Augie Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 They did fine with MG and Karlos as backups yet they need a good one for some reason...The offensive line makes these average guys look good. Like I say many times look at MG highlight tape and watch how big the holes are Sadly, Karlos is a big gooey ball of knucklehead. Worth the gamble in my opinion, but....just sad. We will need another option. I prefer a known thing over a gamble with a very precious draft pick. UDFA? I want better odds.
White Linen Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 Fact - Mike Gillislee's career 5.62 average yards per attempt leads ALL NFL running backs in past 50 years with at least 100 rushing attempts. Not paying this guy will result in a major, MAJOR mistake!!!!! Pretty cool how our offensive line makes a low tier RB look really good.
Boatdrinks Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 If you did get a 5th round pick, and you were lucky enough to get someone as good as Gilly, you'd be thrilled! Like winning the lottery thrilled! And yet the Bills were able to sign him off the street as a FA. Doesn't seem to be a one in a million lottery ticket.
Augie Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 Or rewatch the games. Not really what round was Karlos? 5th? And where is he now? And yet the Bills were able to sign him off the street as a FA. Doesn't seem to be a one in a million lottery ticket. So does Whaley get credit? We got lucky, I'd like a sure thing for an important position, the #2 RB on a run first team. I'm not saying the OL and scheme didn't have a lot to do with it, and we'll just have to wait and see.
Beef Jerky Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 5th? And where is he now? Told you a 5th can replace MG... Who cares about now. I want a chance at something over what we already know. MG won't help this team make the playoffs but a 5th round pick even @ 1% looks to be a better future then a 2 year backup. Either way this team still loses to the Patriots.
Boatdrinks Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 Sadly, Karlos is a big gooey ball of knucklehead. Worth the gamble in my opinion, but....just sad. We will need another option. I prefer a known thing over a gamble with a very precious draft pick. UDFA? I want better odds. Non superstar type RBs are a low level commodity in today's NFL. If MG is not retained they will find another guy. Kind of like if the Bills had put a 2nd round tender on MG to guarantee they kept him in the fold for 2017. The Pats would have just went out and signed another guy. And he would produce, and they would still continue to win.
Augie Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 (edited) Told you a 5th can replace MG... Who cares about now. I want a chance at something over what we already know. MG won't help this team make the playoffs but a 5th round pick even @ 1% looks to be a better future then a 2 year backup. Either way this team still loses to the Patriots. J Williams cannot replace him, that seems pretty sure. (Though I'd love to be wrong, it's happened before.) Edited April 22, 2017 by Augie
Beef Jerky Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 Non superstar type RBs are a low level commodity in today's NFL. If MG is not retained they will find another guy. Kind of like if the Bills had put a 2nd round tender on MG to guarantee they kept him in the fold for 2017. The Pats would have just went out and signed another guy. And he would produce, and they would still continue to win. Exactly, give me the 5th I will take the lottery. Not like we have Brady and need to sign as many players as we can before he retires... We have Tyrod on another trial year.
Boatdrinks Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 (edited) 5th? And where is he now? So does Whaley get credit? We got lucky, I'd like a sure thing for an important position, the #2 RB on a run first team. I'm not saying the OL and scheme didn't have a lot to do with it, and we'll just have to wait and see. The fact that a 5th round pick produced for the Bills and then a FA like MG produced makes it seem like it doesn't really take all that much luck at a position like RB. And it will have much less impact on the Bills being a playoff caliber team as the QB and WRs will. And the defense as well. In fact, the Bills will almost certainly not make the playoffs if they continue to be so much of a run first team. They need a better passing game to get in the modern NFL. Edited April 22, 2017 by Boatdrinks
NoSaint Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 Or rewatch the games. Not really what round was Karlos? The 5th because he was a day two talent with udfa reliability If you think we have a magic RB crystal ball or our line is that much better than anyone else I guess we are good to go but I think we would be well served not to play games with the part of the offense that is our identity
Beef Jerky Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 (edited) The 5th because he was a day two talent with udfa reliability If you think we have a magic RB crystal ball or our line is that much better than anyone else I guess we are good to go but I think we would be well served not to play games with the part of the offense that is our identity With a QB on a trial run if anyone goes down the season is a wash anyway. Look toward the future, protecting the past just leads to more years of no playoffs. Edited April 22, 2017 by Beef Jerky
Saxum Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 The 2nd round tender is $2.7mm. If they decide to pay him $4mm this year instead, it would mean that Whaley gambled & lost. If the goal was to get a 5th round pick instead, then it was a job well done. The Bills probably decided to let market determine rate than overpaying but I am sure you have plenty of GMs other than Bills listening to your advice.
Saxum Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 They did fine with MG and Karlos as backups yet they need a good one for some reason... The offensive line makes these average guys look good. Like I say many times look at MG highlight tape and watch how big the holes are And Williams could not run thru them; some of it is the RB. The 5th because he was a day two talent with udfa reliability If you think we have a magic RB crystal ball or our line is that much better than anyone else I guess we are good to go but I think we would be well served not to play games with the part of the offense that is our identity Beef has crystals but not the type you look into; they are the type you buy in an alley while looking for a narc officer.
BADOLBILZ Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 The leap of hope is that McCoach is finally the long term answer and Pegula is giving him the reigns to construct the team. If he's a failure of a head coach, then losing Gilmore, Zach, MG etc is immaterial because we'll be in the rinse repeat cycle again in two years. If he's a good head coach then losing Gilmore, Zach, MG etc is immaterial because McCoach will be on the way to shaping the roster to his desires. You of all people know that an 88 page discussion about the backup RB is irrelevant in the context of finally landing a franchise QB. Then go get in one of the QB threads! Who the f*ck is reading this deep into a thread to criticize the depth of the thread? Do people not know how to ignore a topic they find utterly trivial? Saying in effect that "this season is about McDermott but it doesn't matter until they get a QB anyway" is an inexplicably all-over-the-place take. Bottom line isn't that "this is too many pages for RB2 ....it's that McD is exactly the kind of coach that is going to be about the jimmies and the joe's........not the x's and the o's...........so leave him shorthanded and watch him get dumb real fast. We've seen this with the meticulous control freak Greggo.......the Kordell-whisperer Mularkey.......and the Ivy League Jauron to name a few.........coaches who can't beat you with gamelans need TALENT. If they don't have enough TALENT to win enough matchups head-to-head to win games.........their message starts falling on deaf ears quick because young NFL players get real skeptical fast of coaches that talk playoffs but don't start winning games.
MPT Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 I doubt NE signs Mike if it is a 2nd round tender, a fact lost on so many around here Actually, those of us who supported assigning him a second round tender are well aware of that fact. We are also well aware of the fact that we will now have to pay more to keep him than if we had done so, which seems to be the detail that eludes you. Another fact that seems to escape your understanding is that the Patriots just offered him more money than a second round tender is worth, so the idea that no one would have traded a second round pick for him is now moot. So, there you go. The two most relevant facts support the argument that we should have placed a second round tender on him. And both of those facts were obvious from the start. It shouldn't have been hard for an NFL GM to deduce the sequence of events that followed. Hell, half the fan base saw it coming.
Saxum Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 Actually, those of us who supported assigning him a second round tender are well aware of that fact. We are also well aware of the fact that we will now have to pay more to keep him than if we had done so, which seems to be the detail that eludes you. Really? Bills have been trying to negotiate an extension and you know how much they were offering and whether they were willing to front load it? I am assuming that this was not a discussion line was done with Byrd "Well if you tag my client, my client he will not sign immediately and will not be in camp"? You do not, you are making assumptions based on what you wanted in a 2nd round tender. That is not facts.
Boatdrinks Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 Then go get in one of the QB threads! Who the f*ck is reading this deep into a thread to criticize the depth of the thread? Do people not know how to ignore a topic they find utterly trivial? Saying in effect that "this season is about McDermott but it doesn't matter until they get a QB anyway" is an inexplicably all-over-the-place take. Bottom line isn't that "this is too many pages for RB2 ....it's that McD is exactly the kind of coach that is going to be about the jimmies and the joe's........not the x's and the o's...........so leave him shorthanded and watch him get dumb real fast. We've seen this with the meticulous control freak Greggo.......the Kordell-whisperer Mularkey.......and the Ivy League Jauron to name a few.........coaches who can't beat you with gamelans need TALENT. If they don't have enough TALENT to win enough matchups head-to-head to win games.........their message starts falling on deaf ears quick because young NFL players get real skeptical fast of coaches that talk playoffs but don't start winning games. And again , all this nonsense is about a BACKUP level TALENT.... one that will be replaced if the team decides not to pay him. In efffect that they will find a comparable talent at RB. Something that they've actually done a decent job at over the years ( though one of the few things). Many experts will tell you that it's ALWAYS more about the Jimmys and Joes than Xs and Os. No coach can beat you with just a game plan and minimal talent- consistently , flukes aside. Previous Bills HC failures will have exactly zero effect on whether McDermott can coach or not. We will find out. I'm not too concerned that he will be unable to win because he lacked talent at backup RB. There may be myriad other reasons that he fails or succeeds but Mike Gillislee's being on the roster or not won't be one of them. Lack of talent at QB, WR, the OL, LB and the ability to produce a pass rush or not will have a far greater impact. Whaley is not a good GM and will likely be shown the door before the Bills find themselves in the postseason again. This will be due to a lack of quality starters and not what he was able to do for the backup RB position. Lastly , fans know how to ignore a topic that they find utterly trivial. The amount of attention given too it by others produces amazement and aggravation and well that's part of why we go to message boards.
Boatdrinks Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 (edited) Actually, those of us who supported assigning him a second round tender are well aware of that fact. We are also well aware of the fact that we will now have to pay more to keep him than if we had done so, which seems to be the detail that eludes you. Another fact that seems to escape your understanding is that the Patriots just offered him more money than a second round tender is worth, so the idea that no one would have traded a second round pick for him is now moot. So, there you go. The two most relevant facts support the argument that we should have placed a second round tender on him. And both of those facts were obvious from the start. It shouldn't have been hard for an NFL GM to deduce the sequence of events that followed. Hell, half the fan base saw it coming. You don't and cannot know that at all. You have no idea what the Bills were willing to pay for MGs extension that was being worked on. Is there a chance that MG signs that 2nd round tender an no extension is reached, and he plays under that tender? That by itself would be less costly. Yes, it's possible though not likely the endgame sought by the Bills or MG. A longer term deal is beneficial to both sides. The value of the tender is not just about the money, but having to fork over that 2nd rounder as well. The Pats action shows that the money has less " value" than the draft pick. So it is far from a moot point. It just cements it. They were, in fact, the only team willing to place an offer for even a fifth round selection. It's likely that the Bills felt the market would set the rate for MG and they would either accept it as MG would already have his demand ceiling set for him. Or they would decide to take the draft pick compensation they felt was acceptable and replace MG with a lower cost option. I doubt " half the fan base" saw the Pats extending an offer sheet to a backup RB. The fact that it's NE ( a team that doesn't even run the ball that often) is the only reason anyone even cares. I can't think of a team that a player such as Gillislee could have a smaller impact on the overall fortunes of than the Patriots. The lunacy of this reaction by Bills fans is not lost on some of us. It's not however all that surprising . Edited April 22, 2017 by Boatdrinks
BADOLBILZ Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 And again , all this nonsense is about a BACKUP level TALENT.... one that will be replaced if the team decides not to pay him. In efffect that they will find a comparable talent at RB. Something that they've actually done a decent job at over the years ( though one of the few things). Many experts will tell you that it's ALWAYS more about the Jimmys and Joes than Xs and Os. No coach can beat you with just a game plan and minimal talent- consistently , flukes aside. Previous Bills HC failures will have exactly zero effect on whether McDermott can coach or not. We will find out. I'm not too concerned that he will be unable to win because he lacked talent at backup RB. There may be myriad other reasons that he fails or succeeds but Mike Gillislee's being on the roster or not won't be one of them. Lack of talent at QB, WR, the OL, LB and the ability to produce a pass rush or not will have a far greater impact. Whaley is not a good GM and will likely be shown the door before the Bills find themselves in the postseason again. This will be due to a lack of quality starters and not what he was able to do for the backup RB position. Lastly , fans know how to ignore a topic that they find utterly trivial. The amount of attention given too it by others produces amazement and aggravation and well that's part of why we go to message boards. Wow. Some of you have selective/short memories. Prior to Fred Jackson they didn't find any gems at RB for two decades. THEY DRAFTED THEM IN THE FIRST TWO ROUNDS.......Antowain Smith, Travis Henry, Willis McGahee, Marshawn Lynch, CJ Spiller. If you are keeping score that's 4 firsts and a second on the RB position in 11 years........and 3 firsts in a 7 year span. Karlos was less of a gem than a low risk 5th round gamble on a suspected double-crossing drug dealer.......and all they got was one partial season out of the deal because of.......wait for it......drugs. FACT: Gillislee is actually only the second gem they've unearthed at the position since signing Kenny Davis in plan B in 1989. The Bills have a horrendous track record in this regard......almost impossibly futile.....a fact I've brought up many times over the years as they found themselves constantly going back to the well in round 1 to draft a RB. With Shady at the precipice it's not at all inconceivable that they could be back at the well early next year.......which is just not the way to go. Also........it's funny how so many of the same people who justified the foolish Shady extension because he "was a playmaker".........now say the NFL league leader in YPA AND SOMEHOW ALSO short yardage conversions is not worth $3M because he's "a backup".
Boatdrinks Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 Wow. Some of you have selective/short memories. Prior to Fred Jackson they didn't find any gems at RB for two decades. THEY DRAFTED THEM IN THE FIRST TWO ROUNDS.......Antowain Smith, Travis Henry, Willis McGahee, Marshawn Lynch, CJ Spiller. If you are keeping score that's 4 firsts and a second on the RB position in 11 years........and 3 firsts in a 7 year span. Karlos was less of a gem than a low risk 5th round gamble on a suspected double-crossing drug dealer.......and all they got was one partial season out of the deal because of.......wait for it......drugs. FACT: Gillislee is actually only the second gem they've unearthed at the position since signing Kenny Davis in plan B in 1989. The Bills have a horrendous track record in this regard......almost impossibly futile.....a fact I've brought up many times over the years as they found themselves constantly going back to the well in round 1 to draft a RB. With Shady at the precipice it's not at all inconceivable that they could be back at the well early next year.......which is just not the way to go. Also........it's funny how so many of the same people who justified the foolish Shady extension because he "was a playmaker".........now say the NFL league leader in YPA AND SOMEHOW ALSO short yardage conversions is not worth $3M because he's "a backup". I was referring to K Williams and MG. You, know the guys relevant to D Whaley the current GM? I don't give a f**k what they did at the backup RB position 6 years ago or twenty years ago or whatever . DW has shown he can find a good RB to be the backup. I can't think of anything less relevant than what other GMs who don't work for the Bills anymore were able to do, so thanks for that whatever it was supposed to show. I've never tried to argue for using a high draft pick on an RB in the current NFL and hated the Spiller pick fwiw. I wasn't talking about all time - in the 90's a first round RB was common it was a different era and not relevant to finding an RB now. A devalued position that should be easy to fill at the backup level.
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