Are the Bills back to being the NFL's farm team?

[boyst]

Every team loses players. It's also a sign that you are drafting well. You can't keep everyone. We've keep Glenn, RI, Wood, Hughes, Dareus, Kyle, etc and brought in guys like Clay.

 

The best teams that are able to draft their replacements or find cheaper players in FA. And having a franchise qb helps.

what's it say that we only started 2 of them and a longshot on kyle (so 3)

 

I'd be curious to look at our top 8-12 players $$$ and see how many we drafted.

 

Top of my head Dareus, wood, Glenn... and I couldn't guess the rest because we are such a young team in many positions. Our wr are all low cost.fa or on rookie deals. Outside of McCoy they're all average pay. The ol isrookie and vvets but not expensive when ya look at it. Glenn and incognito are worth their $ wood is a bit over priced and needs to restructure. Our dbs, lbs. A lot of positions are cheap

[jeffismagic]

Just about everyone has universally praised the McDermott hire. From Bill Polian to random NFL analysts to other head coaches around the NFL.

 

McDermott is said to be very well respected if NFL circles.

 

Yes, Bill Polian also loved Marrone. It's a red flag when Polian likes a coach.

[mjt328]

 

Do you understand where the NFL's money comes from? The people at the top of the food chain have no interest in Buffalo having a good team. They want the teams in Dallas and New York to do well. That's not a theory. That's business.

 

That's why the Pegulas need to stop just talking to their other buddy billionaire friends and get some real outside the box thinking in here. I would not let the other NFL teams "advise" me who to hire as they are in competition with me.

 

I've kicked around conspiracy theories like this in the past. It just doesn't hold water.

 

If the NFL was all about "market size" and favoring teams with larger fan bases, then why are the Jets always a laughing stock? Why do the Bears have one Super Bowl win and virtually no sustained success in its entire history? Why are the Steelers and Packers two of the most consistently successful franchises in the league? Why did the NFL ignore the large Patriots market until the turn of the century? What happened to the Cowboys after their dynasty players retired in the late 90s?

 

The small market excuse is bull. It always has been.

 

The Bills are on the same playing field as everyone else. They just have a history of hiring the wrong people to run the organization. This trickles down to bad GMs, bad coaches and bad players. This equals losing.

 

The ONE TIME in 50+ years this team actually hired a brilliant guy to head everything up (Bill Polian), he ended up bringing in a Hall of Fame coach (Marv Levy) and building one of the best football teams ever to step on an NFL field. We won consistently and went to 4 Super Bowls. Nothing any of the "big markets" could do to stop us. And of course we eventually ended up firing Polian, which should tell you something about the decision-making coming from above him.

[jeffismagic]

 

I've kicked around conspiracy theories like this in the past. It just doesn't hold water.

 

If the NFL was all about "market size" and favoring teams with larger fan bases, then why are the Jets always a laughing stock? Why do the Bears have one Super Bowl win and virtually no sustained success in its entire history? Why are the Steelers and Packers two of the most consistently successful franchises in the league? Why did the NFL ignore the large Patriots market until the turn of the century? What happened to the Cowboys after their dynasty players retired in the late 90s?

 

The small market excuse is bull. It always has been.

 

The Bills are on the same playing field as everyone else. They just have a history of hiring the wrong people to run the organization. This trickles down to bad GMs, bad coaches and bad players. This equals losing.

 

The ONE TIME in 50+ years this team actually hired a brilliant guy to head everything up (Bill Polian), he ended up bringing in a Hall of Fame coach (Marv Levy) and building one of the best football teams ever to step on an NFL field. We won consistently and went to 4 Super Bowls. Nothing any of the "big markets" could do to stop us. And of course we eventually ended up firing Polian, which should tell you something about the decision-making coming from above him.

 

There is no theory. The NFL does want bigger markets to do well and doesn't care as much about markets like Buffalo as long as they keep their fans engaged. My point was that everyone outside of Buffalo is happy to have Buffalo remain out of sight and out of mind.

 

The Pegulas need to show loyalty to Buffalo fans first and actually start running their teams like smart people that want to win.

[JM2009]

 

Yes, Bill Polian also loved Marrone. It's a red flag when Polian likes a coach.

Cannot be seriously comparing the Marrone hire to McDermott hire.

[JohnC]

 

Yes, Bill Polian also loved Marrone. It's a red flag when Polian likes a coach.

Marrone did a reasonably good job. He took over a team that was essentially being rebuilt and had it consistently playing hard. In my mind the team was on an upward trajectory. I'm not going to over glamorize or over state his record with the Bills but I don't think it is unfair to say that this team was moving in a positive direction.

 

As a coach there was little that was elite about him. He was a meat and potatoes type coach. He probably was too unyielding and had an old school tiresome approach that would have in the end would resulted in him not having much longevity here. But what I can say with confidence is that with his departure and the introduction of the Rex era our franchise was set back by years.

[BillsFan4]

Yes, Bill Polian also loved Marrone. It's a red flag when Polian likes a coach.

I disagree with that, but then take Polian out of the equation.

 

How do you explain the near universal praise by everyone as a "red flag"?

 

Every coach, GM, player, ex-player, analyst (etc) who I have seen speak about the McDermott hire has offered praise. I can't remember seeing a single person say anything bad.

[C.Biscuit97]

 

Green Bay has always had a loaded WR core. Yes, the QB helps but they also have found players later in the draft and the Bills have not found a WR past the 2nd round since Stevie J.

 

RB? Yes, we have a better one that we traded for. Philly drafted Shady.

 

Sammy we spent 2 #1 Picks on. That's not great drafting or scouting. Everyone knew Sammy was a good WR.

 

Clay was drafted late by Miami and signed to a big contract by the Bills. Not a Bills draft success.

Robert woods would be a 1,000 yard receiver in GB. Hogan would be a big play guy like he is NE. Clay would be the best TE Rodgers has had since Finley.

[jeffismagic]

I disagree with that, but then take Polian out of the equation.

 

How do you explain the near universal praise by everyone as a "red flag"?

 

Every coach, GM, player, ex-player, analyst (etc) who I have seen speak about the McDermott hire has offered praise. I can't remember seeing a single person say anything bad.

 

Go to the websites of other teams that hired coaches. Same crap. It's a good old boy network and everyone is great.

Robert woods would be a 1,000 yard receiver in GB. Hogan would be a big play guy like he is NE. Clay would be the best TE Rodgers has had since Finley.

 

We're discussing drafts. Bills have been ok in first few rounds but have found little, even depth after that.

[C.Biscuit97]

So GBs average defense counts into the discussion, but our lousy defense from 2016 is no excuse for TT? Sammy had a breakout year in 2015. he won't have one again until he can stay on the field. We don't know if Clay is better or not.

GB's defense gave up 7 less yards than us.

[HappyDays]

You can't re-sign everybody. Every team loses Free Agents.

Every. Single. Team.

 

The Bills have actually managed to retain the majority of their top free agent talent over the last few years. Jerry Hughes, Marcel Dareus, Cordy Glenn and Ritchie Incognito were all brought back. The only major free agent the Bills let walk since Doug Whaley took over was Jairus Byrd. Fans whined and complained about that. But it was clearly the right decision (even though nobody wants to give this front office credit for being smart). Byrd was ridiculously overpaid and hasn't done squat since leaving Buffalo.

 

The Patriots always let young guys walk, and are notorious for hard-balling anybody that wants a decent contract. The latest example being Malcolm Butler. In many cases they will actually trade a guy before he hits free agency, just because they don't want to pay him. See Chandler Jones and Jamie Collins. Teams like Pittsburgh and Green Bay are also stingy with re-signing players and are rarely active in free agency.

 

 

I know the drill. Bills fans are tired of losing. So they criticize every move this front office makes. But the truth is, the Bills have done a very good job in free agency since Whaley took over. They have re-signed the right players. They have known when to let players walk. They have found bargains that have made a strong impact.

 

The biggest problem with this franchise (when it comes to player acquisition) continues to be sub-par drafting. The good teams can afford to let free agents walk, because they have strong replacements groomed and waiting in the wings to step up. The Bills continue to spin their wheels because every free agent they don't re-sign creates another hole.

 

On average, Whaley's drafts are yielding about 2 solid starting players per year - with virtually all of his success coming in the first 3 rounds. His Day 3 picks and undrafted free agents aren't even contributing as decent depth. Now, that number may be an improvement over the disastrous Marv Levy/Dick Jauron years. But that still just isn't good enough to keep the pipeline full.

This is exactly right. In a perfect world Whaley would be named Director of Pro Scouting and we'd bring in someone to handle the draft and salary cap.

[Elite Poster]

Drafting players, developing them, letting them walk, and then drafting to fill the holes they left was the worst thing about the last decade of Ralph's ownership. Nate Clements, Antoine Winfield, Jason Peters, Marshawn Lynch, the list goes on. The Bills had gotten away from this under Pegula by retaining a lot of good talent like Dareus, Glenn, and Wood but now we seem to going back to the way things were.

 

We let Gilmore and Woods, two good players that we drafted walk in free agency leaving us with CB and WR as probably our biggest holes going into the draft. And in typical Bills fashion, we'll probably just be spinning our wheels this weekend by replacing a 1st and 2nd round CB/WR we drafted with another 1st and 2nd round CB/WR we draft while other teams pay the players we developed to improve their teams. None of the players drafted by the Bills in 2013 are on the team, and there is only 1 from each of 2011 and 2012, which is just incredible.

 

A lot of this can be blamed on Whaley's awful cap management, but I feel like the organization still just doesn't want to hand out real contracts to good (i.e., not blockbuster and not depth) players, sticking with massively overpaying for a few marquee free agents (and Dareus, although he is supremely talented) and signing the rest of the roster off the scrap heap to 1-year prove-it deals.

 

And yes, I realize letting Byrd leave and go on to be a massive free agency bust runs opposite to this, but the exception proves the rule. Good teams win by nurturing the talent they draft.

 

Its been proven time and time again, that this is pretty common for the entire league.

All of this effort to write this elaborate essay when the real answer to the question is => WE need a franchise QB.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Drafting players, developing them, letting them walk, and then drafting to fill the holes they left was the worst thing about the last decade of Ralph's ownership. Nate Clements, Antoine Winfield, Jason Peters, Marshawn Lynch, the list goes on. The Bills had gotten away from this under Pegula by retaining a lot of good talent like Dareus, Glenn, and Wood but now we seem to going back to the way things were.

 

We let Gilmore and Woods, two good players that we drafted walk in free agency leaving us with CB and WR as probably our biggest holes going into the draft. And in typical Bills fashion, we'll probably just be spinning our wheels this weekend by replacing a 1st and 2nd round CB/WR we drafted with another 1st and 2nd round CB/WR we draft while other teams pay the players we developed to improve their teams. None of the players drafted by the Bills in 2013 are on the team, and there is only 1 from each of 2011 and 2012, which is just incredible.

 

A lot of this can be blamed on Whaley's awful cap management, but I feel like the organization still just doesn't want to hand out real contracts to good (i.e., not blockbuster and not depth) players, sticking with massively overpaying for a few marquee free agents (and Dareus, although he is supremely talented) and signing the rest of the roster off the scrap heap to 1-year prove-it deals.

 

And yes, I realize letting Byrd leave and go on to be a massive free agency bust runs opposite to this, but the exception proves the rule. Good teams win by nurturing the talent they draft.

Hmmm... Woods and Gilmore don't really substantiate the 'farm team' model.

 

They both were day one starters and contributed about as much in the beginning as the end. They simply chased bigger money than their play was worth to Buffalo once their initial contract expired. Sure there was some investment in their development, but in my view this exactly how you want to fun a franchise.

 

I'd add the examples of true development projects who were built from raw rookies into solid players over many seasons then lost to another team are very few and far between of late. I can't really think of one drafted in the past 5 years that fits that pattern.

[PromoTheRobot]

I disagree with that, but then take Polian out of the equation.

 

How do you explain the near universal praise by everyone as a "red flag"?

 

Every coach, GM, player, ex-player, analyst (etc) who I have seen speak about the McDermott hire has offered praise. I can't remember seeing a single person say anything bad.

Look earlier in this thread. Jeff is convinced everyone is in on a conspiracy to hold the Bills down by "praising" bad hires. In other words, the more universal the praise, the worse the hire must be. Yeah. I know.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

Go to the websites of other teams that hired coaches. Same crap. It's a good old boy network and everyone is great.

I am 1,000,000% with you here. Everyone falls prey to it here. My dad keeps telling me how great the coaching staff is going to be. We see it with every new staff. Everyone loves them until they have to coach a game and that's where reality sets in. I'm not saying that he will be bad or good but he certainly looks much better today than he will week 9. Edited April 24, 2017 by Kirby Jackson

[dave mcbride]

Marrone did a reasonably good job. He took over a team that was essentially being rebuilt and had it consistently playing hard. In my mind the team was on an upward trajectory. I'm not going to over glamorize or over state his record with the Bills but I don't think it is unfair to say that this team was moving in a positive direction.

 

As a coach there was little that was elite about him. He was a meat and potatoes type coach. He probably was too unyielding and had an old school tiresome approach that would have in the end would resulted in him not having much longevity here. But what I can say with confidence is that with his departure and the introduction of the Rex era our franchise was set back by years.

Marrone is an unlikable person, but he is not a bad football coach. Not only does Polian like him, so does Coughlin. Coughlin is a great coach and a great team builder.

[John from Riverside]

OP is this all because of Gilmore?

 

We got what....4 years of quality play out of Stephon at a reasonable price......then he goes onto the pats who i would bet my bottom dollar he doesn see the final year of that contract.

 

We need to decipher "farm team" from doing things that make good football financial dollar sense.....

[Malazan]

Gilmore was the worst CB in the league according to some here...until it became clear the Bills weren't going to resign him. Same with Woods..

[JohnC]

Marrone is an unlikable person, but he is not a bad football coach. Not only does Polian like him, so does Coughlin. Coughlin is a great coach and a great team builder.

Marrone was right on his quick assessment on EJ and he was right that Kujo was not close to being ready to play on the OL. He was brutally frank in expressing his displeasure at the qb situation he was handed by Whaley. No fair-minded person can say that he was wrong in his judgments and criticisms.

 

However, there is a professional way of expressing criticism and there is an unprofessional way of doing it. I suspect that after his departure he gained a better perspective on how to handle disagreements in a job where disagreements are an inescapable aspect of the job.

 

I'm confident in saying that Coughlin would never tolerate the type of pugnacious and disrespectful behavior that DM exhibited toward Whaley. The tough old Irishman would kick him in the ass and throw out the door before he finished with his insufferable fulminations.

[KollegeStudnet]

dont forget, the cheaters are in a unique position bc they have the goat at the most lopsided position in modern history. they can twist everybodys arm to take less money than they could get elsewhere for a chance to drink from marcias magic fountain of rings. sucks for the rest of us but they have that gift right now and arent afraid to turn the screws and then just trade guys who wont play along

 

the rest of the team mostly have to pay market value or above to get their stars to stay. its a big disadvantage for the rest of the division teams especially bc they have to face them twice every year. it is what it is. and it sucks

 

Tis' true.