GoBills808 Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 EJ Manuel is the "kind of prospect" you build a franchise around. No one thought Russell Wilson was. This is exactly the kind of "keep doing the same thing" attitude that plagues so many GMs today IMO. There is no correct way to win the Super Bowl. Having an elite QB is the fastest way there to be fair, but not the only way. So I couldn't care less that Wentz "looks" like a franchise QB or has some nebulous set of traits that other franchise QBs have. I care how he produces on the field and last year, after defenses had tape on him, he performed worse than Tyrod did. That's just a fact no matter what statistical analysis you use, he was not as good at playing QB as Tyrod was. And there is no guarantee he ever develops. Some like EJ only get worse. Why would I trade a QB that I KNOW can reach the playoffs with better defense, for a QB that potentially will play like EJ? The Eagles defense with Tyrod is probably a playoff spot. Maybe, but it's hypothetical. I'd just as likely say if McCoy stays in Philly he and Wentz make the playoffs. Would you rather have Taylor over Prescott too?
CommonCents Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 This is the larger issue for me. Most fans demand excellence from every other position and look for replacements when expectations aren't met. We're even amenable to letting a guy like Gilmore walk when we know it's going to be a lesser relent replacing him. But upgrade the QB spot? 'Nobody better available!' 'Can't risk losing an average guy!' 'We can win with him, things just have to fall right!' It's so weird how the most important position is allowed such leeway in terms of performance. If the odds (these are made up numbers, but you get the idea) are even that the chances of improving, staying the same, or going backwards with a new QB are all equal...66.67% of the time you're either improving or maintaining by replacing a marginal QB. Why people don't hold the QB to the same standard as other positions I have no idea. You have no idea? I think it's because if you kick out the floor at QB there is a much better chance the team is unwatchable and plenty of season ticket holders would be wasting money. Sure they could have replaced TT and hoped for a DAk like performance which would salvage the season...but most likely it's going to be ugly.
jeffismagic Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 Shady McCoy did pretty damn good without Tyrod Taylor as his QB. You make it sound like the only reason McCoy is a good RB is because of Taylor. Disagree 100% Look, no Tyrod!!!
FireChan Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 Can't argue with anything here. Subtracting TT hurts our offense and his detractors need to understand that. If they can acknowledge that while also admitting they accept that our W-L record would be worse in the short term while another QB is groomed, I'd have more respect for some of their extreme positions. Our W-L certainly could be worse in the short term. Not necessarily. My biggest fear about keeping TT was another year or two gun shy on QB's. If cutting TT was the kick in ass this team needed to draft a guy they believe in, I was all for it. If not, he can stick around, it makes no difference. We'll see what happens.
GoBills808 Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 You have no idea? I think it's because if you kick out the floor at QB there is a much better chance the team is unwatchable and plenty of season ticket holders would be wasting money. Sure they could have replaced TT and hoped for a DAk like performance which would salvage the season...but most likely it's going to be ugly. Moving on from marginal QBs recently has helped the Jets in 2015, Redskins 2014, Seahawks, Vikings...it's not the death sentence you're making it out to be.
BADOLBILZ Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 Not buying that Roman and Kromer would not have had a strong running game with that personnel. Maybe you could make the case that without Tyrod it drops to say 5th. But its not going to go from best in the league to bad because Tyrod is gone, give me a break. And yes, a more efficient passer will mitigate some of that and help the run game too. You go from best running game ever to 5th in the league and from worst passing game to mediocre, its a better offense in both raw production AND situational scoring that's needed to win close games, something we failed miserably at consistently over 2 seasons. The Bills lead the NFL in rushing under Marrone........it doesn't take much more than a commitment to the run to be near the top nowadays. But to do what the Bills did the past two years is extraordinary. Roman's history suggests that his offense is worth a fraction of a ypc to the run game.........Frank Gore was a 4.3 ypc type guy under him and he's been a 3.9 guy after him. BUT, that SF OL was tremendous......loaded with high pedigree talent and they ran it at a much quicker and more violent pace than Buffalo because they COULD. What the Bills did with it was on another level.....DESPITE not having near the athletes on the OL in general. They ran it much more deliberately and their backs got tremendous yardage before contact............mainly because the run-pass-run option kept defensive fronts near the LOS longer, which allowed the Bills to execute the whole pin-pull game at a pace their OL could manage. Some people want to credit McCoy.......but when he wasn't buying into Roman's offense in year one he produced the same as he had in 2 of the previous seasons in Philly........the exception being the anomaly Chip year 1......where Chip took the NFL by storm and made Shady a 5 ypc back and Foles a 27 TD 2 INT QB. He knew he f*cked up by trying to take so many plays to the sideline.........it's gotten harder for backs to get to the edge as defenses have gotten smaller and faster and the big plays that were there 5 years ago are NOT out there for them anymore. In 2016 he followed the inside path that Karlos and MG had BEEN using in 2015 and he reaped the benefits.
jeffismagic Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 Moving on from marginal QBs recently has helped the Jets in 2015, Redskins 2014, Seahawks, Vikings...it's not the death sentence you're making it out to be. Yeah, I believe the Eagles started a rookie QB and won the same amount of games as the Bills last year.
BuffaloHokie13 Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 Look, no Tyrod!!! I might be mistaken, but isn't Shady the only player in common with that offense and ours? How about the 3 (or 2 since you don't want to count his 5 carries for 10 yards in week 17) games he's played here? In the Cincy game he had 17 carries for 90 yards, and 33 of them came on 1 run on the very first play of the game. To put that in classic Tyrod context, he carried the ball 16 times for 57 yards over the final 3.9 Quarters of the game. In the Jacksonville game he had 18 carries for 68 yards. All in all, Shady averages 4.2 YPC without Tyrod and 5.0 YPC with him over the past 2 years.
jeffismagic Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 The Bills lead the NFL in rushing under Marrone........it doesn't take much more than a commitment to the run to be near the top nowadays. But to do what the Bills did the past two years is extraordinary. Roman's history suggests that his offense is worth a fraction of a ypc to the run game.........Frank Gore was a 4.3 ypc type guy under him and he's been a 3.9 guy after him. BUT, that SF OL was tremendous......loaded with high pedigree talent and they ran it at a much quicker and more violent pace than Buffalo because they COULD. What the Bills did with it was on another level.....DESPITE not having near the athletes on the OL in general. They ran it much more deliberately and their backs got tremendous yardage before contact............mainly because the run-pass-run option kept defensive fronts near the LOS longer, which allowed the Bills to execute the whole pin-pull game at a pace their OL could manage. Some people want to credit McCoy.......but when he wasn't buying into Roman's offense in year one he produced the same as he had in 2 of the previous seasons in Philly........the exception being the anomaly Chip year 1......where Chip took the NFL by storm and made Shady a 5 ypc back and Foles a 27 TD 2 INT QB. He knew he f*cked up by trying to take so many plays to the sideline.........it's gotten harder for backs to get to the edge as defenses have gotten smaller and faster and the big plays that were there 5 years ago are NOT out there for them anymore. In 2016 he followed the inside path that Karlos and MG had BEEN using in 2015 and he reaped the benefits. What about Roman's offense in 2012? What did you think about that year where Colin Kaepernick started as well as Alex Smith. Under your theory shouldn't the YPC be higher under Kaepernick? I might be mistaken, but isn't Shady the only player in common with that offense and ours? How about the 3 (or 2 since you don't want to count his 5 carries for 10 yards in week 17) games he's played here? In the Cincy game he had 17 carries for 90 yards, and 33 of them came on 1 run on the very first play of the game. To put that in classic Tyrod context, he carried the ball 16 times for 57 yards over the final 3.9 Quarters of the game. In the Jacksonville game he had 18 carries for 68 yards. All in all, Shady averages 4.2 YPC without Tyrod and 5.0 YPC with him over the past 2 years. That's not really that relevant. There were 3 games to use. The 2016 game the team quit. In the 2015 games where EJ started, Shady ran for over 5 a carry in one game and under 4 in another. 2 games is not a real sample size.
CommonCents Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 Moving on from marginal QBs recently has helped the Jets in 2015, Redskins 2014, Seahawks, Vikings...it's not the death sentence you're making it out to be. I could go either way at QB, I'm not a Taylor guy but with the restructure I'm fine with him being here in the short term. I hope they address the position as they would if he had left. If I was investing money in seasons and going to the games every other week I would prefer keeping Taylor instead of going to see a Brian Hoyer type play.
BuffaloHokie13 Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 What about Roman's offense in 2012? What did you think about that year where Colin Kaepernick started as well as Alex Smith. Under your theory shouldn't the YPC be higher under Kaepernick? That's not really that relevant. There were 3 games to use. The 2016 game the team quit. In the 2015 games where EJ started, Shady ran for over 5 a carry in one game and under 4 in another. 2 games is not a real sample size. Right, of course, the games with players in common aren't relevant, but the ones where there are no others players in common on the field are...
jeffismagic Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 Right, of course, the games with players in common aren't relevant, but the ones where there are no others players in common on the field are... Did you read my breakdown of the 2012 49ers? I explain how it is relevant.
BuffaloHokie13 Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 Did you read my breakdown of the 2012 49ers? I explain how it is relevant. My statement is that the highlights of Shady on Philadelphia are irrelevant. I haven't said anything whatsoever about the 49ers.
BADOLBILZ Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 Shady McCoy did pretty damn good without Tyrod Taylor as his QB. You make it sound like the only reason McCoy is a good RB is because of Taylor. Disagree 100% Well, if you don't mind a lot LESS production.......then I guess it does not matter. Shady has always been fun to watch.......but there was a reason that he had hovered around league AVERAGE ypc in 3 of the 4 years prior to this year. The scatback is a dying breed because it's tough to make hay outside of the hashes in the NFL anymore. He got his sh*t together and adapted last year........the good eating is inside.........EXPONENTIALLY more so in THIS offense. It's pretty simple.......a 28 year old, high mileage RB isn't going to make a living outrunning the new breed of 4.4 speed LB's to the edge when they are FASTER and have the angle to boot.
jeffismagic Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 My statement is that the highlights of Shady on Philadelphia are irrelevant. I haven't said anything whatsoever about the 49ers. All the Shady video shows is that Shady was a great running back before he came here. Sounds obvious but people seem to forget.
BuffaloHokie13 Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 All the Shady video shows is that Shady was a great running back before he came here. Sounds obvious but people seem to forget. I agree he's always been a good player, I just don't think you can compare stats from a philly team with different personnel running a different offense to ours.
White Linen Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 Extends plays Low turnovers Pretty accurate Good teammate Hard worker Elite running ability
2020 Our Year For Sure Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 The Bills lead the NFL in rushing under Marrone........it doesn't take much more than a commitment to the run to be near the top nowadays. But to do what the Bills did the past two years is extraordinary. Roman's history suggests that his offense is worth a fraction of a ypc to the run game.........Frank Gore was a 4.3 ypc type guy under him and he's been a 3.9 guy after him. BUT, that SF OL was tremendous......loaded with high pedigree talent and they ran it at a much quicker and more violent pace than Buffalo because they COULD. What the Bills did with it was on another level.....DESPITE not having near the athletes on the OL in general. They ran it much more deliberately and their backs got tremendous yardage before contact............mainly because the run-pass-run option kept defensive fronts near the LOS longer, which allowed the Bills to execute the whole pin-pull game at a pace their OL could manage. Some people want to credit McCoy.......but when he wasn't buying into Roman's offense in year one he produced the same as he had in 2 of the previous seasons in Philly........the exception being the anomaly Chip year 1......where Chip took the NFL by storm and made Shady a 5 ypc back and Foles a 27 TD 2 INT QB. He knew he f*cked up by trying to take so many plays to the sideline.........it's gotten harder for backs to get to the edge as defenses have gotten smaller and faster and the big plays that were there 5 years ago are NOT out there for them anymore. In 2016 he followed the inside path that Karlos and MG had BEEN using in 2015 and he reaped the benefits. I'm not sure I directly disagree with any of this. But bottom line for me, its the best rush game designer on this planet, with Felton at FB, a strong run blocking OL and good halfbacks. Few teams can match all that, I would expect it to be one of the best run games around in terms of ypc. Is it the old 9ers line or the Cowboys line, no sir. But Glenn, Cog, Wood, Miller, Mills...none of them are terrible run blockers, 2 or 3 of them are standouts. Its got to be a top 10 run blocking line, perhaps top 5. And I'm with you on some of Wood's shortcomings just as I was a couple years ago- I wonder if he is part of the reason they ran more zone blocking than many of us expected. Even so, its a good unit designed for the ground attack. And McCoy, agree with every word you say here, I'll just point out that even when he went to the sideline he mostly did a commendable job of finishing his runs rather than taking himself out of bounds. Thing is, even though you lose the effect of a power back beating a defense into the ground, if you combine him with a good efficient passing game you can create fatigue a different way. What if rather than chilling at the LOS the DL is rushing the passer full-speed all day but we're mostly getting rid of the ball before they get to the QB, rather than holding it for hours? Then you have defenders wearing themselves down pass-rushing, wearing themselves down chasing WRs who with a better passer can now actually hurt them, and wearing themselves down chasing McCoy and his crazy cuts all over the field. And you still have the change of pace, one-cut runners like MG and Karlos who will deliver the knife the second the D sleeps on them. There's more than one way to skin a cat. Not sure if you've responded by press time but jeffismagic has a good point too.
BADOLBILZ Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 What about Roman's offense in 2012? What did you think about that year where Colin Kaepernick started as well as Alex Smith. Under your theory shouldn't the YPC be higher under Kaepernick? Taylor is the better passer.......for all of his deficiencies.........his deep ball is among the games very best and it is the throw which most complements their ground game.
jeffismagic Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 Taylor is the better passer.......for all of his deficiencies.........his deep ball is among the games very best and it is the throw which most complements their ground game. I was just trying to isolate the threat of an elite running QB which you were highlighting. The 49ers example shows that the threat from the run from QB doesn't necessarily improve the YPC.
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