Bill_with_it Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 ...unless the injury is within the scope of his job. Please read it again. Watkins injury clearly is within the scope of his job, hence it is guaranteed.No its not read the reat of the paragraph:For purposes of this Subsection only, any contract termination due to the failure of the player to establish or maintain his excellent physical condition will be subject to review of a neutral physician appointed by the parties, whose physical findings will be conclusive in any arbitration proceeding relating to the physical condition of the player at the time of the exam, provided that such exam takes place within twenty (20) days of the contract termination. Read more: http://www.thefootballeducator.com/nfl-cba-article-10-franchise-transition-players/#ixzz4eEtGJXSv
Kirby Jackson Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 (edited) No its not read the reat of the paragraph: For purposes of this Subsection only, any contract termination due to the failure of the player to establish or maintain his excellent physical condition will be subject to review of a neutral physician appointed by the parties, whose physical findings will be conclusive in any arbitration proceeding relating to the physical condition of the player at the time of the exam, provided that such exam takes place within twenty (20) days of the contract termination. Read more: http://www.thefootballeducator.com/nfl-cba-article-10-franchise-transition-players/#ixzz4eEtGJXSv You skipped the part right above it!! If a player subject to a Franchise Player designation accepts the Required Tender, the resulting Player Contract shall be fully guaranteed if the players contract is terminated because of lack of comparative skill; as a result of an injury sustained in the performance of his services under his Player Contract; and/or due to a Clubs determination to create Room for Salary Cap purposes. Edited April 14, 2017 by Kirby Jackson
thebandit27 Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 No matter what you do to try to muddy the watters his pay isnt guaranteed against injury if we franchise him and yards per target is not a meteic that any rational evaluator would ise to determine a wrs starus as elite. Point still stands TD mike has higg yards per carry are you going to pay him top hb money? No that would be silly because he hasnt shown a propensity to perform at that level in any sustained manner. You're reaching badly. What you're referring to has never happened in the history of the tag...it's a non-issue. If you can still make the Gillislee comparison, then I'm 100% sure that you didn't read what I wrote, else you wouldn't be asking if I'd pay him top-10 money when I already explained it.
Bill_with_it Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 You're reaching badly. What you're referring to has never happened in the history of the tag...it's a non-issue. If you can still make the Gillislee comparison, then I'm 100% sure that you didn't read what I wrote, else you wouldn't be asking if I'd pay him top-10 money when I already explained it. You made a holistic declaration that was untrue as you have evey time I have interacted with you. Its in the rule book. If the bills were against the cap they could take it to arbitration hence the money isnt guaranteed. You explained nothing you reached by using one of the most obscure stats that you came up with that isnt a stat that determines a wrs worth. If it was then Jordi nelson, Malcom Floyd, Marquise Colston, Vincent Jackson, and Henry Allard would have been paid top money. They havent because GMs dont recognize that stat as an indication of worth.
RyanC883 Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 Statements like this tell me that some folks still don't know how to evaluate performance. Example: did you know that Sammy Watkins lead the entire NFL in yards/target for the cumulative seasons of 2014 and 2015? He's outpacing the league on a per-target basis. His only issue has been availability, and even then, he's missed the same number of games through 3 seasons as Julio Jones did (and Demaryius Thomas and Antonio Brown as well). At his prime, he is a top 3 WR in the NFL. For the reasons you stated. Plus, consider the QB's throwing the ball to Jones and Brown. (Ryan and Big Ben)
thebandit27 Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 (edited) You made a holistic declaration that was untrue as you have evey time I have interacted with you. Its in the rule book. If the bills were against the cap they could take it to arbitration hence the money isnt guaranteed. You explained nothing you reached by using one of the most obscure stats that you came up with that isnt a stat that determines a wrs worth. If it was then Jordi nelson, Malcom Floyd, Marquise Colston, Vincent Jackson, and Henry Allard would have been paid top money. They havent because GMs dont recognize that stat as an indication of worth. No, you once again are clinging to irrelevant minutiae (via a never used loophole) to try to further a ridiculous argument (as you do every time). You don't deal in reality, you deal in tangential points at best. You also don't read my posts, or any posts that disagree with whatever diatribe you're currently on--else you wouldn't be harping on the YPT stat since it was never central to my argument. It was merely a representation that encapsulated the point I was making. You either ignored that or you don't understand it (neither would surprise me), but I explained my position quite well. The guy produces as a #1 WR despite receiving FAR fewer opportunities than other bona fide #1 WRs in the NFL. But go ahead and prattle on about a never-used loophole in the CBA that doesn't in any way apply to the situation, and while you're at it, continue to pigeon hole the argument down to "I don't like YPT as a stat!!11!11!!!"; it's definitely working So here we are again: you've abandoned reality, and so I'm abandoning you on this discussion. Edited April 14, 2017 by thebandit27
TheElectricCompany Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 At his prime, he is a top 3 WR in the NFL. For the reasons you stated. Plus, consider the QB's throwing the ball to Jones and Brown. (Ryan and Big Ben) Lol. Top 3?? I can't even give this a serious response
C.Biscuit97 Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 (edited) Lol. Top 3?? I can't even give this a serious response I don't know about top 3 but you honestly don't think Watkins won't be really, really good if he had Big Ben, Ryan, or hell even Eli throwing to him instead of Tyrod and EJ for his whole career? Receiver is a dependent position. Watkins is a top 5 type talent at wr who struggles to stay healthy and plays in a terrible place for WRs. Edited April 14, 2017 by C.Biscuit97
TheElectricCompany Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 (edited) I don't know about top 3 but you honestly don't think Watkins won't be really, really good if he had Big Ben, Ryan, or hell even Eli throwing to him instead of Tyrod and EJ for his whole career? Receiver is a dependent position. Watkins is a top 5 type talent at wr who struggles to stay healthy and plays in a terrible place for WRs. I think a smart coach should always be looking for new ways to get their playmakers the ball. I do think it's reasonable that Watkins could put up more numbers in a wide open passing attack with a proven QB, but that's also a scenario that we can never test in real time. It's a "hypothesis contrary to fact" fallacy that only exists in la-la-land. Here's my issue with this as well. Are you improving the situations of other WRs around the league? You can't only improve Sammy's, keep everyone elses the same, and then use that as justification for why he's better than many of them. OBJ would be way more effective if Eli didn't toss all those picks. Demaryius Thomas would have produced more in 2015 and 2016 if he didn't have garbage QB play and a lingering hip injury. TY Hilton would have produced more if Andrew Luck played all 16 games in 2015 and 2016. If Russel Wilson was a traditional QB, I bet Doug Baldwin would be better. Brandin Cooks had issues getting playing time and targets all year. AJ Green had some injury issues and QB play has been troublesome for years. I could go on and on... Edited April 14, 2017 by TheElectricCompany
thebandit27 Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 I think a smart coach should always be looking for new ways to get their playmakers the ball. I do think it's reasonable that Watkins could put up more numbers in a wide open passing attack with a proven QB, but that's also a scenario that we can never test in real time. It's a "hypothesis contrary to fact" fallacy that only exists in la-la-land. Here's my issue with this as well. Are you improving the situations of other WRs around the league? You can't only improve Sammy's, keep everyone elses the same, and then use that as justification for why he's better than many of them. OBJ would be way more effective if Eli didn't toss all those picks. Demaryius Thomas would have produced more in 2015 and 2016 if he didn't have garbage QB play and a lingering hip injury. TY Hilton would have produced more if Andrew Luck played all 16 games in 2015 and 2016. If Russel Wilson was a traditional QB, I bet Doug Baldwin would be better. Brandin Cooks had issues getting playing time and targets all year. AJ Green had some injury issues and QB play has been troublesome for years. I could go on and on... The problem with your second paragraph is that the other WRs that you mention are starting from a baseline that consistently provides more opportunities thanks to a higher percentage of pass plays being called. I think Biscuit is talking more about getting Sammy to that baseline
C.Biscuit97 Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 I think a smart coach should always be looking for new ways to get their playmakers the ball. I do think it's reasonable that Watkins could put up more numbers in a wide open passing attack with a proven QB, but that's also a scenario that we can never test in real time. It's a "hypothesis contrary to fact" fallacy that only exists in la-la-land. Here's my issue with this as well. Are you improving the situations of other WRs around the league? You can't only improve Sammy's, keep everyone elses the same, and then use that as justification for why he's better than many of them. OBJ would be way more effective if Eli didn't toss all those picks. Demaryius Thomas would have produced more in 2015 and 2016 if he didn't have garbage QB play and a lingering hip injury. TY Hilton would have produced more if Andrew Luck played all 16 games in 2015 and 2016. If Russel Wilson was a traditional QB, I bet Doug Baldwin would be better. Brandin Cooks had issues getting playing time and targets all year. AJ Green had some injury issues and QB play has been troublesome for years. I could go on and on... The reason ELi throws picks is because he is constantly throwing he ball up to his WRs to let them make plays. If they switched teams, there is not a doubt on my mind who the better player is. In fact, OBJ would have gone TO on our qbs and probably would be on the trade block. Sammy was a wr prospect on the lines of AJ Green and slightly lower than Julio. This is not debatable. He is extremely polished and a game changer when healthy. Personally, I wanted Mike Evans but he's the only wr who was in the conversation for being the best in Sammy's class. No receiver is going to thrive on a team that throws the ball aa much as we do with a qb that can't throw certain routes. Sammy is one of the few legit blue chip players and would be scooped up in a second if he hit the open market.
Bill from NYC Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 (edited) What do you folks think he would be worth in a trade if we signed him? I am not saying that I am 100% for a trade. Now, would I consider one for a very nice offer? Yes, absolutely. Edited April 14, 2017 by Bill from NYC
TheElectricCompany Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 (edited) The problem with your second paragraph is that the other WRs that you mention are starting from a baseline that consistently provides more opportunities thanks to a higher percentage of pass plays being called. I think Biscuit is talking more about getting Sammy to that baseline This is a by-product of our run priorities, but in theory, this should lead to defenses playing us close to the LOS and lead to tremendous opportunities for play action downfield. In these situations, I would argue that Sammy's quality of opportunities are much higher than what many WRs are used to. Ex. Denver had a terrible time running the football the last two years (combined with poor QB play), and I do think this allowed defenses to put additional help towards DT and Sanders, which has impacted their TDs, big plays and lowered their YPCs. Edited April 14, 2017 by TheElectricCompany
C.Biscuit97 Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 What do you folks think he would be worth in a trade if we signed him? I am not saying that I am 100% for a trade. Now, would I consider one for a very nice offer? Yes, absolutely. His Heath would be the only reason we couldn't get a 1st for him. Teams around the league think our passing game is a joke and Sammy is being wasted here and is only 23.
BobChalmers Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 What's there to decide? Pick it up...easily a top-10 (if not top-5) WR when healthy. Let's see is he has one healthy season first?
Kirby Jackson Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 His Heath would be the only reason we couldn't get a 1st for him. Teams around the league think our passing game is a joke and Sammy is being wasted here and is only 23.Brandin Cooks got a 1st. I'd be stunned if Sammy didn't bring that back. I am totally against trading him but KC would make that deal yesterday.
TheElectricCompany Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 (edited) The reason ELi throws picks is because he is constantly throwing he ball up to his WRs to let them make plays. If they switched teams, there is not a doubt on my mind who the better player is. In fact, OBJ would have gone TO on our qbs and probably would be on the trade block. Sammy was a wr prospect on the lines of AJ Green and slightly lower than Julio. This is not debatable. He is extremely polished and a game changer when healthy. Personally, I wanted Mike Evans but he's the only wr who was in the conversation for being the best in Sammy's class. No receiver is going to thrive on a team that throws the ball aa much as we do with a qb that can't throw certain routes. Sammy is one of the few legit blue chip players and would be scooped up in a second if he hit the open market. OBJ has outproduced every NFL receiver in history in his first three seasons, but sure, go ahead believing that Sammy would be in that class if the tables were turned. I'd love those rose colored glasses, but here we go again with these la-la-land projections. Now, moving on, yes, Sammy was certainly a top tier prospect, but that really doesn't matter much after the draft card is turned in. Of course he'd be picked up immediately, he's certainly talented, but we are talking about him being a top tier player, and the hype just doesn't match the production yet. Edited April 14, 2017 by TheElectricCompany
Bill from NYC Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 His Heath would be the only reason we couldn't get a 1st for him. Teams around the league think our passing game is a joke and Sammy is being wasted here and is only 23.If you are correct, I view it as proof that he was a horrible draft pick. I will never understand those who defend Whaley. Btw CB, would you take a middle to late 1st round pick for him?
C.Biscuit97 Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 If you are correct, I view it as proof that he was a horrible draft pick. I will never understand those who defend Whaley. Btw CB, would you take a middle to late 1st round pick for him? I like Whaley more than you do but it's hard to argue that trading up for a wr is a bad trade (the only good things is Cleveland made awful draft picks is it doesn't hurt as bad). Honestly, I pick up his option and let this year play out. That trade is a sunken cost and I do believe we have a top 5 wr on our team. I don't think Tyrod is the answer but a young qb would love to come here with Sammy and hopefully a guy like OJ Howard. JMO. OBJ has outproduced every NFL receiver in history in his first three seasons, but sure, go ahead believing that Sammy would be in that class if the tables were turned. I'd love those rose colored glasses, but here we go again with these la-la-land projections. Now, moving on, yes, Sammy was certainly a top tier prospect, but that really doesn't matter much after the draft card is turned in. Of course he'd be picked up immediately, he's certainly talented, but we are talking about him being a top tier player, and the hype just doesn't match the production yet. I don't disagree with any of this. It's why I hate the idea of drafting another receiver at 10. How a wr produces is not totally all about the talent of the receiver. I believe Sammy has top 5 ability and it would be stupid to give up on that. But no, he hasn't consistently shown that but I don't think it's entirely his fault. I've posed this before but if the Bills draft Mike Williams or Davis at 10 & the Packers or Saints draft a guy like Josh Reyonlds in the 4th, would you bet on the higher drafted guy having the better career? I wouldn't. But I also believe you need blue chip players to win and Sammy is one of the few blue chip players we have. You don't get rid of them unless you have a great reason to.
thebandit27 Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 Let's see is he has one healthy season first? If you are referring to a season where he starts all 16 games, check; did it his rookie year If you mean a season where he has no health issues whatsoever, forget it; it doesn't happen in the NFL.
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