FireChan Posted April 18, 2017 Posted April 18, 2017 Define within reason. Easy for us sitting on the sidelines to say these kinds of things, hard for the guys with the job. 1 round ahead of grade is a reasonable reach, easily. If the Bills had a second round grade on Carr, taking him at #8 or trading back and taking him at #20 would've changed this whole franchise.
Figster Posted April 18, 2017 Posted April 18, 2017 1 round ahead of grade is a reasonable reach, easily. If the Bills had a second round grade on Carr, taking him at #8 or trading back and taking him at #20 would've changed this whole franchise. Makes sense to me, If you see a guy you really like chances are another team feels the same way. Probably the approach taken on E J ...
FireChan Posted April 18, 2017 Posted April 18, 2017 Makes sense to me, If you see a guy you really like chances are another team feels the same way. Probably the approach taken on E J ... EJ was not the big deal it's made out to be. QB's suck all the time. Hardly the Bills' fault.
Figster Posted April 18, 2017 Posted April 18, 2017 EJ was not the big deal it's made out to be. QB's suck all the time. Hardly the Bills' fault. Reaching in a poor draft class becomes more of a reach...
FireChan Posted April 18, 2017 Posted April 18, 2017 Reaching in a poor draft class becomes more of a reach... Less actually. We missed out on less quality players because that draft sucked.
yungmack Posted April 18, 2017 Posted April 18, 2017 A few "Can't Miss" misses off the top of my head: Tim Couch, Jeff George, Ryan Leaf, Todd Marinovich...given time, I'm sure I'd come up with a bunch more...
TUBSTER Posted April 19, 2017 Posted April 19, 2017 So if we want a guy we just have to wait till a later round and it will make him better
BillsFan17 Posted April 19, 2017 Posted April 19, 2017 Agreed but look at some of the best qbs in the NFL: Brees, Brady, Rodgers, Big Ben, Palmer. These guys all sat. Media and the fans have more access to be annoying. We love calling qbs busts after start one. History says most qbs benefit from learning from a veteran qb and not being rushed on the field. Unfortunately, there is no patience anymore. I am 100% in favor of drafting a qb high this year and letting them start on the bench. Brees was a second rounder and Brady a sixth. Big Ben didn't sit, he actually played in 14 games, starting 13 of them. Palmer did sit, behind Kitna who I'm almost sure won come back player of the year. Rodgers was a very interesting case. No one knew when Favre was going to retire... the value was way to good for them to pass up. Especially considering they drafted QB almost every year regardless. There are very few QBs playing today who were truly developmental types that sat and panned out.
C.Biscuit97 Posted April 19, 2017 Posted April 19, 2017 Brees was a second rounder and Brady a sixth. Big Ben didn't sit, he actually played in 14 games, starting 13 of them. Palmer did sit, behind Kitna who I'm almost sure won come back player of the year. Rodgers was a very interesting case. No one knew when Favre was going to retire... the value was way to good for them to pass up. Especially considering they drafted QB almost every year regardless. There are very few QBs playing today who were truly developmental types that sat and panned out. Big Ben only started after Maddox got injured. Eli and Rivers were the 1st and 4th picks of their draft and didn't start right away. We definitely see more young qbs starting right away but I'd argue that the majority of the great qbs were given time to learn on the job and not forced on the field right away. Unreal expectations crush these guys.
oldmanfan Posted April 19, 2017 Posted April 19, 2017 A lot of guys coming in now have limited if any experience taking a direct snap from center. Guys coming out now need even more time to develop, but fans and owners want immediate results. It adds up to more and more QB failures.
Figster Posted April 19, 2017 Posted April 19, 2017 Less actually. We missed out on less quality players because that draft sucked. QB's get elevated above where they should be because supply doesn't meet demand,
BillsFan17 Posted April 19, 2017 Posted April 19, 2017 Big Ben only started after Maddox got injured. Eli and Rivers were the 1st and 4th picks of their draft and didn't start right away. We definitely see more young qbs starting right away but I'd argue that the majority of the great qbs were given time to learn on the job and not forced on the field right away. Unreal expectations crush these guys. The plan was for all those guys in '04 to sit. Eli was pushed into action over a Hall of Famer in Warner. Big Ben got thrust into action due to injury, Rivers sat behind a future hall of Famer and Losman sat with a broken leg... But, if you look back in the day none of those big times guys sat... Elway, Marino, Aikman, Peyton Manning, Bradshaw, etc... Fact of the matter is there is no real correlation between sitting and having success. Does it lend it's hand to allowing a guy to take in the rigors of the NFL, yes. However, there is no substitute for live game action. You can do all the film study in the world. Have the best seats in the house directly on the sideline and still not translate it. Heck, how long did Tyrod sit behind Flacco? Yet, many, my self included don't envision Tyrod as the future here.
C.Biscuit97 Posted April 19, 2017 Posted April 19, 2017 (edited) The plan was for all those guys in '04 to sit. Eli was pushed into action over a Hall of Famer in Warner. Big Ben got thrust into action due to injury, Rivers sat behind a future hall of Famer and Losman sat with a broken leg... But, if you look back in the day none of those big times guys sat... Elway, Marino, Aikman, Peyton Manning, Bradshaw, etc... Fact of the matter is there is no real correlation between sitting and having success. Does it lend it's hand to allowing a guy to take in the rigors of the NFL, yes. However, there is no substitute for live game action. You can do all the film study in the world. Have the best seats in the house directly on the sideline and still not translate it. Heck, how long did Tyrod sit behind Flacco? Yet, many, my self included don't envision Tyrod as the future here. 1) the media and fans would destroy all those guys if they won 1 & 3 games their rookie years. They would be called busts and fans would want them to draft a new qb. Aikman went 0-11 as a rookie with a 53%, 9 tds to 18 INTs. EJ, for example, went 4-6 as a rookie with a 59% and 11 tds and 9 INTs. Think about how he was perceived, now imagine if he had Aikman's rookie year. No one has the patience to develop a qb. 2) I don't think Tyrod is the answer either. But he is a serviceable qb at first. If he had to play as a rookie, he'd probs let be out of the league now. Sitting was the best thing for him considering he was an under 60% every season in college. 3) I'm all for playing a guy right away. I'd rather draft a guy, have an open camp, & let the best man play. But how many fans and media would be in ok with the struggles that every rookie qb has? 4) the NFL badly needs a minor league. With arena football, we never have Kurt Warner. There are a ton of young qbs who are ruined because they play too early, struggle, & then get tossed aside. Personally, I'd love a summer league where backup NFL qbs compete with fringe players. Edited April 19, 2017 by C.Biscuit97
Figster Posted April 19, 2017 Posted April 19, 2017 1) the media and fans would destroy all those guys if they won 1 & 3 games their rookie years. They would be called busts and fans would want them to draft a new qb. Aikman went 0-11 as a rookie with a 53%, 9 tds to 18 INTs. EJ, for example, went 4-6 as a rookie with a 59% and 11 tds and 9 INTs. Think about how he was perceived, now imagine if he had Aikman's rookie year. No one has the patience to develop a qb. 2) I don't think Tyrod is the answer either. But he is a serviceable qb at first. If he had to play as a rookie, he'd probs let be out of the league now. Sitting was the best thing for him considering he was an under 60% every season in college. 3) I'm all for playing a guy right away. I'd rather draft a guy, have an open camp, & let the best man play. But how many fans and media would be in ok with the struggles that every rookie qb has? 4) the NFL badly needs a minor league. With arena football, we never have Kurt Warner. There are a ton of young qbs who are ruined because they play too early, struggle, & then get tossed aside. Personally, I'd love a summer league where backup NFL qbs compete with fringe players. Good post
BillsFan17 Posted April 19, 2017 Posted April 19, 2017 1) the media and fans would destroy all those guys if they won 1 & 3 games their rookie years. They would be called busts and fans would want them to draft a new qb. Aikman went 0-11 as a rookie with a 53%, 9 tds to 18 INTs. EJ, for example, went 4-6 as a rookie with a 59% and 11 tds and 9 INTs. Think about how he was perceived, now imagine if he had Aikman's rookie year. No one has the patience to develop a qb. 2) I don't think Tyrod is the answer either. But he is a serviceable qb at first. If he had to play as a rookie, he'd probs let be out of the league now. Sitting was the best thing for him considering he was an under 60% every season in college. 3) I'm all for playing a guy right away. I'd rather draft a guy, have an open camp, & let the best man play. But how many fans and media would be in ok with the struggles that every rookie qb has? 4) the NFL badly needs a minor league. With arena football, we never have Kurt Warner. There are a ton of young qbs who are ruined because they play too early, struggle, & then get tossed aside. Personally, I'd love a summer league where backup NFL qbs compete with fringe players. What you laid out here is exactly what I have been saying all along. The NFL is based way to much on instant gratification. These players either play early or fall victim to being replaced with the next best thing in the draft. i.e. the Panthers take Clausen high in the second round, he gets forced into action early only the be replaced by Cam Newton the vry next year. Heck there is heavy discussion the Jets will take a QB despite taking Hack in the second last year. Fact of the matter is, the shelf life of these coaches is hinged so tightly on the success of their QB that very few will go down with that ship. We saw Marrone absolutely refuse to tie his to Manuel. Again, with their being little proof that sitting is always the answer, esp for high picks, you know as well as I do, they will be put in a potion to sink or swim a lot sooner than anticipated. As far as a developmental league. NFL Europe used to be something like that. Again alluding tp shelf life. Look how long some of these players last in the nfl as is, putting them in a league like that could shorten their NFL career that much more. Heck, I have friends who are Giants fans who don't want Bolles in the first because he's already 25.
C.Biscuit97 Posted April 19, 2017 Posted April 19, 2017 What you laid out here is exactly what I have been saying all along. The NFL is based way to much on instant gratification. These players either play early or fall victim to being replaced with the next best thing in the draft. i.e. the Panthers take Clausen high in the second round, he gets forced into action early only the be replaced by Cam Newton the vry next year. Heck there is heavy discussion the Jets will take a QB despite taking Hack in the second last year. Fact of the matter is, the shelf life of these coaches is hinged so tightly on the success of their QB that very few will go down with that ship. We saw Marrone absolutely refuse to tie his to Manuel. Again, with their being little proof that sitting is always the answer, esp for high picks, you know as well as I do, they will be put in a potion to sink or swim a lot sooner than anticipated. As far as a developmental league. NFL Europe used to be something like that. Again alluding tp shelf life. Look how long some of these players last in the nfl as is, putting them in a league like that could shorten their NFL career that much more. Heck, I have friends who are Giants fans who don't want Bolles in the first because he's already 25. Agree and good post. But this is why your GM and coach need to be on the same page with qbs. It's also why I think it's the perfect time to draft one. No pressure to play right away and can develop someone slowly.
BillsFan17 Posted April 19, 2017 Posted April 19, 2017 Agree and good post. But this is why your GM and coach need to be on the same page with qbs. It's also why I think it's the perfect time to draft one. No pressure to play right away and can develop someone slowly. But, now in all honesty, do you think if we drafted a kid they would truly "redshirt" so to speak? Cause if right now there is a guarantee that any of Warson Trubisky Mahomes Peterman Would absolutely sit, than sign me up. I absolutely think these kids have potential if they aren't rushed. Then again, I thought that about Manuel, who was, inevitably rushed due to the injury to Kolb. I just get the sense teams like us, Browns, 49ers, Jets, are just so desperate for that franchise QB... Miami was incredibly desperate when they took Tannehill, who like Trubisky was uber raw at the position with limited starting experience in college. Granted Tannehill changed positions, but you get the point. Yet, Tannehill ended up starting day one. We know Tyrod's playing style will lend it self to injury and even worse off, I don't think this is a playoff roster. Combine those and I don't see a way a first rounder doesn't get forced into action. Again, like I said,if I knew there was a full fledged guarantee that these kids wouldn't play, then take one...
Formerly Allan in MD Posted April 19, 2017 Posted April 19, 2017 Most qbs drafted will fail. It's laughable how people try to pretend like they know anything about scouting qbs. That said and I know everyone hates him, but a guy like EJ might have had a better chance if he went later in the draft to a better team. One of the best things that happened to Tyrod is getting drafted in the 6th and playing for Baltimore. A lot less pressure to develop. But the main problem with the Bills is they have no plan. Once they played EJ, he should have gotten 2 years to play through the struggles. If they draft a guy and don't want him to play right away, then let him sit. It's why now is the perfect time to draft a qb. No pressure to play right away. Spot on until you got to EJ. The chances of him suddenly becoming accurate and developing a feel for the game were slim to none.
Figster Posted April 19, 2017 Posted April 19, 2017 Spot on until you got to EJ. The chances of him suddenly becoming accurate and developing a feel for the game were slim to none. E J still wasn't planned out and developed properly, I think is the point MD
Thurman#1 Posted April 19, 2017 Posted April 19, 2017 (edited) Agents Take: Recent draft history shows first-round QBs are more likely to fail http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/agents-take-recent-draft-history-shows-first-round-qbs-are-more-likely-to-fail/ It's a stupid argument. He's saying out of 26 QBs only eight are successes. But if you read all the way to the end you see he's also saying the jury is out on eight more and he's including Jameis and Mariota in that group, not among the successes. That leaves eight successes and ten failures. That's not bad odds. But, now in all honesty, do you think if we drafted a kid they would truly "redshirt" so to speak? Cause if right now there is a guarantee that any of Warson Trubisky Mahomes Peterman Would absolutely sit, than sign me up. I absolutely think these kids have potential if they aren't rushed. Then again, I thought that about Manuel, who was, inevitably rushed due to the injury to Kolb. I just get the sense teams like us, Browns, 49ers, Jets, are just so desperate for that franchise QB... Miami was incredibly desperate when they took Tannehill, who like Trubisky was uber raw at the position with limited starting experience in college. Granted Tannehill changed positions, but you get the point. Yet, Tannehill ended up starting day one. We know Tyrod's playing style will lend it self to injury and even worse off, I don't think this is a playoff roster. Combine those and I don't see a way a first rounder doesn't get forced into action. Again, like I said,if I knew there was a full fledged guarantee that these kids wouldn't play, then take one... Absolutely they would redshirt a guy like Trubisky if they took him. That's probably a large part of the reason that Tyrod is still here. You're right that if Tyrod were injured things would look a bit different, but IMHO that would be Yates time. Edited April 19, 2017 by Thurman#1
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