinion. I don't see him regressing until his legs begin to fail him. When that happens he will regress quickly and be out of the league. Of course that is just my guess. Could be totally wrong.

all that is fair to hope for i think. the dude probably is more or less who he will be but you can definitely put him in better situations and surround him with better talent and get more out of him.

[transplantbillsfan]

he may correct things, but i dont think we suddenly see him make a HUGE jump. He threw a ton in college, had several years pro coaching, and has now played a substantial number as a pro.

 

a healthy sammy may really boost his production, but i dont think he suddenly starts hitting his back foot in the drop and on time firing lasers to the middle of the field and hitting guys in stride consistently either.

 

He needs a jump in consistency more than anything. He doesn't need a huge jump in what he can do and has done on the field. He just needs to do what he's done well more consistently.

[NoSaint]

 

He needs a jump in consistency more than anything. He doesn't need a huge jump in what he can do and has done on the field. He just needs to do what he's done well more consistently.

some of the stuff has been REALLY inconsistent though, so i doubt we see those things turn into strengths suddenly. is he capable of hitting his 5th step and firing a laser over the middle and hitting a guy in stride -- sure. any qb at that level can do it inconsistently. can he do it INCREDIBLY consistently like the top qbs? he probably wont get there.

[transplantbillsfan]

some of the stuff has been REALLY inconsistent though, so i doubt we see those things turn into strengths suddenly. is he capable of hitting his 5th step and firing a laser over the middle and hitting a guy in stride -- sure. any qb at that level can do it inconsistently. can he do it INCREDIBLY consistently like the top qbs? he probably wont get there.

 

As PolishDave kinda referenced, you're probably never going to like Taylor because he's never ever going to be Brady or Rivers or Brees.

 

There's always going to be a component of escape ability and improvisation to his game.

 

​But the thing is, Aaron Rodgers has proven that even if those components are big parts of your game, you can still be great.

 

No, I'm not saying Taylor is at Rodgers's level or ever will be.

 

I'm saying that you (and others) have in your mind a QB mold that Taylor will absolutely never be, even if he becomes great (which he isn't).

 

 

Taylor was actually hitting WRs over the middle more consistently (and effectively) in 2016 than 2015. But you say he has to be "INCREDIBLY" consistent.

 

Seems like something he could never achieve. Or if he became "INCREDIBLY" consistent, the bar goes up to "SUPER DUPER INCREDIBLY" consistent.

 

Taylor's not the "pure pocket passer" some want. It doesn't mean a QB with his playing style and skill set can't be great (and again, no, I'm not saying he's great or will be).