John from Riverside Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 Still waiting for you to discuss football. You have been focused on personality and personal attacks since you arrived. You do kinda put yourself out there for that....and we are still waiting your you to discuss football as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommonCents Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 That's where he already was. So TT bet on himself, then gave up and took the money, played worse, and then bet on himself again and gave up $10M? Probably for the good of the team but we can't be sure of it. We can be sure that Taylor and his agent didn't know his market value though. We can also be sure that Kraft is funneling Brady money. We however can't be sure that agents discuss estimated value for their clients because that's against the rules. However evading the salary cap and making a total mockery of the NFL is widely accepted, even more so no one will notice when you win 5 rings. It's all so blurry now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 That's where he already was. So TT bet on himself, then gave up and took the money, played worse, and then bet on himself again and gave up $10M? No that's not where he already was. I'm not really sure what you're talking about. It's simple to see if you look at Spotrac: http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/tyrod-taylor-7899/ Under the old contract, his base salary was $12 mil this year, and it slowly escalated to $14.5 mil in 2021. He had no negotiating rights under that contract, so $14.5 mil was his maximum gain. By 2021 that's going to be pennies for a starting QB, I'm guessing by then top 15 starters will make about $25 mil annually give or take a couple million. Where are you confused? I don't understand how you're not seeing our point even if you disagree. He stands to make more money in his current situation. Yes he loses out on $10 million more in guaranteed money or whatever, but that's nothing compared to what he COULD be making if he improves. It isn't so hard to see that Tyrod bet on himself again. If he hadn't signed this extension he would have to go through the same exact motions but with a new team with entirely new coaches and players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transplantbillsfan Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 Hi Thurm - Thanks. I think you have to look at what's guaranteed and then what's likely. Guaranteed was $40, and what's likely now is $30. Why is it likely? Because there's no upside to the Bills cutting him after 2017, because the cap hit is almost as bad as keeping him. So unless he becomes a public relations problem, the Bills will always keep him for 2018. Even if they've found another starter, he's a better backup than they could find anywhere else. So I'm pretty sure Taylor looked at it as giving up $10 million. However, if you review what's been said and and the contract history, I think the conclusion that these negotiations are a lot less about the money and a lot more about the option to terminate the contract. That is, it's always been about Taylor's freedom to make a new deal and who has the option to set him free. He left Baltimore and wanted to go someplace where he could start. He didn't seem to spend any time or energy on getting a lot of money; he wanted to go somewhere where he had a good chance to start and where he would have a short contract. He signed a three year deal with Buffalo, but a major part of the deal for Tyrod was that he could opt out after two years. So what happened? He played well his first year and the Bills were unhappy about the fact that Taylor could leave after year two. That meant that if Taylor had a good year two, the Bills would have to give him something like five years at $20 million per to keep him, and the Bills knew that they weren't going to be willing to commit that much to him after year two. They wanted to see him for at least three years. So they go to Taylor and suggest renegotiating, so the Bills could have a full three years and then cut him without penalty if they wanted to. Taylor said no, because the option at the end of year two was what he wanted. He wasn't going to give up the option for nothing. He asked for a long-term deal with big money. Bills said no to the money, yes to the long-term IF the option to end it all without penalty at the end of year two came back to the Bills. Taylor said ok, he'll give up the option to get out because he has guaranteed money. Year two happens and Taylor underperforms, in comparison to year one and also in terms of what's good enough to win in the NFL. Now the Bills are on the hotseat. They have the option to end the deal and avoid the guarantees, but they aren't sure about Taylor. If Taylor is the year-one QB, the contract is a bargain. If he's the year-two QB, they're overpaying and they may want to move on. Meanwhile, Taylor doesn't have the same doubts. He's started for two years, he knows he can play in the league. His seasons are nothing like the seasons Manuel and most young QBs have in the league. He's seen guys bounce around the league. He knows for the next seven years he can get FItzpatrick-McCown money all day long. He's better than they are, and someone will always pay him to play or to be a quality backup on a contending team. That's his cushion. He knows that he's always going to be able to make the money he's guaranteed under his current contract. What he wants is to get the option back. He wants the leverage to be able to say in a year or two that he wants more money, more than he'd get locked up with the Bills through 2021 or whenever. So I think Taylor looked at it and said, "I'm guaranteed $40. Under the two-year deal we're talking about, I'm almost certainly going to get $30. I'm almost certainly going to get the additional $10 in the next one or two years after that. So the guarantee of $40 doesn't mean a lot; I'm going to get the $40 either way. But under the new deal, my upside in 2019, 2020 and 2021 is much higher. The salary cap is going up. If I play well, I can get over $20 a year, maybe even $25 a year." I think Taylor listened to that, has confidence in his abilities and his future, and said "this is easy - I'll get the $40 either way, and the new deal gives me options." Bills, likewise, liked the deal because THEY got the option to terminate without major pain after 2018. What the Bills gave up is the opportunity to have Taylor on the cheap if he turns out to be good. I think what very well could happen is that in 2017 Taylor has a good year - say a passer rating around 94, which is his average. That would be at or around top 10. Bills win 9-10 games. And next February or March, Taylor and the Bills are renegotiating AGAIN. Why? Because at that point the Bills don't want to go into 2018 with Taylor playing on a one-year deal. If he has another good season, his price tag will go WAY up - as I said, in the low- to mid-20s. So they'll be talking about a new deal, 4-5-6 years, just like the last one, worth more than the deal the Bills just got away from, and with more than half of it guaranteed. If Taylor has another mediocre season, Bills go looking for a new QB, keep Taylor for 2018 and then negotiate or let him walk. What happened is that Taylor gave up some money to get out from under a long term deal. The Bills gave up the bargain price for a starting QB in order to get out from under the long-term future. They're both betting on what Taylor does in the next two seasons. If Taylor didn't want to make that bet, he would have refused to renegotiate and called the Bills' bluff. Well said... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaw66 Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 That's where he already was. So TT bet on himself, then gave up and took the money, played worse, and then bet on himself again and gave up $10M? No. You just don't want to agree. Under his first Bills contract he was going to make about $3 million in three years; with incentives it could have been $6 million. Under his second Bills contract he got $6 million for his second year in Buffalo (so he did better in 2016 than he would have done in 2016 and 2017 under his first deal), and $40 million for his next three years (unless the Bills cut him before March 11, 2017). Clearly a better deal than where he was, in terms of money. But he gave up the ability to be a free agent in 2017 and left himself at Buffalo's mercy through 2021. In his third Bills contract, he gave up the last $10 million so that he could be a free agent in 2019. Why? Because he's confident he can do better from 2019 through 2021 as a free agent than under the terms of the his second Bills contract. He views it as a better deal for him. To recap, he went from $3-6 million in three years under his first contract to $46 million under his second contract to $36 million (adding 2016 back in for comparison sake) under his third contract, with the right become a free agent in 2018 (the prime of his career) instead of 2021 (the beginning of the tail end of his career). If it's a better deal for him, why did the Bills do it? They did it because THEY wanted the option to get out in a year or two, also. Just as Taylor was betting on his upside and was willing to give something up for it, the Bills wanted protection on their downside. Both sides got what they wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 (edited) No. You just don't want to agree. Under his first Bills contract he was going to make about $3 million in three years; with incentives it could have been $6 million. Under his second Bills contract he got $6 million for his second year in Buffalo (so he did better in 2016 than he would have done in 2016 and 2017 under his first deal), and $40 million for his next three years (unless the Bills cut him before March 11, 2017). Clearly a better deal than where he was, in terms of money. But he gave up the ability to be a free agent in 2017 and left himself at Buffalo's mercy through 2021. In his third Bills contract, he gave up the last $10 million so that he could be a free agent in 2019. Why? Because he's confident he can do better from 2019 through 2021 as a free agent than under the terms of the his second Bills contract. He views it as a better deal for him. To recap, he went from $3-6 million in three years under his first contract to $46 million under his second contract to $36 million (adding 2016 back in for comparison sake) under his third contract, with the right become a free agent in 2018 (the prime of his career) instead of 2021 (the beginning of the tail end of his career). If it's a better deal for him, why did the Bills do it? They did it because THEY wanted the option to get out in a year or two, also. Just as Taylor was betting on his upside and was willing to give something up for it, the Bills wanted protection on their downside. Both sides got what they wanted. It's not that I don't agree. I'm asking if "he's confident he can do better from 2019 through 2021 as a free agent than under the terms of the his second Bills contract," then why did he sign a deal that locked him up through 2021? Why did he lose the confidence? Edited April 12, 2017 by FireChan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 Didn't Brady play for a lesser contract in order to gain better pieces around him and give him a better chance to win? Seems like a crazy idea, huh? Are you daft? Tommy boy isn't getting paid any less. All the Pats do is move the money around. Smoke and Mirrors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 focused on personality and personal attacks I'm not making any accusations or suggesting any guilt, but I'd just like to say that from the perspective of a moderator who is just starting a 5 day stress-free vacation, it would be way cool if we could avoid that sort of thing in this here massive thread full of very "engaged" posters. Many thanks, my brothers and sisters........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 (edited) focused on personality and personal attacks I'm not making any accusations or suggesting any guilt, but I'd just like to say that from the perspective of a moderator who is just starting a 5 day stress-free vacation, it would be way cool if we could avoid that sort of thing in this here massive thread full of very "engaged" posters. Many thanks, my brothers and sisters........ Vacations over. Get back to work!!!! A moderator's job isn't easy. We've heard of the Bickering Bills Here we have the Bickering Bills Fans Edited April 12, 2017 by ShadyBillsFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transplantbillsfan Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 I can't believe this thread is almost 80 pages and strong, but it's essentially still going because there are legitimately people who doubt that Taylor is a starting NFL QB. That people are doubting that and calling him a backup QB is what brings out posters on the other side. http://thebiglead.com/2017/04/11/ranking-nfl-quarterbacks-1-32-for-the-2017-season/3/ http://newarena.com/nfl/ranking-all-32-nfl-starting-quarterbacks-from-worst-to-best/ http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000619129/article/qb-index-yearend-rankings https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-ranking-all-32-nfl-quarterbacks-this-season/ Maybe Taylor is an average to slightly below average starting NFL QB, but a QB who is anywhere between the 16th-21st best QB in the NFL means he's a guy who you can win with and will be under center for some NFL team. Can we settle on that, at least? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 focused on personality and personal attacks I'm not making any accusations or suggesting any guilt, but I'd just like to say that from the perspective of a moderator who is just starting a 5 day stress-free vacation, it would be way cool if we could avoid that sort of thing in this here massive thread full of very "engaged" posters. Many thanks, my brothers and sisters........ I believe the term is "containment thread." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 I can't believe this thread is almost 80 pages and strong, but it's essentially still going because there are legitimately people who doubt that Taylor is a starting NFL QB. That people are doubting that and calling him a backup QB is what brings out posters on the other side. http://thebiglead.com/2017/04/11/ranking-nfl-quarterbacks-1-32-for-the-2017-season/3/ http://newarena.com/nfl/ranking-all-32-nfl-starting-quarterbacks-from-worst-to-best/ http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000619129/article/qb-index-yearend-rankings https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-ranking-all-32-nfl-quarterbacks-this-season/ Maybe Taylor is an average to slightly below average starting NFL QB, but a QB who is anywhere between the 16th-21st best QB in the NFL means he's a guy who you can win with and will be under center for some NFL team. Can we settle on that, at least? I can't believe this thread is almost 80 pages and strong, but it's essentially still going because there are legitimately people who Think that Taylor is a Top Tier NFL QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transplantbillsfan Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 i'm guessing most "tyrod supporters" feel this way. i like having tyrod on the team for now, but an upgrade is needed without a doubt. some are makng this into a line in the sand type scenario. We do... if the Bills feel there's a QB available at 10 who is an upgrade over Taylor, take him. I don't know that there is because, frankly, I don't follow or care for college football much. And everything I hear and read is that this is a weak QB class and every single guy needs to sit on the bench at least a year. But if the Bills truly evaluate these QBs and find a guy better than Taylor, I'm 100% about them taking him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 I can't believe this thread is almost 80 pages and strong, but it's essentially still going because there are legitimately people who Think that Taylor is a Top Tier NFL QB. WHO....THINKS....THAT that is some made up **** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 It's not that I don't agree. I'm asking if "he's confident he can do better from 2019 through 2021 as a free agent than under the terms of the his second Bills contract," then why did he sign a deal that locked him up through 2021? Why did he lose the confidence? You mean last year? What was his other option then? He was coming off one good year. I'm wondering now in retrospect if the plan was always to restructure after 2016 because the cap hits under the old contract don't make sense. The Bills and Tyrod both didn't know what that restructure would look like but both surely knew it was a possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaw66 Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 It's not that I don't agree. I'm asking if "he's confident he can do better from 2019 through 2021 as a free agent than under the terms of the his second Bills contract," then why did he sign a deal that locked him up through 2021? Why did he lose the confidence? He put money in the bank. The six-year deal gave him $6 million in 2016 alone, plus another $40 guaranteed. He'd made nothing up till then. It was a good move for him. Then this year he gave a bit of it back - $10 million out of $46 - so that he could be a free agent again. He's been very smart about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 (edited) You mean last year? What was his other option then? He was coming off one good year. I'm wondering now in retrospect if the plan was always to restructure after 2016 because the cap hits under the old contract don't make sense. The Bills and Tyrod both didn't know what that restructure would look like but both surely knew it was a possibility. Bet on himself, like he did coming off one bad year and no years? That's the problem with your argument. It's hindsight. TT signing his extension in 2016 is the antithesis of "betting on himself." That was taking the money and running. You think if he had another year like 2015 or even a better year, he wouldn't have gotten that option picked up instantly? Imagine if TT was a top 12 QB in 2016. He'd be criminally underpaid and have cost himself millions by signing too soon. BUT, your argument is that he wouldn't do that because he believes in himself so much. It's bananas. It truly is. He put money in the bank. The six-year deal gave him $6 million in 2016 alone, plus another $40 guaranteed. He'd made nothing up till then. It was a good move for him. Then this year he gave a bit of it back - $10 million out of $46 - so that he could be a free agent again. He's been very smart about this. See above. Does he believe in himself or does he want money in the bank. It can't be both. Edited April 12, 2017 by FireChan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section122 Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 I can't believe this thread is almost 80 pages and strong, but it's essentially still going because there are legitimately people who Think that Taylor is a Top Tier NFL QB. Nobody. Nobody believes that. All of us in the "cot" (has there ever been a dumber term for fans - the guy who invented it is on an involuntary vacation...) have stated repeatedly we believe him to be about the 20th best QB. Jfh is probably the biggest homer on the board (never change buddy love you for it) and he is supportive of the idea of drafting a QB Transplant is a TT supporter and you just quotes a post where he says 16-21. I'm one of the biggest TT guys (wait and see on him) and I have him pegged about 20 and have also said I would be okay with a QB in the draft. The problem is the anti-TT people can't accept that others haven't written him off yet. You guys have made up your mind that he sucks. We haven't. We also haven't said he is a top 10 qb. I'm not even sure I've seen someone say he is top 15. However being the 20th best QB in the league says he should probably be a starter somewhere. He also has only PLAYED 2 seasons. So some of us are hoping he will progress as a qb, some of us aren't sure if he will but want to see, some of us think there are bigger holes on the roster, etc... my problem with Tyrod and the WCO. the west coast offense is basically a ball control passing offense. the running backs and tight ends are utilized as much, if not more so than the wide receivers. the design is intended to have the QB under center and to have a three or five step drop with a '21' personnel grouping. most of the routes are timing slants to WR's/TE's and/or swing passes to the backs out of the backfield. this is the hallmark of the 'ball control' aspect of the offense. again, the WCO is designed so that when the QB hits his fifth step he is supposed to release the ball. when the scheme calls for the vertical attack, with the 5 step drop, the QB is supposed to step up in the pocket and move around trying to find his target down field. another aspect is the play action pass that a mobile QB is supposed to be able to excel in. in this play call, the option is an option. i think it is pretty well known that Roman's offense is based upon the WCO and he ran it with great success in San Fran under Harbaugh utilizing Smith. what we saw in Buffalo was slightly different due to the fact that Rex wanted a significant ground game, however the elements of the WCO were still there. my doubts about Tyrod's ability to run the WCO stem from the play we have seen from him the past two years. for beginners, he is short for a QB. seeing over his offensive linemen to hit slants is going to be difficult. secondly, he panics in the pocket and often feels phantom pressure causing him to want to bolt and utilize his legs. then we have the scouting report from his college days that is still as accurate as the day he came out. in it, is says that his accuracy on short/intermediate levels is not very consistent. it also states that his anticipation and ability to 'throw receivers open' is not very good and he doesn't go through his progressions very good. all of which still plague him 6 years later. these are the reasons why i do not have a whole lot of belief that he will thrive in a pure WCO. now maybe Dennison is not going to run a pure WCO and hopefully will look to tailor the design of the offense to Tyrod's strengths. also, hopefully as the season progresses, i hope that Dennison finds what works and what doesn't, accentuating what does work and flushing what doesn't. i do not mean for this to sound pessimistic as that is not really my nature but if i am being honest, this is what my head tells me from everything we have seen the past two years, the information available and what they are saying they are going to do. one thing should be a sure bet, we are going to see primarily a pass control offense. i expect to see Tyrod put the ball up over 500 times this year. Hi Thurm - Thanks. I think you have to look at what's guaranteed and then what's likely. Guaranteed was $40, and what's likely now is $30. Why is it likely? Because there's no upside to the Bills cutting him after 2017, because the cap hit is almost as bad as keeping him. So unless he becomes a public relations problem, the Bills will always keep him for 2018. Even if they've found another starter, he's a better backup than they could find anywhere else. So I'm pretty sure Taylor looked at it as giving up $10 million. However, if you review what's been said and and the contract history, I think the conclusion that these negotiations are a lot less about the money and a lot more about the option to terminate the contract. That is, it's always been about Taylor's freedom to make a new deal and who has the option to set him free. He left Baltimore and wanted to go someplace where he could start. He didn't seem to spend any time or energy on getting a lot of money; he wanted to go somewhere where he had a good chance to start and where he would have a short contract. He signed a three year deal with Buffalo, but a major part of the deal for Tyrod was that he could opt out after two years. So what happened? He played well his first year and the Bills were unhappy about the fact that Taylor could leave after year two. That meant that if Taylor had a good year two, the Bills would have to give him something like five years at $20 million per to keep him, and the Bills knew that they weren't going to be willing to commit that much to him after year two. They wanted to see him for at least three years. So they go to Taylor and suggest renegotiating, so the Bills could have a full three years and then cut him without penalty if they wanted to. Taylor said no, because the option at the end of year two was what he wanted. He wasn't going to give up the option for nothing. He asked for a long-term deal with big money. Bills said no to the money, yes to the long-term IF the option to end it all without penalty at the end of year two came back to the Bills. Taylor said ok, he'll give up the option to get out because he has guaranteed money. Year two happens and Taylor underperforms, in comparison to year one and also in terms of what's good enough to win in the NFL. Now the Bills are on the hotseat. They have the option to end the deal and avoid the guarantees, but they aren't sure about Taylor. If Taylor is the year-one QB, the contract is a bargain. If he's the year-two QB, they're overpaying and they may want to move on. Meanwhile, Taylor doesn't have the same doubts. He's started for two years, he knows he can play in the league. His seasons are nothing like the seasons Manuel and most young QBs have in the league. He's seen guys bounce around the league. He knows for the next seven years he can get FItzpatrick-McCown money all day long. He's better than they are, and someone will always pay him to play or to be a quality backup on a contending team. That's his cushion. He knows that he's always going to be able to make the money he's guaranteed under his current contract. What he wants is to get the option back. He wants the leverage to be able to say in a year or two that he wants more money, more than he'd get locked up with the Bills through 2021 or whenever. So I think Taylor looked at it and said, "I'm guaranteed $40. Under the two-year deal we're talking about, I'm almost certainly going to get $30. I'm almost certainly going to get the additional $10 in the next one or two years after that. So the guarantee of $40 doesn't mean a lot; I'm going to get the $40 either way. But under the new deal, my upside in 2019, 2020 and 2021 is much higher. The salary cap is going up. If I play well, I can get over $20 a year, maybe even $25 a year." I think Taylor listened to that, has confidence in his abilities and his future, and said "this is easy - I'll get the $40 either way, and the new deal gives me options." Bills, likewise, liked the deal because THEY got the option to terminate without major pain after 2018. What the Bills gave up is the opportunity to have Taylor on the cheap if he turns out to be good. I think what very well could happen is that in 2017 Taylor has a good year - say a passer rating around 94, which is his average. That would be at or around top 10. Bills win 9-10 games. And next February or March, Taylor and the Bills are renegotiating AGAIN. Why? Because at that point the Bills don't want to go into 2018 with Taylor playing on a one-year deal. If he has another good season, his price tag will go WAY up - as I said, in the low- to mid-20s. So they'll be talking about a new deal, 4-5-6 years, just like the last one, worth more than the deal the Bills just got away from, and with more than half of it guaranteed. If Taylor has another mediocre season, Bills go looking for a new QB, keep Taylor for 2018 and then negotiate or let him walk. What happened is that Taylor gave up some money to get out from under a long term deal. The Bills gave up the bargain price for a starting QB in order to get out from under the long-term future. They're both betting on what Taylor does in the next two seasons. If Taylor didn't want to make that bet, he would have refused to renegotiate and called the Bills' bluff. 2 great posts on both sides of the fence. Thanks for your contributions guys. Some stuff for both sides to think about here. Had to wait until I was on a desktop to give you guys the credit you deserve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 (edited) WHO....THINKS....THAT that is some made up **** John IMO it is not. Some people actually think TT is a top tier QB. Not many, but they exist. They match the number in the group that says TT is not an NFL starting QB. its an observation I could be mistaken. ---- Oh and if you claim to be in the CoT..... You are on the edge of that group. Edited April 12, 2017 by ShadyBillsFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section122 Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 John IMO it is not. Some people actually think TT is a top tier QB. Not many, but they exist. They match the number in the group that says TT is not an NFL starting QB. Just name 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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