Do You BitCoin?

[Foxx]

19 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

I can transfer my Bitcoin into Etherand then use my Ether to buy crypto kitties.  The world's first blockchain pet.  And they're cute!

wtf! clogged up the damn whole network. transactions took forever if you used what should constitute a normal Gwei.

Edited December 6, 2017 by Foxx

[plenzmd1]

21 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

I can transfer my Bitcoin into Etherand then use my Ether to buy crypto kitties.  The world's first blockchain pet.  And they're cute!

I think that a euphemism for your digital dates..trying to guess which channel would fit...hmm

[PolishDave]

1 hour ago, Foxx said:

again, i don't mean to be insultive, but this is pure ignorance speaking. it looks smells and sticks to your shoe because .... what, 10 billion people say so, is that it?

 

come on... if you can't back something up, then chances are you probably shouldn't have said it in the first place.

 

Average Americans are never going to understand cryptocurrency.   They just won't.   It is way over their head.   And they simply won't spend the mental capital required to get a firm understanding of what they are dealing with.   Some people will never ever understand it.    Heck 99.5% of Americans don't even understand where money comes from in this country, who creates it, why it has value, etc..    They just blindly use American dollars to buy things because it is the norm.   

 

Most people are extremely resistant to change.

 

This is why cryptos are going to be slow to replace typical FIAT currency on a percentage scale.    You, nor I, nor anyone else is going to change that.   It will change more and more with new generations of people.   Just as things like racism slowly diminish with each new generation.

Edited December 7, 2017 by PolishDave

[plenzmd1]

13 hours ago, Jauronimo said:

No way!! Its going to be $14k in 5 minutes.  Its $13,992 right now. 

 

When we wake up it will be somewhere between $16k and $8.5k, but it will definitely NOT be $14k when we wake up.

$15.5..you were right!

[BeginnersMind]

Imagine if you took out a $2,000 worth of bitcoin loan earlier this year. You'd now owe $200,000+. 

 

We can't even discuss it without regard to governmental backed currency and right now. Continue to beware: It's wildly speculative.

 

Maybe it will keep rising nonstop.

[Guffalo]

For those keeping track, this is how long it has taken the cryptocurrency to cross the key psychological levels:

o    $0000 - $1000: 1789 days

o    $1000- $2000: 1271 days

o    $2000- $3000: 23 days

o    $3000- $4000: 62 days

o    $4000- $5000: 61 days

o    $5000- $6000: 8 days

o    $6000- $7000: 13 days

o    $7000- $8000: 14 days

o    $8000- $9000: 9 days

o    $9000-$10000: 2 days

o    $10000-$11000: 1 day

o    $11000-$12000: 6 days

o    $12,000-$13,000: 17 hours

o    $13,000-$14,000: 4 hours

o    $14,000-$15,000: 10 hours

With a market cap of around $250 billion, Bitcoin is bigger than Proctor & Gamble and approaching the size of Wal-Mart as the 12 biggest 'company' in the S&P 500.

 

[Jauronimo]

2 hours ago, plenzmd1 said:

$15.5..you were right!

Damn near $17 thousand now.

[Jauronimo]

$19 thousand and change came and went.  Of course many of the exchanges are down now.

[plenzmd1]

Interesting from Forbes, course I like it cause I am going short on Monday most likely.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/naeemaslam/2017/12/07/bitcoin-a-low-hanging-fruit/#41b202a95c93

 

Currently, higher prices benefit all players in the market, big or small. However, dragging Bitcoin into the futures market poses a risk of big players opening doors to short selling hell. Futures markets make it possible to short in decent size with a lot of liquidity, thus affecting the price discovery in the underlying asset market.

And, the fact that the Bitcoin contracts are cash settled, this equips these said players with a near- infinite supply of dollars to make profits on the other side of the market. This will open doors for quant aggressive traders, such as hedge funds and algorithm-driven funds, to use this futures market to enter Bitcoin trading with high levels of liquidity (in dollars, not the crypto currency itself) for aggressive short-selling and knock the prices really low. After all, futures market exists for hedging against risk, both upside and downside, and thus players now have an incentive to be on the short side and make profits hedging against the upside.

 

Second, I do see a potential dip just after the futures start trading, a correction of up to 20-30%, which may present a good medium to long term opportunity to enter the market and/or build on long positions. I do see Bitcoin prices potentially reaching $25,000 by early next year.

[Jauronimo]

The spread between exchanges is mind boggling while the exchanges crashing every time markets are active is maddening.  I wonder how this flurry of trading activity is even taking place while I'm locked out of my accounts.

 

If it didn't take 10 hours to move across exchanges, the arbitrage opportunities would be a license to print money.

[ExiledInIllinois]

How does Bitcoin protect against money laundering?

 

Maybe I phrased that wrong.  Could money laundering become a problem if gov'ts just stay hand's off?  Could it be financing terrorism?

[PolishDave]

6 hours ago, BeginnersMind said:

Imagine if you took out a $2,000 worth of bitcoin loan earlier this year. You'd now owe $200,000+. 

 

We can't even discuss it without regard to governmental backed currency and right now. Continue to beware: It's wildly speculative.

 

Maybe it will keep rising nonstop.

 

No you wouldn't.   What are you talking about?

 

If you took out a loan of $100 US Dollars you would owe back $100 US dollars.

 

If you took out a loan of 100 Mexican Pesos you would owe back 100 Mexican Pesos.

 

If you took a loan of 100 Bitcoin you would owe back 100 Bitcoin.   You wouldn't owe $200,000.     You sir, are very confused about how this stuff works.

[PolishDave]

1 hour ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

How does Bitcoin protect against money laundering?

 

Maybe I phrased that wrong.  Could money laundering become a problem if gov'ts just stay hand's off?  Could it be financing terrorism?

 

It can/could be used to hide money/commerce/transactions/investments.

 

Ransomware developers like to use Bitcoin to collect payments so as to make it really hard to track down where the money is being sent.    Following the money trail is how law enforcement typically finds these types of criminals.   Using Bitcoin makes it much harder to figure out who is doing it.   To find someone doing it though, I suspect it would take a huge investment of government resources.   And most of the time, the criminal would likely get away with it.   

 

Bitcoin cannot finance terrorism.   It is not an entity that can donate money to terrorists.  You worded that question wrong.

 

However, it can be used as a medium of exchange for anyone (including a terrorist or terrorist group) who wishes to hide some part of their transaction.      There are other cryptocurrencies better suited for such things though if the terrorists choose to use them.

 

I doubt too many terrorists are using it yet though.   More likely, they are still dealing in cash currencies that fit inside bags, boxes and briefcases.   If cryptos become widely accepted enough, then I think you will hear stories of them using certain ones like Monero to hide their financial tracks.

 

 

[BeginnersMind]

2 hours ago, PolishDave said:

 

No you wouldn't.   What are you talking about?

 

If you took out a loan of $100 US Dollars you would owe back $100 US dollars.

 

If you took out a loan of 100 Mexican Pesos you would owe back 100 Mexican Pesos.

 

If you took a loan of 100 Bitcoin you would owe back 100 Bitcoin.   You wouldn't owe $200,000.     You sir, are very confused about how this stuff works.

 

The way I phrased it is right. But of course since no one thinks of Bitcoins as anything but related to real currency, you're confused. 

 

Let's say it was Summer 2017 and you loaned me half a BTC. At that time, it would be a $2,000 loan as measured in USD, but because the currency we chose was BTC, I'd owe you back half a BTC sometime in the future, not $2000.

 

Fast forward 6 months. The loan is due. I owe you half a bitcoin plus interest. No problem if I have half a bitcoin on hand. But if I don't, I have to deposit $8,000 to buy half a BTC by today's exchange rate.

 

Oops. 

 

And you can flip the hypotehtical around too. Fast forward 6 months. The loan is due. I owe you half a bitcoin plus interest. BTC value is back to what it was not that long ago. $500 to 1 BTC...$250 to 0.5 BTC. So I give you the half a BTC in payment on my loan. Suhweet!

 

And that, my friends, is not a currency anyone serious about financials will touch until it's stable as a measure of value. Not a soul would tell you it's stable now and anyone accepting it as payment except for speculative ventures is loco. But as an investment, it will never go down. 

Edited December 7, 2017 by BeginnersMind

[Foxx]

27 minutes ago, BeginnersMind said:

 

The way I phrased it is right. But of course since no one thinks of Bitcoins as anything but related to real currency, you're confused. 

 

Let's say it was Summer 2017 and you loaned me half a BTC. At that time, it would be a $2,000 loan as measured in USD, but because the currency we chose was BTC, I'd owe you back half a BTC sometime in the future, not $2000.

 

Fast forward 6 months. The loan is due. I owe you half a bitcoin plus interest. No problem if I have half a bitcoin on hand. But if I don't, I have to deposit $8,000 to buy half a BTC by today's exchange rate.

 

Oops. 

 

And you can flip the hypotehtical around too. Fast forward 6 months. The loan is due. I owe you half a bitcoin plus interest. BTC value is back to what it was not that long ago. $500 to 1 BTC...$250 to 0.5 BTC. So I give you the half a BTC in payment on my loan. Suhweet!

 

And that, my friends, is not a currency anyone serious about financials will touch until it's stable as a measure of value. Not a soul would tell you it's stable now and anyone accepting it as payment except for speculative ventures is loco. But as an investment, it will never go down. 

where you are failing is thinking in terms of fiat. it is imprerative that the mindset changes to one of a crypto basis. once you understand that, you will understand how wrongheaded your thinking is.

 

 

4 hours ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

How does Bitcoin protect against money laundering?

 

Maybe I phrased that wrong.  Could money laundering become a problem if gov'ts just stay hand's off?  Could it be financing terrorism?

 

2 hours ago, PolishDave said:

 

It can/could be used to hide money/commerce/transactions/investments.

 

Ransomware developers like to use Bitcoin to collect payments so as to make it really hard to track down where the money is being sent.    Following the money trail is how law enforcement typically finds these types of criminals.   Using Bitcoin makes it much harder to figure out who is doing it.   To find someone doing it though, I suspect it would take a huge investment of government resources.   And most of the time, the criminal would likely get away with it.   

 

Bitcoin cannot finance terrorism.   It is not an entity that can donate money to terrorists.  You worded that question wrong.

 

However, it can be used as a medium of exchange for anyone (including a terrorist or terrorist group) who wishes to hide some part of their transaction.      There are other cryptocurrencies better suited for such things though if the terrorists choose to use them.

 

I doubt too many terrorists are using it yet though.   More likely, they are still dealing in cash currencies that fit inside bags, boxes and briefcases.   If cryptos become widely accepted enough, then I think you will hear stories of them using certain ones like Monero to hide their financial tracks.

 

 

right. guns kill people, right?  a tool is a tool, what is done with that tool is in the hands of the user. the Bitcoin blockchain is transparent. it is a public ledger that can be inspected and tracked by anyone who knows what they are doing.

 

there are private coins out there, where transactions can be seen, but they are gobblygook to anyone who tries to make any sense out of them. these most notably are CLOAK, XMR and ZEC. zSNARKS is a protocol that enables this privacy which will be implemented in some way on Ethereum when the Casper upgrade takes effect in the new year. Ethereum will also go to a PoS concept which means that it will no longer be PoW and mineable.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Foxx

[Jauronimo]

16 minutes ago, BeginnersMind said:

 

The way I phrased it is right. But of course since no one thinks of Bitcoins as anything but related to real currency, you're confused. 

 

Let's say it was Summer 2017 and you loaned me half a BTC. At that time, it would be a $2,000 loan as measured in USD, but because the currency we chose was BTC, I'd owe you back half a BTC sometime in the future, not $2000.

 

Fast forward 6 months. The loan is due. I owe you half a bitcoin plus interest. No problem if I have half a bitcoin on hand. But if I don't, I have to deposit $8,000 to buy half a BTC by today's exchange rate.

 

Oops. 

 

And you can flip the hypotehtical around too. Fast forward 6 months. The loan is due. I owe you half a bitcoin plus interest. BTC value is back to what it was not that long ago. $500 to 1 BTC...$250 to 0.5 BTC. So I give you the half a BTC in payment on my loan. Suhweet!

 

And that, my friends, is not a currency anyone serious about financials will touch until it's stable as a measure of value. Not a soul would tell you it's stable now and anyone accepting it as payment except for speculative ventures is loco. But as an investment, it will never go down. 

Correct. Which is why BTC no longer even claims to be a unit of exchange.  Its not realistic to use BTC for purchases or everyday commerce.  Now BTC claims to be a store of value which was never the original goal.  Bitcoin Cash or BCH, which forked from BTC, is now touting itself as the true Bitcoin ready to fulfill the dream of a unit of commerce.  I'm not sure how bigger blocks and kicking the can down the road on scalability solve all the issues associated with Bitcoin but I'm no expert. 

 

Both are still highly speculative and have realized tremendous increases in value over the past few months. 

 

 

[Foxx]

7 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Correct. Which is why BTC no longer even claims to be a unit of exchange.  Its not realistic to use BTC for purchases or everyday commerce.  Now BTC claims to be a store of value which was never the original goal.  Bitcoin Cash or BCH, which forked from BTC, is now touting itself as the true Bitcoin ready to fulfill the dream of a unit of commerce.  I'm not sure how bigger blocks and kicking the can down the road on scalability solve all the issues associated with Bitcoin but I'm no expert. 

 

Both are still highly speculative and have realized tremendous increases in value over the past few months. 

 

 

whoa boy. this is a deep end subject.

 

there was a real nasty war between Bitcoin (Core) and the Segwit guys. Core doesn't/didn't want Segwit2x and those that did will never be on the same page. basically... Segwit2X wanted to increase the size of the blocks (where all the information about transactions are contained) from 1 mb to 2 mbs. when the Segwit2x hard fork failed, the Segwit guys started moving their hashing power enmasse to BCH.

 

there is a real and not unimagined problem with the wide spread use of Bitcoin. the mempool gets backed up to the point of it taking hours and sometimes days to process a transaction. the average cost of a transaction in fiat terms is in the neighboorhood of $8. this is totally ridiculas. now when that mempool gets backed up, if you want your transaction to go through fast (say within an hour (i hear you saying, that's fast?)), you will need to up that transaction fee to at least double that. there is a whole lot more but this is the meat of it.

 

Bitcoin Cash forked and upped their blocksize to 8mb. this enables much faster transactions and much cheaper fees.

 

BTC will ultimately become the international settlement vehicle. that alone should give you a clue to what 1 BTC will command.

[Foxx]

Bank of America Wins Patent for Crypto Exchange System

[Foxx]

if your thinking of shorting Bitcoin (a fools errand), you might want to read the following article first.

 

Banks Issue Last Minute Warning About Risks Of Bitcoin Futures, Ask Regulator For Review

[PolishDave]

15 hours ago, BeginnersMind said:

 

The way I phrased it is right. But of course since no one thinks of Bitcoins as anything but related to real currency, you're confused. 

 

Let's say it was Summer 2017 and you loaned me half a BTC. At that time, it would be a $2,000 loan as measured in USD, but because the currency we chose was BTC, I'd owe you back half a BTC sometime in the future, not $2000.

 

Fast forward 6 months. The loan is due. I owe you half a bitcoin plus interest. No problem if I have half a bitcoin on hand. But if I don't, I have to deposit $8,000 to buy half a BTC by today's exchange rate.

 

Oops. 

 

And you can flip the hypotehtical around too. Fast forward 6 months. The loan is due. I owe you half a bitcoin plus interest. BTC value is back to what it was not that long ago. $500 to 1 BTC...$250 to 0.5 BTC. So I give you the half a BTC in payment on my loan. Suhweet!

 

And that, my friends, is not a currency anyone serious about financials will touch until it's stable as a measure of value. Not a soul would tell you it's stable now and anyone accepting it as payment except for speculative ventures is loco. But as an investment, it will never go down. 

 

Your scenario is complete nonsense dude.   If you can't understand that, then I can't help you.

 

When you go to a bank to borrow money, - say borrow $20,000 to buy a car, the bank won't let you pay it back in pesos or Euros or whatever.   It wants dollars back.

 

It is no different than any other currency in the situation you are describing.

 

Nobody would go borrow some other currency (whether Bitcoin or Pesos or Euros or whatever) for a loan intending to pay it back in some other currency.    Well, maybe you can find someone who does that.   But it isn't normal.

 

Your loan scenario is just not realistic.

 

As far as the fluctuation in the price of the currency goes, yes that is a major deterrent for people actually using it to conduct business.   The people who own Bitcoin now are hesitant to exchange it for anything because of the massive upward move in price. Price stability does matter if you want people to use it to conduct business as a part of their normal everyday life.    Instability is bad for Bitcoin and cryptos in general for convincing people to switch to them instead of using whatever currency they currently use.

 

The problem with cryptos is that the demand for them currently dwarfs the supply.   But the demand is currently been created by speculators - not by people wanting to use them as a form of currency.   And yes, that is bad for the short and intermediate term for the main idea behind cryptos.   It will scare away financially conservative minded people - which most people are I suspect.