BillsFan4 Posted April 9, 2017 Posted April 9, 2017 If I trade for Wentz today what the Eagles gave up is irrelevant. I pay what I want and don't care if they overpaid. Trading for Wentz today isn't a realistic scenario. Philly isn't giving him up for a 1st. So it doesn't matter if that's what you want to pay. I am looking at the actual scenario it took to get Wentz, vs what it actually took to get Tyrod. Like I said, I think you have to take the cost of Wentz into account, because it is a huge factor in his worth.
mannc Posted April 9, 2017 Posted April 9, 2017 IMO you absolutely have to factor in the cost it took to get Wentz. Eagles gave up two top 12 1st round draft picks, plus the 2nd, 3rd and 4th, plus the cost to move up in the 1st round last year with Miami. Wentz has a very long way to go to ever be worth everything given up to get him. I get what you're saying, but the cost to get Wentz is a very real factor. Do you also factor in the first that the Eagles got from Minn for Bradford? At any rate, I think the verdict on Wentz is still highly uncertain. He did not look good the second half of the season. If we were just talking about the 2017 season, i would definitely take Tyrod over Wentz.
BillsFan4 Posted April 9, 2017 Posted April 9, 2017 Do you also factor in the first that the Eagles got from Minn for Bradford? At any rate, I think the verdict on Wentz is still highly uncertain. He did not look good the second half of the season. If we were just talking about the 2017 season, i would definitely take Tyrod over Wentz. If I could just pick one to be the Bills QB into the future - Wentz or Tyrod, I absolute pick Wentz. But when looking at the actual cost it took to get Wentz, there's no way I give up all that for him. Trade up's to the top of the draft for QBs have historically almost never worked out for the team trading up. Also, good point in the 1st acquired for Bradford. That could be looked at as a factor. But then do you take into account the cost it took to get Bradford in the first place?
BarleyNY Posted April 9, 2017 Posted April 9, 2017 Wentz tailed off badly as the season went on...... It didn't take long for NFL DCs to figure him out. 5 or 6 games. Now is when he needs to grow and adjust. I don't think he can though. Based on no NFL team would rather have Tyrod than Carson Wentz. But that is because Wentz still has potential for upside whereas Tyrod is viewed as a known commodity. Wentz also looks more, shall we say, prototypical. I don't see Tyrod as more than a good bridge QB, but he outperformed Wentz last season, especially after the first six weeks.
John from Riverside Posted April 9, 2017 Posted April 9, 2017 (edited) John, you're absolutely right, but wasting your time. If you look at the numbers, TT has better numbers than Jameis Winston the last two years, but it's ignored. They have about the same number of NFL starts, too. How do you know that? that dreaded "P" word for potential Does Wentz have a long career ahead of him to have a chance to improve....yes he does Did he outlay Tyrod Taylor as a whole this past season? No he did not Edited April 9, 2017 by John from Hemet
Rocky Landing Posted April 9, 2017 Posted April 9, 2017 If I had to make a prediction, I would guess that we will take a QB in round #5 --whoever is the best left on the board.
Big Hurt Posted April 9, 2017 Posted April 9, 2017 my opinion: if no QB is taken by #9 it really comes down to our scouts/GM getting first crack at guessing who the franchise QB is from the group. I am confident that one exists in this batch, and it is up to us to FINALLY guess right. If you do, playoff drought ends. If you guess wrong? Well, that is when the owners need to decide if you are a right fit for the job or not. Getting "first dibs" on guessing (all drafts are a guess) who the franchise guy is at the QB position is very rare and usually up to the team who holds the #1 pick. Even at 10, if no QB is taken, then theoretically itʻs as if we are a team who needs a QB and has the first pick in the draft. Even if you are on the "wait until next years draft, there are better QBʻs" you are still going to be guessing at which one is better and most likely wonʻt get the first crack at taking the guy you feel is best. With that said, we all have our guesses on who the franchise guy could be and the logic is usually based on the following: Go with the guy who wins big games, and has proved it on the big stage = Deshaun Watson Go with the guy who passes the eye test and seems like the safest bet = Mitch Trubisky Go with the guy who seems to have that "it" factor aka the wild card = Pat Mahomes I am fine with either because I see the positive in all three options. However if my job was on the line? I go with the guy whom I watched square up against an Alabama defense that was filled with first round prospects and win a national title doing so. I have him sit a year behind Tyrod and watch a QB with similar skills run an offense and learn. If we have a winning season next year then good for us, and good for Deshaun as he can continue to learn. If the wheels start falling off towards the end of the season I slowly plug in Watson at QB and cut ties with Tyrod at the end of the year. Next years first round pick can now be used to move our new team forward with our new QB. Sir, I understand your logic but your opinion is exactly why I don't what to see Watson get drafted by the Bills because like you said, drafting Watson means the Bills will not draft a QB in 2018, which has been said to be one of the strongest QB draft class. For me this is devastating to a team that has no decent QB for that many years.
GunnerBill Posted April 9, 2017 Posted April 9, 2017 If I trade for Wentz today what the Eagles gave up is irrelevant. I pay what I want and don't care if they overpaid. I don't. I am still not sold on him. But that is because Wentz still has potential for upside whereas Tyrod is viewed as a known commodity. Wentz also looks more, shall we say, prototypical. I don't see Tyrod as more than a good bridge QB, but he outperformed Wentz last season, especially after the first six weeks. This.
Kirby Jackson Posted April 9, 2017 Posted April 9, 2017 That's not the right question. The Eagles investment is a sunk cost. How much could Wentz get? Minimum a 1st rounder? Tyrod? Maybe a 3rd or 4th rounder. I doubt even a 2nd. But Bradford got a 1st last year and Alex Smith got 2 seconds.... What you are saying is just not true. Houston would give you 25 yesterday for TT.
JohnC Posted April 9, 2017 Posted April 9, 2017 But Bradford got a 1st last year and Alex Smith got 2 seconds.... What you are saying is just not true. Houston would give you 25 yesterday for TT. I don't see O'Brien giving up a first round for TT under any circumstances. That is not to say that he wouldn't want him at a lesser price as a temporary option at qb. O'Brien is one of the most demanding coaches any qb can play for. A qb who struggles at making reads, throwing accurately and make anticipatory throws is not going to be warmly embraced by such a tough taskmaster. Ask Osweiller how tolerant of a coach the volatile Irish coach was with his limitations? I'm not suggesting that TT is a disaster as a qb because he is not. The Bills are fortunate to have him as a qb because the position has previously been filled by bottom of the barrel impostors. What it comes down to is that being an adequate qb is not good enough for a team wanting to be a contending team. Until that issue is addressed and the position is upgraded mediocrity is going to be part of the franchise's identity.
jeffismagic Posted April 9, 2017 Posted April 9, 2017 But Bradford got a 1st last year and Alex Smith got 2 seconds.... What you are saying is just not true. Houston would give you 25 yesterday for TT. They would? Absolutely disagree.
PolishDave Posted April 9, 2017 Posted April 9, 2017 I vote no. I would trade down and I still wouldn't take a QB this year even after doing that. Hope Watson ends up on the Jets. He is going to be an interception factory in the NFL. Perfect that he should follow in Fitzy's footsteps.
starrymessenger Posted April 9, 2017 Posted April 9, 2017 I vote no. I would trade down and I still wouldn't take a QB this year even after doing that. Hope Watson ends up on the Jets. He is going to be an interception factory in the NFL. Perfect that he should follow in Fitzy's footsteps. Absolutely agree on Watson. I love his competitive spirit and he is a great college QB. I just dont see any reliable and consistent indication of the passer instincts and accuracy needed indispensibly for success at the next level. He may wind up a marginal uptick to Tyrod, and maybe not. Chad Kelly is a more promising passer for development and he might even go undrafted. My fear is that Whaley may jump if Watson is there at 10 and repeat his EJ fiasco. Why? Because Doug just doesnt know QBs. Hopefully if he starts running to the podium somebody will tackle him before he gets there. The only QB in this draft whose ceiling is franchise guy is MT In my (inexpert and humble) opinion. Small sample size and lots of risk, but he would not have to start right away. If you are going to roll the dice on a QB, he should be the guy. Of course all things considered maybe you shouldnt be looking at QB at all at 10. And MT could be off the board anyway.
GunnerBill Posted April 9, 2017 Posted April 9, 2017 But Bradford got a 1st last year and Alex Smith got 2 seconds.... What you are saying is just not true. Houston would give you 25 yesterday for TT. Depends how secure BOB really is. If he thinks that another 7 to 9 win season is enough to secure him then no way he would even consider trading next year's #1 for Tyrod (or for the 10th pick in this draft while we are at it). If he thinks he really HAS to make a genuine run at a Championship this season to be safe then I would think getting the best QB available would be attractive to him. With Romo out and if Tyrod was available (he's not) then he maybe would consider it.
rayray808 Posted April 10, 2017 Author Posted April 10, 2017 new head coach = new QB? http://www.outkickthecoverage.com/how-a-rookie-head-coach-derailed-a-rookie-quarterback-then-vanished-with-4-million-071515 The Bills last drafted a QB in the top 6 rounds back in 2007, when they took Trent Edwards in the 3rd round. After back to back 7-9 seasons, the team acquired Ryan Fitzpatrick, a 7th round selection from 2005 who bounced from the Rams to the Bengals. It was clear the Bills needed to upgrade their quarterback position after Fitzpatrick led them to a 6-10 record his first year and a 4-12 record the following year. But in 2011, they did not use the #3 overall pick on a quarterback, instead opting for Marcel Darius. Cam Newton was selected #1 overall, but after that, the following were available to the Bills: Andy Dalton, Colin Kaepernick, Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert and Christian Ponder among others. In 2012, they still refused to draft a quarterback, and at #10 overall they selected Stephon Gilmore. Taken #1 and #2 in that draft were Andrew Luck and Robert Griffin. Ryan Tannehill was taken #8. Available to the Bills would have been Russell Wilson, Nick Foles, Brock Osweiler and Brandon Weeden among others. All of those classes vastly exceeded the quarterback talent in 2013. The other QBs selected in the first 4 rounds included Geno Smith, Mike Glennon, Matt Barkley, Ryan Nassib, Tyler Wilson and Landry Jones. A terrible draft class. But the Bills waited until 2013 and selected the top prospect in their opinion.
Thurman#1 Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 Problem is EVERYBODY wants to trade back. Finding a team to do that is not going to be easy. Not all that difficult either. There were around 70 draft trades last year. Each of them involved at least one team that wanted to trade up. It didn't take long for NFL DCs to figure him out. 5 or 6 games. Now is when he needs to grow and adjust. I don't think he can though. But that is because Wentz still has potential for upside whereas Tyrod is viewed as a known commodity. Wentz also looks more, shall we say, prototypical. I don't see Tyrod as more than a good bridge QB, but he outperformed Wentz last season, especially after the first six weeks. Wentz finished strong, two really good games against NYG and Dallas. No way to be sure, of course, but I think he's going to be a good one. The Eagles couldn't put a good running game on the field and didn't exactly have great receivers for Wentz to throw to. Teams were able to shut the Eagles down, but a lot of it had to do with the pieces around him, IMHO.
BillsCelticsAngelsBama Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 If no QB in first nine Whaley will take Watson. If I'm the GM I would not be happy because that means the seven studs on defense are gone and we'd be forced to go WR or reach for QB or CB. Try and see if Ari. craves a QB and wants to move ahead of Cleveland. OR Philly wants to move up
BuffaloHokie13 Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 Not all that difficult either. There were around 70 draft trades last year. Each of them involved at least one team that wanted to trade up. Wentz finished strong, two really good games against NYG and Dallas. No way to be sure, of course, but I think he's going to be a good one. The Eagles couldn't put a good running game on the field and didn't exactly have great receivers for Wentz to throw to. Teams were able to shut the Eagles down, but a lot of it had to do with the pieces around him, IMHO. Those were really good games? 13/24 for 152, 6.3 YPA, a TD and a pick? 27/43 for 245, 5.7 YPA, and 2 TDs?
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