Blokestradamus Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 I know he did a Houdini in 4 games. Hes a great athlete from the looks of it but if he is a blue chip prospect lock top ten he had something goign on during the Arkansas, Mississippi, Chattanooga, and Louisiana games as he had one catch. It's simply down to not being able to catch what isn't thrown. For his entire time at Bama, OJ wasn't worked into the gameplan often enough. We've seen him go off when he's given opportunity to, tight ends in college can be high variance performers. From the PFF draft grade, OJ was 13th in yards per route run & 9th in drop rate. Of 57 targets in 2016, 47 of them were deemed catchable, he caught 45 of them. Only issue I have with OJ early is return on investment. The talent is there but I think there's a considerable amount of hype with him based on projection.
NoSaint Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 (edited) And that right there is the million dollar question Is OJ Howard a "special" TE in a TE rich draft is Mike Williams a future star in a draft that has a lot of "good" WR talent This is where the scouts gotta earn their paycheck Well, and part is even if he's the next Gronk, then Williams still just has to be an average #1 to be valued similarly. If Williams (or Davis) is a top 10 WR down the line it's a slam dunk you take them. So the real test is do you think he's a much better TE than you think the WRs are at their position. If even projecting close to the same level at their respective positions you go WR. Edited April 22, 2017 by NoSaint
C.Biscuit97 Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 A dynamic WR is always the better option if talent levels are generally equal. There's a reason the top paid TE is about 16 on the WR list. That said, an out of this world TE is better than a so-so WR2 Always, I respect your thoughts. A few things: 1) Sammy is our elite receiver. We invested a #4 and another 1st round pick on him. I don't know if any team has invested that much on a wr besides Atlanta. And then there is Woods with a 2nd and Goodwin with a 3rd. We keep throwing high picks on picks on receiver hoping they will make our qbs better. That is faulty logic. It should be the opposite way. 2) how many elite receivers are the reason their teams win? How many elite WRs have even won SBs? The Pats had 2 top 10 TEs and a bunch of guys who would be 3rd WRs on most teams. The Steelers never draft WRs high. Kelce is the Chiefs best receiver. GB doesn't have a 1st round wr. The Seahawks have Jimmy Graham and 7th round Doug Baldwin.
Augie Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 I could have sworn I saw somewhere that he was lazy, unmotivated and didn't really like football. I may have mixed him up with someone else. No, that could very well be true. I have heard some people say that it was Kiffen and a young QB who lessened his productivity, but again I don't really know enough to have an opinion.
John from Riverside Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 Well, and part is even if he's the next Gronk, then Williams still just has to be an average #1 to be valued similarly. If Williams (or Davis) is a top 10 WR down the line it's a slam dunk you take them. So the real test is do you think he's a much better TE than you think the WRs are at their position. If even projecting close to the same level at their respective positions you go WR. I approach it from the stand point that OJ Howard is a player that never has to leave the field.....because he is so well rounded. Huge catch radius....already a good blocker......how do you cover him?
NoSaint Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 (edited) Always, I respect your thoughts. A few things: 1) Sammy is our elite receiver. We invested a #4 and another 1st round pick on him. I don't know if any team has invested that much on a wr besides Atlanta. And then there is Woods with a 2nd and Goodwin with a 3rd. We keep throwing high picks on picks on receiver hoping they will make our qbs better. That is faulty logic. It should be the opposite way. 2) how many elite receivers are the reason their teams win? How many elite WRs have even won SBs? The Pats had 2 top 10 TEs and a bunch of guys who would be 3rd WRs on most teams. The Steelers never draft WRs high. Kelce is the Chiefs best receiver. GB doesn't have a 1st round wr. The Seahawks have Jimmy Graham and 7th round Doug Baldwin. Likewise on the respect front -- and I know no more than any other schlub here so just my own thoughts as well... and I do agree with some of your sentiments I might buy that the elite TE provides better value for your resources at points in the comparison chart... but in part that's because you can normally get them for far less. If arguing if you are better off with graham/gronk than the 15-20th best WR who would be on the same contract--- id dig that conversation and without more thought wouldn't be sure where I'd land. Likewise, if youre arguing a $9m tight end and $4m upgrade to another position is more valuable than a $13m WR, I might go either way In this case it would be identical investments and GMs feel (and I tend to agree) WRs have way more upside if similar quality prospects at their respective position. Howard would have to be a better tight end than Williams a receiver to justify identical investment. I think it's pretty well accepted in most circles that WRs are more impactful players even if they don't have the classic football chest beating appeal that a Tight End running over a corner does. Tight ends definitely appeal to fans emotions in a different way that I think impacts how we value them as game changers Also- As you note we also have a top end WR, but likewise we have invested nearly as much into TE with ours too 5-10 pay. We'd be outliers in resource allocation either way in this discussion... as you note, the team that did it was the pats, and theyve won consistently with all kinds of resource allocation as long as one resource is Brady I approach it from the stand point that OJ Howard is a player that never has to leave the field.....Which WR2 has to leave the field? Does our current TE1 have to leave the field? I get it and if we were talking WR at 10 or TE and 20 I'm a lot more eager for the comparison. I'll likewise admit I see TT using a deep threat more effectively than intermediate middle of the field passing. Who means more to this offense when healthy - Sammy, or clay for instance? Edited April 22, 2017 by NoSaint
mannc Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 (edited) Always, I respect your thoughts. A few things: 1) Sammy is our elite receiver. We invested a #4 and another 1st round pick on him. I don't know if any team has invested that much on a wr besides Atlanta. And then there is Woods with a 2nd and Goodwin with a 3rd. We keep throwing high picks on picks on receiver hoping they will make our qbs better. That is faulty logic. It should be the opposite way. 2) how many elite receivers are the reason their teams win? How many elite WRs have even won SBs? The Pats had 2 top 10 TEs and a bunch of guys who would be 3rd WRs on most teams. The Steelers never draft WRs high. Kelce is the Chiefs best receiver. GB doesn't have a 1st round wr. The Seahawks have Jimmy Graham and 7th round Doug Baldwin. It's irrelevant what we've spent on Sammy, Woods, Goodwin, etc. Our WR corps needs to be upgraded in a big way. That doesn't mean we HAVE to use pick 10 on WR, but if the BPA is WR, the fact that we spent two number ones on Sammy three years ago makes no difference. That's what's called a sunk cost. Again, I'm fine with using a later pick or picks at the position instead, but this "no good team invests major resources in WRs" argument is no reason to pass on a guy like Williams or Davis. Edited April 22, 2017 by mannc
YoloinOhio Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 (edited) Doesn't Howard have all sorts of motivational and character red flags? nope. Very clean prospect. Unless there is info we don't know. Edited April 22, 2017 by YoloinOhio
C.Biscuit97 Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 It's irrelevant what we've spent on Sammy, Woods, Goodwin, etc. Our WR corps needs to be upgraded in a big way. That doesn't mean we HAVE to use pick 10 on WR, but if the BPA is WR, the fact that we spent two number ones on Sammy three years ago makes no difference. That's what's called a sunk cost. Again, I'm fine with using a later pick or picks at the position instead, but this "no good team invests major resources in WRs" argument is no reason to pass on a guy like Williams or Davis. Maybe we should start doing what good teams do and not what the 0-16 Lions did.
NoSaint Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 Maybe we should start doing what good teams do and not what the 0-16 Lions did. The falcons made that Julio trade with roddy white still there in his prime. There's two sides there What the good teams do is get the pick right - if we pick a bust WR, or a bust TE it won't make much difference.... which was the bigger lions issue there
mannc Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 Maybe we should start doing what good teams do and not what the 0-16 Lions did.So, should the Lions have passed on Calvin Johnson because they wasted first round picks on Roy and Mike Williams a couple years earlier?
starrymessenger Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 nope. Very clean prospect. Unless there is info we don't know. No bad guy type character issues but some have questioned his desire to be great, without which he won't be at the next level. I have no idea if there is any foundation to this in fact.
Augie Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 I sort of like being contrarian in our approach. Run in a league where teams are built to stop the pass. Two tight ends can help the run game and still allow for a good and challenging passing attack (with he right guys). Makes for difficult matchups as the Cheaters have demonstrated. Of course I like the idea of spreading the field to run too. Who am I kidding? I'm a fan of anything that works....
NoSaint Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 I sort of like being contrarian in our approach. Run in a league where teams are built to stop the pass. Two tight ends can help the run game and still allow for a good and challenging passing attack (with he right guys). Makes for difficult matchups as the Cheaters have demonstrated. Of course I like the idea of spreading the field to run too. Who am I kidding? I'm a fan of anything that works.... We've done well out of both the roman scheme of creating lanes with complex matchups and misdirection and blocking schemes as well as chan spreading the defense wide to create lanes. I think the key is to maximize talent to maximize pressure on the defense and then have a coach that can use what is given
John from Riverside Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 Likewise on the respect front -- and I know no more than any other schlub here so just my own thoughts as well... and I do agree with some of your sentiments I might buy that the elite TE provides better value for your resources at points in the comparison chart... but in part that's because you can normally get them for far less. If arguing if you are better off with graham/gronk than the 15-20th best WR who would be on the same contract--- id dig that conversation and without more thought wouldn't be sure where I'd land. Likewise, if youre arguing a $9m tight end and $4m upgrade to another position is more valuable than a $13m WR, I might go either way In this case it would be identical investments and GMs feel (and I tend to agree) WRs have way more upside if similar quality prospects at their respective position. Howard would have to be a better tight end than Williams a receiver to justify identical investment. I think it's pretty well accepted in most circles that WRs are more impactful players even if they don't have the classic football chest beating appeal that a Tight End running over a corner does. Tight ends definitely appeal to fans emotions in a different way that I think impacts how we value them as game changers Also- As you note we also have a top end WR, but likewise we have invested nearly as much into TE with ours too 5-10 pay. We'd be outliers in resource allocation either way in this discussion... as you note, the team that did it was the pats, and theyve won consistently with all kinds of resource allocation as long as one resource is Brady Which WR2 has to leave the field? Does our current TE1 have to leave the field? I get it and if we were talking WR at 10 or TE and 20 I'm a lot more eager for the comparison. I'll likewise admit I see TT using a deep threat more effectively than intermediate middle of the field passing. Who means more to this offense when healthy - Sammy, or clay for instance? If you go 2 TE formation the number 2 WR sometimes has to leave the field Im not trying to talking anyone out of a good WR...if it happens Im behind it....if Trubiski happens Im behind it i just think Howard gives you the most bang for your buck given that we will be running the ball a lot
1billsfan Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 (edited) If you go 2 TE formation the number 2 WR sometimes has to leave the field Im not trying to talking anyone out of a good WR...if it happens Im behind it....if Trubiski happens Im behind it i just think Howard gives you the most bang for your buck given that we will be running the ball a lot They would pretty much have a match up advantage in almost every single game. I'm starting to hope for Howard and Godwin as their first two picks. If Taylor can't get it done with that talented group by mid season bench him and put in "12 gauge". Edited April 22, 2017 by 1billsfan
purple haze Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 I wouldnt worry about his ability to seperate. He has 4.49 speed thats .01 slower than Davis. Its also faster than Mike Evans, .02 slower than ABs, faster than Decker. His route tunning does need work though, his routes need to be crisper but thats the only gripe I have concerning MW abilities. Right. I'm not saying he's slow, but in the league route running is what allows the separation. Everybody has speed, and many of the guys he'll be going against will be faster and quicker. That's why his routes have to be better. Can he master route running will be the question. But I do like him a lot though. If you go 2 TE formation the number 2 WR sometimes has to leave the field Im not trying to talking anyone out of a good WR...if it happens Im behind it....if Trubiski happens Im behind it i just think Howard gives you the most bang for your buck given that we will be running the ball a lot Yeah, good point. Something tells me Howard will be gone before the Bills pick. But Howard and a WR in round 2 could be a good combo.
JM2009 Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 Maybe we should start doing what good teams do and not what the 0-16 Lions did. Lions were in the playoffs in last season.
Bangarang Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 Lions were in the playoffs in last season. We don't have a QB as good as them.
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