Boatdrinks Posted April 18, 2017 Posted April 18, 2017 Because most fans have no idea what they are talking about. The Bills were horrible in Polian's first season and dumb fans would have wanted to fire him. He inherited Kelly, got to draft Peyton #1, and got multiple top 5 picks with the Panthers. If Whaley got Luck with the #1 pick, he would be one of the best GMs in the NFL. They have Tom Brady. It's really that simple. They have drafted plenty of busts. Let's not diminish one the great GMs by putting his name in the same sentence as Whaleys. Yes, the Bills were bad in Polians first year but they were coming off historically bad times. No free agency and couldn't turn it around overnight . The Bills may have had Kelly's rights , but it was far from a slam dunk getting him here. He wanted to play in LA, and Ralph was notoriously tight with the purse strings. It took some real doing to get that deal done. He also had some very good drafts when the team was winning, some real gems without the benefit of high picks. The drafting quality sure went down after he departed. As for Manning there was real debate over him and Leaf. Mannings arm was suspect and he never could beat Florida in college. It's seems laughable now, but ESPN mag had a split photo of them on the cover before that draft and it said " Manning or Leaf". Obviously BP made the right choice, but the great GMs have foresight where we all have hindsight . Getting a team of cast offs to the playoffs as an expansion team even with the high picks was an accomplishment. Many teams perennially get high picks and can't get there. Polian was great. Whaley is a mediocre to poor drafter of players and lacks foresight in his planning. This has become rather obvious. He's ok as a pro personnel guy and has found a few diamonds in the bargain bin. Overall not a good GM though, and would never have put together the team Polian did in the glory days.
Paup 1995MVP Posted April 18, 2017 Posted April 18, 2017 We had 3 draft picks that either did not play or were limited in their play from this last draft If Lawson, Ragland, and Listenbee have significant contributions this year......Whaley will look much better and he signed 2 pro bowlers off the scrap heap....and had 2 players that were runner for defensive rookie of the year so frankly....i dont get it What don't you get? He drafted TWO players that were injured last year and were unable to contribute almost anything to the team. That is up there with drafting an injured Willis McGahee in the first round in 2003, when he was not going to play that year, and was coming back from a devastating knee injury. And we already had a very good RB in Travis Henry. Lawson played some, but was ineffective after missing half the season. And Listenbee saw as much playing time as I did. Couple that with the EJ Manuel pick in 2013, and you have a pretty piss poor record as a GM. We had the least amount of drafted players on our roster this past season. And our QB situation has been a mess as well. Need I say more?
BADOLBILZ Posted April 18, 2017 Posted April 18, 2017 (edited) Yes because Kolb didn't have an injury history. Some competition that was. It was rigged from the start even before his injury. Whaleys been ok. I wouldn't say worst in the league, but towards the bottom for sure. This will be his 5th year and to this point he's got nothing to show for it. Not many GMs would've lasted this long but he's getting a longer leash because the owner doesn't really know what to do. That is the TRUTH. If they had any idea how to handle the situation he'd have been gone. Not because he's AWFUL.....HOW bad he's been isn't the point.......it's just because he's not been good/effective.........and that's all it generally takes to get the hook from a GM job. GM's aren't like QB's.......there could easily be 100 lesser ranked executives in the NFL right now that could do a better job than Whaley...........it's plausible........it's not a "planet theory" job.......the Pegula's just don't know where to even start. Edited April 18, 2017 by #BADOL
C.Biscuit97 Posted April 18, 2017 Posted April 18, 2017 Let's not diminish one the great GMs by putting his name in the same sentence as Whaleys. Yes, the Bills were bad in Polians first year but they were coming off historically bad times. No free agency and couldn't turn it around overnight . The Bills may have had Kelly's rights , but it was far from a slam dunk getting him here. He wanted to play in LA, and Ralph was notoriously tight with the purse strings. It took some real doing to get that deal done. He also had some very good drafts when the team was winning, some real gems without the benefit of high picks. The drafting quality sure went down after he departed. As for Manning there was real debate over him and Leaf. Mannings arm was suspect and he never could beat Florida in college. It's seems laughable now, but ESPN mag had a split photo of them on the cover before that draft and it said " Manning or Leaf". Obviously BP made the right choice, but the great GMs have foresight where we all have hindsight . Getting a team of cast offs to the playoffs as an expansion team even with the high picks was an accomplishment. Many teams perennially get high picks and can't get there. Polian was great. Whaley is a mediocre to poor drafter of players and lacks foresight in his planning. This has become rather obvious. He's ok as a pro personnel guy and has found a few diamonds in the bargain bin. Overall not a good GM though, and would never have put together the team Polian did in the glory days. Point was that Whaley isn't that much further off from an all time great. And if you didn't think being given Kelly, getting 2 1 overall picks, & multiple top 5 picks didn't immensely help Polian, you're out of your mind. Polian was a great GM but was give a ton of help and picked his spots well. Again, if Whaley was handed a HOF qb like Polian was twice, he'd be one of the best GMs in the NFL. It's that simple.
dave mcbride Posted April 18, 2017 Posted April 18, 2017 Good point. Either way, this Whaley hate is pretty stupid. Of course if message boards existed back then, people would have freaked out Marv Levely being hired and wanted Kelly benched. Another great point! Whaley hasn't done a good thing! Well expect that Sammy has had a much better start to his career than Andre; McCoy averaged 5.4 ypc, more than any season in Thurman's career. But I'm sure Whaley won't have benefited from starting off with Bruce and Kelly being handed to him to start his career as a GM. To be fair, you can't compare Thomas and McCoy on ypc alone. That's simply misleading. Thomas was an incredible receiver, averaging over 10 yards per reception in his first five years. That's amazing for a RB. McCoy averaged over 10 yards once (10.4 yards). Thomas was a significantly better receiver than McCoy--better hands and a far better route runner.
Boatdrinks Posted April 18, 2017 Posted April 18, 2017 Point was that Whaley isn't that much further off from an all time great. And if you didn't think being given Kelly, getting 2 1 overall picks, & multiple top 5 picks didn't immensely help Polian, you're out of your mind. Polian was a great GM but was give a ton of help and picked his spots well. Again, if Whaley was handed a HOF qb like Polian was twice, he'd be one of the best GMs in the NFL. It's that simple. This couldn't be further from the truth , and Whaley is light years off from Polian. He actually said that EJ Manuel had the " it factor". So much of being a good GM is instinct and trusting your gut. Polian had that. Sure, some luck helps with slotting of picks. Plenty of GMs have spent them on the wrong guy, though. He just didn't make a lot of big mistakes. Great GMs aren't always right , but they are most of the time. It's just silly to think of Whaley as a competent GM. I wouldn't be surprised if Whaleys gut told him that Leaf was the choice. Whaley doesn't have the "it" factor that the great GMs do.
oldmanfan Posted April 18, 2017 Posted April 18, 2017 What don't you get? He drafted TWO players that were injured last year and were unable to contribute almost anything to the team. That is up there with drafting an injured Willis McGahee in the first round in 2003, when he was not going to play that year, and was coming back from a devastating knee injury. And we already had a very good RB in Travis Henry. Lawson played some, but was ineffective after missing half the season. And Listenbee saw as much playing time as I did. Couple that with the EJ Manuel pick in 2013, and you have a pretty piss poor record as a GM. We had the least amount of drafted players on our roster this past season. And our QB situation has been a mess as well. Need I say more? Ragland got hurt in camp. Should we now expect GMs to have ESP and predict the future?
C.Biscuit97 Posted April 18, 2017 Posted April 18, 2017 To be fair, you can't compare Thomas and McCoy on ypc alone. That's simply misleading. Thomas was an incredible receiver, averaging over 10 yards per reception in his first five years. That's amazing for a RB. McCoy averaged over 10 yards once (10.4 yards). Thomas was a significantly better receiver than McCoy--better hands and a far better route runner. For the record Dave, I'm not saying McCoy is better than Thomas though McCoy is a borderline HOFer. But teams run much less often now than in Thomas' days. To average 5.4 ypc on as many carries as McCoy had is impressive no matter what year it is. And it just goes to show that there must be some good talent on this team to do that. This couldn't be further from the truth , and Whaley is light years off from Polian. He actually said that EJ Manuel had the " it factor". So much of being a good GM is instinct and trusting your gut. Polian had that. Sure, some luck helps with slotting of picks. Plenty of GMs have spent them on the wrong guy, though. He just didn't make a lot of big mistakes. Great GMs aren't always right , but they are most of the time. It's just silly to think of Whaley as a competent GM. I wouldn't be surprised if Whaleys gut told him that Leaf was the choice. Whaley doesn't have the "it" factor that the great GMs do. A guy believe in a qb he drafted??? Fire him now. Polian was handed Kelly and Peyton. Polian also built a team that went 2-14 without Peyton. We won 9 games with EJ and Orton. But I guess there was no talent on those teams.
Boatdrinks Posted April 18, 2017 Posted April 18, 2017 (edited) Good point. Either way, this Whaley hate is pretty stupid. Of course if message boards existed back then, people would have freaked out Marv Levely being hired and wanted Kelly benched. Another great point! Whaley hasn't done a good thing! Well expect that Sammy has had a much better start to his career than Andre; McCoy averaged 5.4 ypc, more than any season in Thurman's career. But I'm sure Whaley won't have benefited from starting off with Bruce and Kelly being handed to him to start his career as a GM. There were no message boards, but there were radio talk shows. And yes, they could get pretty stupid. Some folks in BUF wanted Polian to take Flutie with the 1st overall pick in '85. To heck with Bruce Smith or even Ray Childress ( Polians other consideration) lol... Fans also wanted Reich to continue as starter after Kelly's shoulder injury in '89 and in '92 playoffs. Lots of idiocy in those times just on the airwaves and not the net. Edited April 18, 2017 by Boatdrinks
dave mcbride Posted April 18, 2017 Posted April 18, 2017 (edited) For the record Dave, I'm not saying McCoy is better than Thomas though McCoy is a borderline HOFer. But teams run much less often now than in Thomas' days. To average 5.4 ypc on as many carries as McCoy had is impressive no matter what year it is. And it just goes to show that there must be some good talent on this team to do that. A guy believe in a qb he drafted??? Fire him now. Polian was handed Kelly and Peyton. Polian also built a team that went 2-14 without Peyton. We won 9 games with EJ and Orton. But I guess there was no talent on those teams. I don't disagree about McCoy - he's a top five NFL RB. PS - check out the links to the Bills' deep interest in Wentz in the other thread. Edited April 18, 2017 by dave mcbride
C.Biscuit97 Posted April 18, 2017 Posted April 18, 2017 I don't disagree about McCoy - he's a top five NFL RB. PS - check out the links to the Bills' deep interest in Wentz in the other thread. But I was told by posters here that Whaley has tried nothing to address the qb position. There were no message boards, but there were radio talk shows. And yes, they could get pretty stupid. Some folks in BUF wanted Polian to take Flutie with the 1st overall pick in '85. To heck with Bruce Smith or even Ray Childress ( Polians other consideration) lol... Fans also wanted Reich to continue as starter after Kelly's shoulder injury in '89 and in '92 playoffs. Lots of idiocy in those times just on the airwaves and not the net. God, I wish message boards existed. Of course, people said the Pats were done after they lost to KC on MNF a couple of years ago.
Boatdrinks Posted April 18, 2017 Posted April 18, 2017 For the record Dave, I'm not saying McCoy is better than Thomas though McCoy is a borderline HOFer. But teams run much less often now than in Thomas' days. To average 5.4 ypc on as many carries as McCoy had is impressive no matter what year it is. And it just goes to show that there must be some good talent on this team to do that. A guy believe in a qb he drafted??? Fire him now. Polian was handed Kelly and Peyton. Polian also built a team that went 2-14 without Peyton. We won 9 games with EJ and Orton. But I guess there was no talent on those teams. Not saying the team has or had no talent. But the Bills best players in recent times have largely been FAs not guys that they drafted. Believing in a guy that your instincts were wrong on does not make you a great GM. It's a fine line, but some guys just have the knack for sensing what makes a player tick. What could make them great , or JAG.
dave mcbride Posted April 18, 2017 Posted April 18, 2017 But I was told by posters here that Whaley has tried nothing to address the qb position. Not from me! If I would fault him for anything, it'd be on Carr - a clear first round talent who I firmly believe dropped because of his brother and the fact that said brother went to the same school. That's judging a type, not an individual. In retrospect, Carr merited a first round pick on production and clear physical talent alone. But every other team passed on him too.
Boatdrinks Posted April 18, 2017 Posted April 18, 2017 But I was told by posters here that Whaley has tried nothing to address the qb position. God, I wish message boards existed. Of course, people said the Pats were done after they lost to KC on MNF a couple of years ago. That was wishful thinking. I hoped it was going to be true, but never believed it. I won't dance on that grave until I'm certain it's over
row_33 Posted April 18, 2017 Posted April 18, 2017 What's the criteria? Does having a new fish for an owner and outcast GM hurt the team overall?
C.Biscuit97 Posted April 18, 2017 Posted April 18, 2017 Not saying the team has or had no talent. But the Bills best players in recent times have largely been FAs not guys that they drafted. Believing in a guy that your instincts were wrong on does not make you a great GM. It's a fine line, but some guys just have the knack for sensing what makes a player tick. What could make them great , or JAG. 1) Jerry Hughes for Kelvin Sheppard. One of the best trades in the last 10 years. 2) McCoy for Kiko, coming off knee surgery. One of the best trades in 10 years. Isn't part of being a GM acquiring talent by any means necessary. I'm not a giant TT fan but you could argue he is one of the most successful FA qbs of the last 5 years. Incognito was a great move. When you don't have an elite qb, all your misses are magnified. Last year, if you trade Brady for Taylor, there's not a doubt in mind we are SB contenders.
Nihilarian Posted April 18, 2017 Posted April 18, 2017 Because most fans have no idea what they are talking about. The Bills were horrible in Polian's first season and dumb fans would have wanted to fire him. He inherited Kelly, got to draft Peyton #1, and got multiple top 5 picks with the Panthers. If Whaley got Luck with the #1 pick, he would be one of the best GMs in the NFL. They have Tom Brady. It's really that simple. They have drafted plenty of busts. Polian didn't draft Jim Kelly. Although he managed to get one of the most frugal owners in the NFL to make Ole Jim the highest paid QB in the league. Polian saw the talent in Kelly and had to have him. He also built a playoff team in three short years in every city he was the GM with. Buffalo, Indy and an expansion team. There is a real reason the man is in the PF HOF BTW, Polian stated he would have replaced Whaley had he been hired in Buffalo. In 4 years Whaley is 30-34 in Buffalo. While I can't hold him completely accountable because the guy above him has a baseball/ marketing/finance background and he has been left to his own devices. While it's also true that Whaley did the trades for Hughes and McCoy, he also didn't initiate them either. Let's not forget that the imbicile GM in Indy that was recently fired first called the Bills wanting to get rid of Poilan's last first round pick. Now out of the league Eagle HC Chip Kelly was stupid enough to want to dump McCoy. I look at McCoy and Charles Clay as overpaid talent because the Bills couldn't find that quality talent in the draft. Also, Incognito and Tyrod Taylor are others that Whley gets credit for and yet if not for Rex Ryan those two would not be Buffalo Bills. The Bills lost Chris Hogan, Stephon Gilmore, to the Patriots and now possiably Gillislee. The Bills are working towards officially being NE farm club. I look at this team and I see so may holes in the roster after four years. WR a huge need after 3 draft picks, two numbers ones in 2014 for a WR who is always injured. A number two pick in 2013 on a WR who now plays for the Rams. Corner is a huge need because the team didn't care to resign the #1 pick from 2012 and so he ended up on the Patriots. LBer and safety are both needs for quality talent as is the RT position. Bills fans are too nice and never want to see anyone fired...it's overdue.
Buffalo Barbarian Posted April 18, 2017 Posted April 18, 2017 http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/nfl/71467/57/nfls-best-gms-2017?pg=3 Only GMs ranked below him were just hired this offseason They ranked him 17th last year yep . This probably why he has a reduced role and will be basically a draft board stacker, while the "group" makes picks He's definitely the worst in the league. I'm still shocked the guy is here. Horrible move not to can him months ago. could be one of those after the draft firings that wasn't done earlier because they were too far into college player analysis.
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