thebandit27 Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 I don't think Tyrod brings anything to our running game, McCoy is McCoy, they make is sound like McCoy was nothing before coming to Buffalo and playing behind Tyrod because of his mobileness. They try to point to games with Tyrod but look who we had at QB to fill in of course it stunk other teams knew our bad QBs had real limitations and couldn't throw either so stack the box. The obvious counter argument is this: if it's just that McCoy is so great, then why did both Gillislee and K. Williams average over 5 YPC?
K-9 Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 If someone HONESTLY thinks that you could nurse 5.5+ ypc out of any stable of backs on that volume of carries with a better "passing QB" they simply don't understand how hard that is to accomplish. It is very common for teams with outstanding passers to have mediocre running games.........the pass game does not necessarily facilitate the run......the defensive approach to both in the NFL now is the same......stop the run on the way to the QB. That's where Tyrod throws a wrench in the works.......teams are much less aggressive wrt wrecklessly shooting gaps and a spy typically plays off the ball. As for whether the Bills should have had more success throwing the ball..........if they had better options in the passing game Taylor would have had more success. Tyrod is a cautious passer..........add in the fact that there was a PALPABLY LOW margin for error on this team and what you got was a QB that was ULTRA cautious.....and sure as hell not throwing 50/50 balls to Walter Powell or Brandon Tate. So in lieu of the kind of performances we saw late in the season versus Miami........we got a QB that was about to lead an offense to an NFL record for fewest turnovers in a season. It's not about nursing a fat rushing average, we already do that. It's about nursing a better passing game which should be better served by such a strong running game. I'm not going down the rabbit hole everyone else wants to go down in this thread. TT leaves a lot to be desired as a passer. Period. Lets hope Dennison can raise him to another level. In the meantime, based simply on what I've observed over two seasons, I am skeptical.
thebandit27 Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 Teams will stack the box and take that away and that's where he will be 3 and out again.Make him be a QB and that edge your talking about it shut down. That's what Jacksonville did this year against Buffalo...the result was a 75-yard TD run by Shady, and 2 TDs set up by bombs to Watkins (1 completion, 1 DPI).
John from Riverside Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 Teams will stack the box and take that away and that's where he will be 3 and out again.Make him be a QB and that edge your talking about it shut down. So we will only be 6th in the NFL in points again now that teams will employ the same strat as the last 2 years?
K-9 Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 Teams will stack the box and take that away and that's where he will be 3 and out again.Make him be a QB and that edge your talking about it shut down. I don't dispute that. Good passers should feast on stacked boxes and make defenses pay. I hope Dennison can help TT do just that.
xRUSHx Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 The obvious counter argument is this: if it's just that McCoy is so great, then why did both Gillislee and K. Williams average over 5 YPC? 1-2 punch. McCoy can wear them down and a fresh back comes in. That Pitt game shows when you take away that running game of the backs and Tyrod this offense is dead in the water.
John from Riverside Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 It's not about nursing a fat rushing average, we already do that. It's about nursing a better passing game which should be better served by such a strong running game. I'm not going down the rabbit hole everyone else wants to go down in this thread. TT leaves a lot to be desired as a passer. Period. Lets hope Dennison can raise him to another level. In the meantime, based simply on what I've observed over two seasons, I am skeptical. k9....the way you present it is at least fair and open to an actual discussion He isnt your prototype passing qb.......so improve the players on the other end of the passes and see what happens
GoBills808 Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 I like you, and think you're a good poster; the above seems abnormally short-sighted for you. Raw data vs. data with context is an argument that can always be put forward. If we simplify the discussion to only a fact-based argument, then what we have is an offense that finished 10th in points scored (7th in weeks where Taylor was at the helm) and 16th in yards from scrimmage. Largely bolstered by the run, the passing offense did enough to produce what was, by any metric, a total offense that was in the top 1/2-1/3 of the NFL. IMO, the discussion begins there. Sure. But immediately afterwards we see how little the passing game contributed, speaking strictly in terms of yardage and points. Correct? After looking at points, it makes sense to look at who scored them? You really need to dig to find where Mike Gillislee's YPA has any bearing on how good Taylor theoretically is. I'm sure it's near the same depth as DVOA and QBR, I just don't see the need to go there. He's not an enigma, he's a fundamentally limited stop-gap which should be pretty apparent from the eye test and basic statistical analysis.
xRUSHx Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 So we will only be 6th in the NFL in points again now that teams will employ the same strat as the last 2 years? I think that first year of Tyrod was a fluke, teams know him now I think more teams will use the Pitt plan this coming season. Make him be a QB.
John from Riverside Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 1-2 punch. McCoy can wear them down and a fresh back comes in. That Pitt game shows when you take away that running game of the backs and Tyrod this offense is dead in the water. what you continue to leave out of your argement it is a symbiotic relationship......Tyrod as a threat of a runner doesnt allow defenses to pin their ears back and risk losing contain......and his threat as a runner also doesnt allow to key in on our running backs As shown in the last game of the season I think that first year of Tyrod was a fluke, teams know him now I think more teams will use the Pitt plan this coming season. Make him be a QB. There have been TWO years of this
fridge Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 I do feel like the large majority of these pro-tyrod posts end up being all over the place. He did very little to instill confidence in me in tight games, especially in second half drives after the defense gave up a score. It seems that when we absolutely needed him to make a play, it wasn't there. You can trot out plenty of stats, blame the defense, that's all fine - but I saw the offense crumble in key situations all season as well. It's not all Tyrod's fault, but he didn't really step it up and become the gamer a lot of you pretend that he is.
thebandit27 Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 Sure. But immediately afterwards we see how little the passing game contributed, speaking strictly in terms of yardage and points. Correct? After looking at points, it makes sense to look at who scored them? You really need to dig to find where Mike Gillislee's YPA has any bearing on how good Taylor theoretically is. I'm sure it's near the same depth as DVOA and QBR, I just don't see the need to go there. He's not an enigma, he's a fundamentally limited stop-gap which should be pretty apparent from the eye test and basic statistical analysis. I don't know that anyone is making Tyrod out to be more than a fundamentally-limited player. I do think, however, that some folks believe that the team can be more than a playoff contender with him as the QB. I'm not sure I'm one of them, but the fact that the offense was 7th in points scored with him at QB does lend some credence to that idea.
xRUSHx Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 k9....the way you present it is at least fair and open to an actual discussion He isnt your prototype passing qb.......so improve the players on the other end of the passes and see what happens This is what scares me, having Sammy and another top WR hanging out in the end zone wide open while Tyrod runs for his life.
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 How is he going to get it balanced with a QB that has problems being a QB? I just don't see any different in the offense, I see teams forcing Tyrod to be a QB and all that will do is make the last Pitt game really stand out, negative 1 yard per play after a full half and that was after our D got 3 turnovers for Tyrod to capitalize on and of course he couldnt. Captain 3 and out. ....which clearly goes back to my original statement....Dennison needs to get this offense balanced, especially if TT is the presumed starter.....and of course your man love for TT is legendary going all the way back to BBMB.....
John from Riverside Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 I do feel like the large majority of these pro-tyrod posts end up being all over the place. He did very little to instill confidence in me in tight games, especially in second half drives after the defense gave up a score. It seems that when we absolutely needed him to make a play, it wasn't there. You can trot out plenty of stats, blame the defense, that's all fine - but I saw the offense crumble in key situations all season as well. It's not all Tyrod's fault, but he didn't really step it up and become the gamer a lot of you pretend that he is. Its a fair complaint I do wonder how much of the non risk taking was due to being conservative BECAUSE of our defensive problems......if you start throwing picks with last years D your gonna get blown out
GoBills808 Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 I don't know that anyone is making Tyrod out to be more than a fundamentally-limited player. I do think, however, that some folks believe that the team can be more than a playoff contender with him as the QB. I'm not sure I'm one of them, but the fact that the offense was 7th in points scored with him at QB does lend some credence to that idea. I don't dispute the argument that we might be able to make the playoffs with Taylor. But in my mind that's the absolute height of our aspirations with him. This argument stemmend from a poster who said the only reason to take Wentz over Taylor was their respective ages, which I completely disagree with. Wentz is the kind of prospect you build a franchise around, and Taylor simply isn't.
John from Riverside Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 This is what scares me, having Sammy and another top WR hanging out in the end zone wide open while Tyrod runs for his life. that did not happen a lot And when Sammy (even when he was limited) was on the field Tyrod was looking or him in the latter part of the season. But anyways.....how do we discard it unless we actually try it
fridge Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 TT leaves a lot to be desired as a passer. Period. It's very difficult to argue this.
CommonCents Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 Its a fair complaint I do wonder how much of the non risk taking was due to being conservative BECAUSE of our defensive problems......if you start throwing picks with last years D your gonna get blown out Not only did the defense suck but the offense sucked because it was trying to help the defense stop sucking!? What in the world is going on
John from Riverside Posted March 16, 2017 Posted March 16, 2017 I don't dispute the argument that we might be able to make the playoffs with Taylor. But in my mind that's the absolute height of our aspirations with him. This argument stemmend from a poster who said the only reason to take Wentz over Taylor was their respective ages, which I completely disagree with. Wentz is the kind of prospect you build a franchise around, and Taylor simply isn't. This team has NO chance unless the defense improves
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