Pbomb Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 (edited) Cant believe some people voted no. Lets let sammy go a year early, that will really help our wr core. A good player gets hurt and some people want to run them out of town If you hate him that much atleast pickup the option and try to trade him, im sure there are alot of teams out there that wouldnt mind having him Edited April 14, 2017 by Pbomb
PlayoffsPlease Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 It is a business decision. Not a football decision. His option is 13 million, and it is guaranteed even if he is injured. If they don't exercise the option, they can franchise him for around 16 million. A 3 million loss if he is healthy vs. a 13 million loss if he is injured.
Bill_with_it Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 It is a business decision. Not a football decision. His option is 13 million, and it is guaranteed even if he is injured. If they don't exercise the option, they can franchise him for around 16 million. A 3 million loss if he is healthy vs. a 13 million loss if he is injured. Agreed see if he can manage some semblence of a complete season before committing 13 mil to him. If he can manage a complete season franchise him and negotiate a full contract before the franchise tag kicks in. Its pretty simple, keep emotions out and let a good buisness decision prevail.
thebandit27 Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 When did Sammy complete four season as an nfl wr. He was a rookie in 2014. Ab was available for 53 games his first year. In 2012 he missed 4 games due to injury.so your not painting the complete picture. Although he only started 27 games he had 3630. Jj played in 48 games his first four years amassing 4424 ap yards and 28 tds. Ill be sure to revisit this topic st the end of this season. I cant put Sammy in an elite status when he hasnt shown he has the capability of being elite. 4 was a typo (it was early )...supposed to say 3 Sammy has played in 37 games through 3 seasons Brown played in 38 games through 3 seasons Julio played in 34 games through 3 seasons As for status, I wouldn't put Sammy in elite yet precisely because of availability; I add the caveat that when he's on the field and targeted, he produces right alongside the elite of the NFL. I found the 2 articles below to be quite useful for contextual purposes: http://www.footballperspective.com/guest-post-adam-harstad-on-sammy-watkins/ http://nysportsbiz.com/2016/01/04/sammy-watkins-arguably-nfls-top-wr-2nd-half-season/ Agreed see if he can manage some semblence of a complete season before committing 13 mil to him. If he can manage a complete season franchise him and negotiate a full contract before the franchise tag kicks in. Its pretty simple, keep emotions out and let a good buisness decision prevail. A better business decision, IMO, is to pick up the option, which doesn't become fully-guaranteed until the new league year. That way, you (a) have time to evaluate his ongoing availability without being locked in to paying a lot of gtd money, (b) have the opportunity to sign him to an extension while he's still under contract, and © save a bit of money against the tag.
Bill_with_it Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 4 was a typo (it was early )...supposed to say 3 Sammy has played in 37 games through 3 seasons Brown played in 38 games through 3 seasons Julio played in 34 games through 3 seasons As for status, I wouldn't put Sammy in elite yet precisely because of availability; I add the caveat that when he's on the field and targeted, he produces right alongside the elite of the NFL. I found the 2 articles below to be quite useful for contextual purposes: http://www.footballperspective.com/guest-post-adam-harstad-on-sammy-watkins/ http://nysportsbiz.com/2016/01/04/sammy-watkins-arguably-nfls-top-wr-2nd-half-season/ A better business decision, IMO, is to pick up the option, which doesn't become fully-guaranteed until the new league year. That way, you (a) have time to evaluate his ongoing availability without being locked in to paying a lot of gtd money, (b) have the opportunity to sign him to an extension while he's still under contract, and © save a bit of money against the tag. The money is guaranteed against injury. Its not a better buisness decision you save appx 3 mil if Sammy can stay healthy (something he has shown to have difficulty at). Its far more likely that saving 3 mil gets spent on some wr to fill his position this when hes injured while we are also paying him 13 mil which would likely exceed the franchise tag. The franchise tag isnt guaranteed against injury. Sammy watkins has shown me nothing to place him with the likes of the highest rated wrs in the league. He had a fine half season of foitball in 2015. But prior to that he was asnt tops or near tops in anything of substance. History is riddled with examples of wrs breaking out for a year and then falling back down to earth. Make Sammy earn it before paying him.
teef Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 yup. i think you have to. The Bills plan to use him stinks and Sammy has yet to become a dominant player. you still don't cast him aside because of this.
YoloinOhio Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 (edited) Since when does a player have to be dominant/"elite"/injury free to warrant picking up his option? I'm pretty surprised at this discussion. This team finally has a real #1 WR and some people can't wait to move on even though he's only 23. Good luck finding someone better in the draft or attracting one better to come here in FA. They will pick up the option and try to sign him long term, will tag him if needed. The money is not prohibitive, it's what #1 WRs make. Imo Edited April 14, 2017 by YoloinOhio
Kirby Jackson Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 Since when does a player have to be dominant/"elite"/injury free to warrant picking up his option? I'm pretty surprised at this discussion. This team finally has a real #1 WR and some people can't wait to move on even though he's only 23. Good luck finding someone better in the draft or attracting one better to come here in FA. They will pick up the option and try to sign him long term, will tag him if needed. The money is not prohibitive, it's what #1 WRs make. ImoYeah, this conversation is really stupid. The Bills can't be that dumb. Pick up the option and thrown him the football more than 6.5 times a game.
Bill_with_it Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 Since when does a player have to be dominant/"elite"/injury free to warrant picking up his option? I'm pretty surprised at this discussion. This team finally has a real #1 WR and some people can't wait to move on even though he's only 23. Good luck finding someone better in the draft or attracting one better to come here in FA. They will pick up the option and try to sign him long term, will tag him if needed. The money is not prohibitive, it's what #1 WRs make. ImoIt would cost 13 mil guaranteed for watkins at least for the option.If sammy misses time he gets paid. If Sammy misses time we likely have to get another wr vosting more money. We could easily franchise tag him if he shows he is more valuable production this year than last year. Production warrants paydays. Its a buisness. Last year Sammys production was below that of Robert Woods. If the talent isnt on the field and on the trainers table it doesnt matter how talenred the player is.
CodeMonkey Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 (edited) What's there to decide? Pick it up...easily a top-10 (if not top-5) WR when healthy. That's the key. He is certainly has not been a top 10 even receiver, particularly last year for that reason. And he is coming to camp recovering from yet another off season surgery. Depending upon the contract numbers, who they think they can get in the draft, free agency, and how much a top receiver is worth with the current QB situation, it may or may not make sense to pick it up. However, it is a no brainer that the Bills will pick it up because if they do not, the trade up for him looks even worse than it does already. Edited April 14, 2017 by CodeMonkey
thebandit27 Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 The money is guaranteed against injury. Its not a better buisness decision you save appx 3 mil if Sammy can stay healthy (something he has shown to have difficulty at). Its far more likely that saving 3 mil gets spent on some wr to fill his position this when hes injured while we are also paying him 13 mil which would likely exceed the franchise tag. The franchise tag isnt guaranteed against injury. Sammy watkins has shown me nothing to place him with the likes of the highest rated wrs in the league. He had a fine half season of foitball in 2015. But prior to that he was asnt tops or near tops in anything of substance. History is riddled with examples of wrs breaking out for a year and then falling back down to earth. Make Sammy earn it before paying him. First, the franchise tag is fully guaranteed at the moment of signing. As for Sammy, as I said earlier in the thread, he lead the entire NFL in yards/target over his first 2 seasons in the league (cumulative). I've said many times here that the number one predictor of WR success is targets, and Sammy plays in an offense that happens to have attempted the fewest passes in the NFL for 2 consecutive years. That he has managed to produce as he has is actually quite remarkable. Take the entire 2015 season as an example: Amari Cooper--who many would consider a top-10 NFL WR--made the pro bowl, whereas Watkins did not. Cooper had 72 receptions and 1,070 yards with 6 TDs on 130 targets in 16 games. Watkins had 60 receptions on 95 targets and 1,047 yards with 9 TDs in 13 games, Compare that, for example, to another pro bowler (and likely consensus top-10 NFL WR) Jarvis Landry's 2015 season. He had 94 receptions on 165 targets and 1,157 yards with 4 TDs in 16 games. In other words, Sammy is equaling (or, it can be argued, out-producing) these guys despite being given far, far fewer opportunities. I maintain that his only issue is availability. That's the key. He is certainly has not been a top 10 even receiver, particularly last year for that reason. Depending upon the contract numbers and who they think they can get in the draft and free agency it may or may not make sense to pick it up. However, it is a no brainer that the Bills will pick it up because if they do not, the trade up for him looks even worse than it does already. Forget the trade-up, the guy started 29 of 32 games for his first 2 seasons and was outstanding when actually utilized like a No. 1 WR...that's why you pick up the option.
YoloinOhio Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 (edited) It would cost 13 mil guaranteed for watkins at least for the option. If sammy misses time he gets paid. If Sammy misses time we likely have to get another wr vosting more money. We could easily franchise tag him if he shows he is more valuable production this year than last year. Production warrants paydays. Its a buisness. Last year Sammys production was below that of Robert Woods. If the talent isnt on the field and on the trainers table it doesnt matter how talenred the player is. they have more than enough cap space to pay him. Pretty sure they've been factoring it in all along. Edited April 14, 2017 by YoloinOhio
Bill_with_it Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 (edited) First, the franchise tag is fully guaranteed at the moment of signing. As for Sammy, as I said earlier in the thread, he lead the entire NFL in yards/target over his first 2 seasons in the league (cumulative). I've said many times here that the number one predictor of WR success is targets, and Sammy plays in an offense that happens to have attempted the fewest passes in the NFL for 2 consecutive years. That he has managed to produce as he has is actually quite remarkable. Take the entire 2015 season as an example: Amari Cooper--who many would consider a top-10 NFL WR--made the pro bowl, whereas Watkins did not. Cooper had 72 receptions and 1,070 yards with 6 TDs on 130 targets in 16 games. Watkins had 60 receptions on 95 targets and 1,047 yards with 9 TDs in 13 games, Compare that, for example, to another pro bowler (and likely consensus top-10 NFL WR) Jarvis Landry's 2015 season. He had 94 receptions on 165 targets and 1,157 yards with 4 TDs in 16 games. In other words, Sammy is equaling (or, it can be argued, out-producing) these guys despite being given far, far fewer opportunities. I maintain that his only issue is availability. Forget the trade-up, the guy started 29 of 32 games for his first 2 seasons and was outstanding when actually utilized like a No. 1 WR...that's why you pick up the option. Stop spreading rampant wrong informationNo the franchise tag isnt fully guaranteed: 5. Franchise tender is guaranteed, with one exception. Once a player signs the franchise tag, the one-year salary becomes fully guaranteed. But theres a little-known exception. Under Article 10, Section 2© of the CBA, the contract can be terminated if the player fails to establish or maintain his excellent physical condition. TD mike is picking up a ton of yards per carry are we gonna sign him to what would almost equate to top ten pay because he is geeting hefty yards per touch? No that's ludicrous as is the notion to put Watkins in the same stratosphere as elite wrs. Edited April 14, 2017 by Bill_with_it
CodeMonkey Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 (edited) Forget the trade-up, the guy started 29 of 32 games for his first 2 seasons and was outstanding when actually utilized like a No. 1 WR...that's why you pick up the option. Which is also one of the considerations, can they use him in that way with the current QB situation and given the fact that they may well be a run first team again. I'm not saying they shouldn't pick it up, just saying it might not be such a "no brainer" except for the trade up consideration. Edited April 14, 2017 by CodeMonkey
dave mcbride Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 It feels like a no-brainer to keep him, but I have one caveat: no one really knows how chronic his foot problem is going to be. If it's going to be a semi-permanent issue for him, then he's going to struggle to stay on the field. If he is essentially fixed now, then you keep him. Anyone who tells you that they know the status of his foot is lying.
bisonbrigade Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 I would say to let Watkins walk, but half the time Watkins cannot even do that. LOL. Best player on IR.
Pbomb Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 First, the franchise tag is fully guaranteed at the moment of signing. As for Sammy, as I said earlier in the thread, he lead the entire NFL in yards/target over his first 2 seasons in the league (cumulative). I've said many times here that the number one predictor of WR success is targets, and Sammy plays in an offense that happens to have attempted the fewest passes in the NFL for 2 consecutive years. That he has managed to produce as he has is actually quite remarkable. Take the entire 2015 season as an example: Amari Cooper--who many would consider a top-10 NFL WR--made the pro bowl, whereas Watkins did not. Cooper had 72 receptions and 1,070 yards with 6 TDs on 130 targets in 16 games. Watkins had 60 receptions on 95 targets and 1,047 yards with 9 TDs in 13 games, Compare that, for example, to another pro bowler (and likely consensus top-10 NFL WR) Jarvis Landry's 2015 season. He had 94 receptions on 165 targets and 1,157 yards with 4 TDs in 16 games. In other words, Sammy is equaling (or, it can be argued, out-producing) these guys despite being given far, far fewer opportunities. I maintain that his only issue is availability. Forget the trade-up, the guy started 29 of 32 games for his first 2 seasons and was outstanding when actually utilized like a No. 1 WR...that's why you pick up the option. why even bother try to explain it. you can use stats, commonsense, reality, it doesnt matter. Some people just wanna hate on our best players and get rid of them for some reason Stop spreading rampant wrong information No the franchise tag isnt fully guaranteed: 5. Franchise tender is guaranteed, with one exception. Once a player signs the franchise tag, the one-year salary becomes fully guaranteed. But theres a little-known exception.Under Article 10, Section 2© of the CBA, the contract can be terminated if the player fails to establish or maintain his excellent physical condition. TD mike is picking up a ton of yards per carry are we gonna sign him to what would almost equate to top ten pay because he is geeting hefty yards per touch? No that's ludicrous as is the notion to put Watkins in the same stratosphere as elite wrs. are you comparing td mike to watkins?
dave mcbride Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 Stop spreading rampant wrong information No the franchise tag isnt fully guaranteed: 5. Franchise tender is guaranteed, with one exception. Once a player signs the franchise tag, the one-year salary becomes fully guaranteed. But theres a little-known exception.Under Article 10, Section 2© of the CBA, the contract can be terminated if the player fails to establish or maintain his excellent physical condition. TD mike is picking up a ton of yards per carry are we gonna sign him to what would almost equate to top ten pay because he is geeting hefty yards per touch? No that's ludicrous as is the notion to put Watkins in the same stratosphere as elite wrs. Do you watch the games in which he is healthy? Man.
TheElectricCompany Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 (edited) Yards per target is suddenly the new metric for NFL WRs? News to me. I love isolated performance stats that contradict the entire body of work. I think they'll pick up the option, as they should. Edited April 14, 2017 by TheElectricCompany
dave mcbride Posted April 14, 2017 Posted April 14, 2017 Yards per target is suddenly the new metric for NFL WRs? News to me. I love isolated performance stats that contradict the entire body of work. I think they'll pick up the option, as they should. ? - How does that contradict the entire body of work? Watkins had over 2K receiving yds in his first two seasons, which was a lot more than Andre Reed, Lee Evans, and especially Eric Moulds.
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