mjt328 Posted March 29, 2017 Posted March 29, 2017 That's fine, and I agree with them, but they weren't taken in the top 10 which is where we are picking. And yes he had the talent, but playing for only a couple years is not what you want from a top 10 pick regardless of circumstance. Hence reasons why Jack dropped last draft The difference between picking Top 10 and picking 11-25 is not a good reason to pass up a prospect. With that said, I can't imagine a scenario in this draft where trading down 5-10 spots wouldn't be the Bills best scenario. This team has at least five glaring positional needs (Wide Receiver, Right Tackle, Linebacker, Cornerback, Safety) and a few spots that we need to seriously consider (Quarterback, Tight End). The talent level between Picks #5-25 is not large. And even if we miss out on someone like Mike Williams, OJ Howard or Reuben Foster at #10, we could still get someone like Corey Davis, Cam Thomas or Zach Cunningham later in the round. Plus pickup another early draft selection. For everyone complaining that Doug Whaley isn't fired yet... this draft (more than any class he has assembled so far) is going to really show where he stands as a GM. The Bills absolutely must kill this draft class. Not just in getting immediate contributions from its rookie class, but also in getting good value moving around the draft board. Pulling out 1-2 decent starters is not going to cut it.
BuffaloHokie13 Posted March 29, 2017 Posted March 29, 2017 The difference between picking Top 10 and picking 11-25 is not a good reason to pass up a prospect. With that said, I can't imagine a scenario in this draft where trading down 5-10 spots wouldn't be the Bills best scenario. This team has at least five glaring positional needs (Wide Receiver, Right Tackle, Linebacker, Cornerback, Safety) and a few spots that we need to seriously consider (Quarterback, Tight End). The talent level between Picks #5-25 is not large. And even if we miss out on someone like Mike Williams, OJ Howard or Reuben Foster at #10, we could still get someone like Corey Davis, Cam Thomas or Zach Cunningham later in the round. Plus pickup another early draft selection. For everyone complaining that Doug Whaley isn't fired yet... this draft (more than any class he has assembled so far) is going to really show where he stands as a GM. The Bills absolutely must kill this draft class. Not just in getting immediate contributions from its rookie class, but also in getting good value moving around the draft board. Pulling out 1-2 decent starters is not going to cut it. Agree to disagree on that point. There are usually 8 or so elite level talents in any given draft class, and then it falls off a bit. If a couple teams reach on QB or ignore prospects due to position one may still be available at 10.
Buddo Posted March 29, 2017 Posted March 29, 2017 While I wouldn't rule it out totally, schematically, it makes sense to be looking at DL, LB or Safety with the first pick, rather than CB. About the only reason to take a CB at #10, is to get an elite talent cheap for 5 years, because he won't get paid after that. In a draft that has plenty of DB depth (allegedly), you can wait for later rounds, to pick up perfectly good zone CBs. It's still possible that we might go Offense, but I think that comes down to how good they feel the WRs are at the top end of this draft. 'Grades' wise, I think they have to have some clear air between them and someone for the D. Tbh, I'm feeling somewhat more comfortable about the CB situation, with it being largely confirmed we will be going back to zone coverages. I think I'd like to see another vet added in FA, prior to the draft, but I believe we should be capable of filling holes there from the draft.
Saxum Posted March 29, 2017 Posted March 29, 2017 Maybe he gets injured... Just saying. I am hoping he gets a bad case of plantar fakeitis in preseason.
wilcoam Posted March 29, 2017 Posted March 29, 2017 I'm not so sure we would go safety with the first pick HC Sean just told everyone yesterday Hyde would start at safety, then you have Poyer Both signed starting $$ deals Personally neither have started much in the NFL at that position so I find it beyond scary And in fact on paper a talent drop from last year But we will see what happens on the field Then again HC Sean could have been smoke screening but if not we ain't going starting safety As either Poyer becomes a very expensive backup Or Hyde moves to nickel or starting C Now I get BPA, not drafting for need, and just 2017, but we signed Power and Hyde for beyond 2017 jc
Buffalo Barbarian Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2017/03/29/nfl-new-head-coaches-sean-mcvay-kyle-shanahan-sean-mcdermott-anthony-lynn-vance-joseph-doug-marrone It's an article analyzing what the six new head coaches do scheme-wise, based on Benoit's extensive film study. He then uses that to predict what those coaches might be likely to do in their first drafts. Here's the section on McDermott: "By deciding to let cornerback Stephon Gilmore walk in free agency, the longtime defensive assistant under the late Jim Johnson in Philadelphia and the highly respected Ron Rivera in Carolina has already told you how he views the game. Gilmore is a lanky, athletic man-to-man defender. Most defenses would kill for a corner like him. The Bills were one of those defenses under Rex Ryan, who preferred one-on-one coverage outside and overloaded pressure designs up front. But McDermott plays a lot more zone. On early downs, it’s eight in the box with a safety patrolling centerfield. On passing downs, it’s seven in the box, maybe with an inside blitz look, and two safeties back deep. This approach naturally protects corners; almost always, they have help from a safety over the top or from a linebacker underneath. And so instead of spending money on a pricey cornerback you can spend it on linebackers and pass rushers. McDermott’s old team, the Panthers, did exactly that by letting Josh Norman leave in free agency, signing Thomas Davis and Luke Kuechly to long-term contracts, and consistently selecting defensive linemen early in the draft. The Bills will follow this model. Almost any position in their front seven can be upgraded." The whole article is pretty good, but the Anthony Lynn and Doug Marrone sections also have some Bills relevance. That's why I put Solomon Thomas 1st in my mock, I have a sneaking suspicion McD loves him and will take him if he is there
indiragandhi'sthong Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 I would love to see teams try and matchup with OJ Howard and Clay ... then go WR in 2nd or 3rd but otherwise defense the rest of the way.
Thurman#1 Posted March 30, 2017 Author Posted March 30, 2017 Nope, but if you claim to be a lockdown man-on-man corner, why get burned by Hogan who isn't even a speedster? Is that the only time he has been burned? How many times has Gilmore made a play at the end of the game to help us win like othe corners have, including Sherm, Talib, or Patrick Peterson. Even Malcom Butler is more clutch than Gilmore imo and a better tackler. Safety help is help, nothing more nothing less. Hogan is absolutely a speedster. Guy ran a 4.39. The reason Belichick - a notorious skinflint - made Gilmore a top ten CB by pay is that he is a top ten CB. Our salary cap problems may have played into why we didn't bring Gilmore back, but Norman and Gilmore are a pattern and as Benoit points out probably indicate his draft tendencies and priorities. That's why I put Solomon Thomas 1st in my mock, I have a sneaking suspicion McD loves him and will take him if he is there Don't see him still being there, but yeah, that's the kind of move this would seem to mean is possible.
Thurman#1 Posted March 30, 2017 Author Posted March 30, 2017 (edited) That's fine, and I agree with them, but they weren't taken in the top 10 which is where we are picking. And yes he had the talent, but playing for only a couple years is not what you want from a top 10 pick regardless of circumstance. Hence reasons why Jack dropped last draft It's not what you want from a top ten prospect. But it absolutely does not mean he was a bad draft pick that he was killed in a home invasion. That makes exactly as much sense as it would make to say that the scouts should have known that a draft pick would get killed in a car accident or an earthquake. That could have happened to anyone, and Taylor was setting the tone on that ferocious defence. He was a good pick there. There aren't many safeties worth that. But there shouldn't be any question whatsoever that there haver been safeties good enough to have easily validated top ten picks. I'm sure you can come up with a list as easily as anyone else. And Jack dropped last year because he was injured and hadn't played in a while. That is not a reasonable comparison. Don't know whether we will pick a safety but probably two will go in the top ten, and I'm betting at least one will be a good bargain there. Edited March 30, 2017 by Thurman#1
Gugny Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2017/03/29/nfl-new-head-coaches-sean-mcvay-kyle-shanahan-sean-mcdermott-anthony-lynn-vance-joseph-doug-marrone It's an article analyzing what the six new head coaches do scheme-wise, based on Benoit's extensive film study. He then uses that to predict what those coaches might be likely to do in their first drafts. Here's the section on McDermott: "By deciding to let cornerback Stephon Gilmore walk in free agency, the longtime defensive assistant under the late Jim Johnson in Philadelphia and the highly respected Ron Rivera in Carolina has already told you how he views the game. Gilmore is a lanky, athletic man-to-man defender. Most defenses would kill for a corner like him. The Bills were one of those defenses under Rex Ryan, who preferred one-on-one coverage outside and overloaded pressure designs up front. But McDermott plays a lot more zone. On early downs, it’s eight in the box with a safety patrolling centerfield. On passing downs, it’s seven in the box, maybe with an inside blitz look, and two safeties back deep. This approach naturally protects corners; almost always, they have help from a safety over the top or from a linebacker underneath. And so instead of spending money on a pricey cornerback you can spend it on linebackers and pass rushers. McDermott’s old team, the Panthers, did exactly that by letting Josh Norman leave in free agency, signing Thomas Davis and Luke Kuechly to long-term contracts, and consistently selecting defensive linemen early in the draft. The Bills will follow this model. Almost any position in their front seven can be upgraded." The whole article is pretty good, but the Anthony Lynn and Doug Marrone sections also have some Bills relevance. Sez? r u kidding?
wppete Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 Gilmore was an average CB. No competitive spirit. Happy he is gone and dint spend that money on him.
Buffalo Barbarian Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 Hogan is absolutely a speedster. Guy ran a 4.39. The reason Belichick - a notorious skinflint - made Gilmore a top ten CB by pay is that he is a top ten CB. Our salary cap problems may have played into why we didn't bring Gilmore back, but Norman and Gilmore are a pattern and as Benoit points out probably indicate his draft tendencies and priorities. Don't see him still being there, but yeah, that's the kind of move this would seem to mean is possible. Maybe Johnathan Allen then. Gilmore was an average CB. No competitive spirit. Happy he is gone and dint spend that money on him. couldn't tackle either
GunnerBill Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 Gilmore was an average CB. No competitive spirit. Happy he is gone and dint spend that money on him. DC Tom Bot is overworked these days... but he has a message for you....
Buffalo Barbarian Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 (edited) DC Tom Bot is overworked these days... but he has a message for you.... I do think that with our Scheme that spending that kind of dough on Gilmore would have been a waste. Normally I think he would have been worth the investment even though he would rather be a turnstile when runners come by. Edited March 30, 2017 by Buffalo Barbarian
Thurman#1 Posted March 30, 2017 Author Posted March 30, 2017 Sez? r u kidding? There's a letter limit, dude.
Bray Wyatt Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 It's not what you want from a top ten prospect. But it absolutely does not mean he was a bad draft pick that he was killed in a home invasion. That makes exactly as much sense as it would make to say that the scouts should have known that a draft pick would get killed in a car accident or an earthquake. That could have happened to anyone, and Taylor was setting the tone on that ferocious defence. He was a good pick there. There aren't many safeties worth that. But there shouldn't be any question whatsoever that there haver been safeties good enough to have easily validated top ten picks. I'm sure you can come up with a list as easily as anyone else. And Jack dropped last year because he was injured and hadn't played in a while. That is not a reasonable comparison. Don't know whether we will pick a safety but probably two will go in the top ten, and I'm betting at least one will be a good bargain there. In regards to Taylor, yeah you cant blame the scouts as we have the benefit of hindsight and yes he had talent. But if you knew now that you would only get a couple years out of him, would you have spent the pick on him? I wouldn't have. Hence the lived up to the spot point I was making. I was trying to draw a similar comparison as I believe Jack's knee was a degenerative thing, and he is rumored to only have a limited number of years. Now that I think of it, wasn't Kuoandjio rumored to have a knee thing that wouldn't last long too? Could also explain his drop. I guess the point I was trying to make is that if people know that a players shelf life is limited, it impacts their draft stock and if there was a re-draft done, Taylor would not have been picked in the top 10 imo The difference between picking Top 10 and picking 11-25 is not a good reason to pass up a prospect. With that said, I can't imagine a scenario in this draft where trading down 5-10 spots wouldn't be the Bills best scenario. This team has at least five glaring positional needs (Wide Receiver, Right Tackle, Linebacker, Cornerback, Safety) and a few spots that we need to seriously consider (Quarterback, Tight End). The talent level between Picks #5-25 is not large. And even if we miss out on someone like Mike Williams, OJ Howard or Reuben Foster at #10, we could still get someone like Corey Davis, Cam Thomas or Zach Cunningham later in the round. Plus pickup another early draft selection. For everyone complaining that Doug Whaley isn't fired yet... this draft (more than any class he has assembled so far) is going to really show where he stands as a GM. The Bills absolutely must kill this draft class. Not just in getting immediate contributions from its rookie class, but also in getting good value moving around the draft board. Pulling out 1-2 decent starters is not going to cut it. So that would probably mean you don't see them spending a pick on a QB then no? Also, I don't think Corey Davis would last much longer after we pick, Mike Williams is more likely to drop but that's just my opinion obviously
Sammy Watkins' Rib Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2017/03/29/nfl-new-head-coaches-sean-mcvay-kyle-shanahan-sean-mcdermott-anthony-lynn-vance-joseph-doug-marrone Almost any position in their front seven can be upgraded." How far we have fallen in just a couple of seasons from the "cold front".
Blokestradamus Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 How far we have fallen in just a couple of seasons from the "cold front". I read it more as they rely on a dominant front 7 so McDermott won't stop applying resources to strengthen the unit. Rather than the Bills are devoid of talent up front.
mjt328 Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 So that would probably mean you don't see them spending a pick on a QB then no? Also, I don't think Corey Davis would last much longer after we pick, Mike Williams is more likely to drop but that's just my opinion obviously In my opinion, the signs are pointing against Buffalo going QB at #10. But I wouldn't be surprised at all if they take one later in the draft. 1. Re-Signing Taylor (after months of back and forth debate) tells me they didn't see Free Agency or the Draft offering immediate upgrades at the position. 2. They haven't pursued a veteran backup. That tells me they are probably leaving a roster spot open alongside Taylor and Jones for a draft pick. 3. I have heard about draft visits for Mahomes and Watson. But nothing on Trubisky, who is generally considered the top QB prospect. There is a good chance Trubisky is still available at #10, but probably not much longer. The other guys may drop to late first or even second round. This tells me they are more interested in mid/late round prospects at QB.
mjt328 Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 Agree to disagree on that point. There are usually 8 or so elite level talents in any given draft class, and then it falls off a bit. If a couple teams reach on QB or ignore prospects due to position one may still be available at 10. You are right on this year's draft. I think most years the "elite" talent is around 3-5 guys. This year is more like 6-7. Unfortunately, I don't see teams reaching for QBs early this year. And if any of the elite prospects drop, it's more than likely to be one of the Running Backs (which we don't need). The guys we need to drop (Jamal Adams, Malik Hooker, Marshon Lattimore)... I believe will be long gone. At #10, I think the Bills are likely to have a choice between guys like Mike Williams, Corey Davis, OJ Howard, Reuben Foster, Cam Robinson. Yes, they are all good prospects at positions of need. But in those cases, I don't see a huge drop off in talent by going down 5-10 spots. And there is a good chance someone on that list is still available.
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