boyst Posted March 27, 2017 Posted March 27, 2017 Topic comes up every year. Last year was about GB,which drafted lots of late qbs like Flynn and others who never amount to much but a system backup for them vs. Vet backup
mjt328 Posted March 27, 2017 Posted March 27, 2017 The Bills have demonstrated they can somewhat draft every position but QB. The constant 7-9 records proves this as well the last 10 years. With those records we are forced into a corner at BPA, which will happen again on a DB who in 4-5 years we will let walk again cause he plays to his draft position = Gilmore. When will the madness stop? How many coaches need to be fired? It's not that hard of a concept - 1. OLINE 2. QB 3. Then draft the way we have for the last 20 years (BPA) but add in more QB's to develop like the PATS have every 2-3 years. We actually have #1 in place for the most part for the 1st time in a very long time. We could use some help at RT but that can be fixed. I personally can give a rats ass about #3 until #2 is fixed. I'm getting very thin with this team for the 1st time since becoming a fan during the 1983 season on due to this exact thread the OP started. Quarterback is the hardest position to evaluate. If a team is bad at drafting every other position, odds are pretty high they will fail at picking the correct QB as well. If a team is consistently good at drafting other positions, they will probably be better at evaluating the quarterback spot too. It's hard to say the Bills have "demonstrated" the ability to hit on every other position, because we have had 4 different GMs over the span of the last decade. For instance, Buddy Nix did a great job landing Cordy Glenn in the 2nd Round as a solid Left Tackle. But Doug Whaley has struggled to find good offensive linemen in the draft. And neither Whaley or Nix have proven capable of finding late-round talent. I've been willing to give Whaley a pass because of the constant fluctuation with our ownership and coaching staff. But the time for excuses are now over. It's time for the guy to start hitting on his draft picks. Otherwise, it's time for him to go.
Chuck Wagon Posted March 27, 2017 Posted March 27, 2017 I don't believe this at all. Name these QBs, because I can't think of one. This is why I wished the Bills didn't sign Taylor. I think fans are feeling satisfied at the QB position, when there's a really bad QB situation that's only going to get twice as worse once the aging QBs retire the next two years and this franchise is now fighting with 10-12 NFL teams looking for a franchise QB instead of the normal 6. Tim Couch and David Carr are the two easy examples, they were put on expansion teams with very little talent around them and got wrecked from getting smacked around. Byron Leftwich might be another example, he got smacked around before eventually being replaced with a more mobile option Garrard. Jake Locker is another guy who looked like he had all the talent to succeed at the position but got smacked around and had little help around him. The Jets and Browns have taken as many QBs in the draft as any team in the league. have they just mis-evaluated the talent on every single one or do they have a systematic failure that prevents QBs from succeeding? I think it's much more likely the later than it is likely that teams like New England, Dallas, Pittsburgh, Seattle, Green Bay are just miles ahead in the evaluation process. The teams with QBs have talent all over the roster compared to the teams without QBs, some of it is absolutely scouting, but the stories of guys drafted after the top 10 who turn into something on perennially poorly run teams are non-existent. If New England, Dallas and Seattle knew Brady / Dak - Romo / Wilson would be that good, they would have taken them much earlier. Topic comes up every year. Last year was about GB,which drafted lots of late qbs like Flynn and others who never amount to much but a system backup for them vs. Vet backup I tend to believe every single QB in the league is a "system" QB. Tom Brady is not going to be successful if asked to do the things Cam Newton is asked to do and vice versa. The smart teams are able to find talent that fits their system. I think that goes a long way towards explaining why guys like Flynn and Cassel look so good in one system and struggle as soon as they leave the cocoon.
jeffismagic Posted March 27, 2017 Posted March 27, 2017 (edited) Tim Couch and David Carr are the two easy examples, they were put on expansion teams with very little talent around them and got wrecked from getting smacked around. Byron Leftwich might be another example, he got smacked around before eventually being replaced with a more mobile option Garrard. Jake Locker is another guy who looked like he had all the talent to succeed at the position but got smacked around and had little help around him. The Jets and Browns have taken as many QBs in the draft as any team in the league. have they just mis-evaluated the talent on every single one or do they have a systematic failure that prevents QBs from succeeding? I think it's much more likely the later than it is likely that teams like New England, Dallas, Pittsburgh, Seattle, Green Bay are just miles ahead in the evaluation process. The teams with QBs have talent all over the roster compared to the teams without QBs, some of it is absolutely scouting, but the stories of guys drafted after the top 10 who turn into something on perennially poorly run teams are non-existent. If New England, Dallas and Seattle knew Brady / Dak - Romo / Wilson would be that good, they would have taken them much earlier. The Browns had Kyle Shanahan in house before the 2014 draft. They asked him to study the QB's and give recommendations. He told them to draft Derek Carr then Jimmy G. The owner listened to a homeless man who told him to take Manziel before the draft. Edited March 27, 2017 by jeffismagic
mjt328 Posted March 27, 2017 Posted March 27, 2017 I don't believe this at all. Name these QBs, because I can't think of one. This is why I wished the Bills didn't sign Taylor. I think fans are feeling satisfied at the QB position, when there's a really bad QB situation that's only going to get twice as worse once the aging QBs retire the next two years and this franchise is now fighting with 10-12 NFL teams looking for a franchise QB instead of the normal 6. If a quarterback is "franchise material" - then I believe his play will show it, regardless of the talent around him. However, there are lots of franchise quarterbacks who consistently watch the playoffs from home, because the teams around them are not good enough. I already mentioned Andrew Luck, who is surrounded by a horrible Colts team and hasn't made the playoffs in 2 years. Same with Phillip Rivers. Drew Brees is a Hall of Fame QB. But since their Super Bowl victory, the team around him has degraded and the Saints annually finish 7-9. Matthew Stafford has watched the Lions go up and down throughout his entire career in Detroit. Quarterback may be the most important piece. But it is still only a piece.
BillsFanInJax Posted March 27, 2017 Posted March 27, 2017 Bills Record over since 2013: 30-34 2013 - Alonso (traded for McCoy). That's it. 2014 - Watkins, Kouandjio, Brown. That's it. 2015 - Darby, Miller, O'Leary. That's it. Below average drafts. Below average record. The other thing is Buffalo is not a desired destination. That's why Bills SHOULD BE drafting, developing, and holding onto their talent instead of taking flyers on Clipboard Jones, and E and J. Next personnel move should be obvious to PSE. Fire Whaley. He's not a very good GM.
Real McClappy Posted March 27, 2017 Posted March 27, 2017 Bills Record over since 2013: 30-34 2013 - Alonso (traded for McCoy). That's it. 2014 - Watkins, Kouandjio, Brown. That's it. 2015 - Darby, Miller, O'Leary. That's it. Below average drafts. Below average record. The other thing is Buffalo is not a desired destination. That's why Bills SHOULD BE drafting, developing, and holding onto their talent instead of taking flyers on Clipboard Jones, and E and J. Next personnel move should be obvious to PSE. Fire Whaley. He's not a very good GM. So from 2013, Woods, Meeks, Goodwin and Hopkins don't count? Not to mention trying to address the teams #1 need at QB. I have zero issues with the 2013 draft. if you get 3+ starters from any draft class I would consider that average or above. The record your displaying is just proving how close you can and will get in the NFL without a true #1 QB with all other pieces in place. The desired destination is a BBMB proven myth. It's all and always about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
mjt328 Posted March 27, 2017 Posted March 27, 2017 Bills Record over since 2013: 30-34 2013 - Alonso (traded for McCoy). That's it. 2014 - Watkins, Kouandjio, Brown. That's it. 2015 - Darby, Miller, O'Leary. That's it. Below average drafts. Below average record. The other thing is Buffalo is not a desired destination. That's why Bills SHOULD BE drafting, developing, and holding onto their talent instead of taking flyers on Clipboard Jones, and E and J. Next personnel move should be obvious to PSE. Fire Whaley. He's not a very good GM. Exactly. I believe a team needs to average 3 solid picks per draft (strong starters) in order to build and maintain a strong team. Otherwise, you are forced to use Free Agency to fill in needs, and eventually the Salary Cap starts becoming an issue. Since Whaley took over as GM, the Bills have averaged about 2. That isn't enough.
stuvian Posted March 27, 2017 Posted March 27, 2017 we have not successfully developed a drafted QB since Joe Ferguson
BillsFanInJax Posted March 27, 2017 Posted March 27, 2017 Count em if it makes you feel better. All below average.
GunnerBill Posted March 27, 2017 Posted March 27, 2017 Bills Record over since 2013: 30-34 2013 - Alonso (traded for McCoy). That's it. 2014 - Watkins, Kouandjio, Brown. That's it. 2015 - Darby, Miller, O'Leary. That's it. Below average drafts. Below average record. The other thing is Buffalo is not a desired destination. That's why Bills SHOULD BE drafting, developing, and holding onto their talent instead of taking flyers on Clipboard Jones, and E and J. Next personnel move should be obvious to PSE. Fire Whaley. He's not a very good GM. Henderson is still technically on the team from 2014. You also have to factor in he drafted a starting calibre kicker in 2013 as well who suffered an untimely pre-season injury and lost his job because Carp who they picked up last minute was money throughout 2013 and 2014. That isn't Whaley's fault. You could also factor in he drafted a corner in the 4th round in 2014 who is now starting in the league who was cut because the owner's hand picked Head Coach didn't value him as a scheme fit. Again, that isn't Whaley's fault. This is why it is difficult to judge him. There are so many mitigating factors.
BillsFanInJax Posted March 27, 2017 Posted March 27, 2017 Huh? Blowing pick 16 in 2013 WAS Whaley's fault. Blowing a 4th rounder on Clipboard Jones was Whaley's fault. Overspending for Sammy Watkins was Whaley's fault. Your saying Whaley is a top notch GM because of Hopkins and Cockrell. Give me a break. Buffalo's record is 30-34 since he's been buying the groceries. Wake up Buffalo. He was also the one that backed up the brinks truck on Dareus. How did that work out?
mjt328 Posted March 27, 2017 Posted March 27, 2017 So from 2013, Woods, Meeks, Goodwin and Hopkins don't count? Not to mention trying to address the teams #1 need at QB. I have zero issues with the 2013 draft. if you get 3+ starters from any draft class I would consider that average or above. The record your displaying is just proving how close you can and will get in the NFL without a true #1 QB with all other pieces in place. The desired destination is a BBMB proven myth. It's all and always about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ You have to admit. Our 2013 draft was not very good. I don't understand how anyone can think otherwise. Kiko Alonso was a good pick. Robert Woods was a solid pick. Nickel Robey was a decent UDFA, if you want to toss in those guys. Nobody else has amounted to anything worthwhile in the NFL. The next best player is Marquise Goodwin, and he is nothing more than a #4 speed guy. EJ Manuel just got a rock-bottom contract to compete for Oakland's backup job. Duke Williams was a massive liability every time he stepped on the field. Jonathan Meeks has never started a game in the NFL. Chris Gragg has always been that guy with potential that never really did anything. Dustin Hopkins didn't even make the team, and isn't currently in the league. A GM has 22 starting spots to fill, and over 50 roster spots to fill. How can you consider it a success to get 2-3 contributors per year?
GunnerBill Posted March 27, 2017 Posted March 27, 2017 Your saying Whaley is a top notch GM because of Hopkins and Cockrell. Give me a break. Oh good you will be able to point to where I said that then. I'll wait.
BillsFanInJax Posted March 27, 2017 Posted March 27, 2017 2014 wasn't all that great either. We gave up an additional starter to draft Watkins. 2015 wasn't all that great either. Just look at it.
GunnerBill Posted March 27, 2017 Posted March 27, 2017 Dustin Hopkins didn't even make the team, and isn't currently in the league. Didn't make the team because of injury. Had actually won the job then did his groin. Carp then came in and I think people have forgotten how good hia first two seasons here were so Hopkins lost the camp battle to Carp the following year. And he is now the Redskins kicker.
BillsFanInJax Posted March 27, 2017 Posted March 27, 2017 Adds to his record of poor drafting. He DRAFTED a kicker that couldn't make the team at the time.
GunnerBill Posted March 27, 2017 Posted March 27, 2017 Adds to his record of poor drafting. He DRAFTED a kicker that couldn't make the team at the time. He won the job before injury.
BillsFanInJax Posted March 27, 2017 Posted March 27, 2017 Bottom line is Bills drafted him and he didn't stick. If he was all that, put him on IR. Besides, kickers like Hopkins are a dime a dozen. In fact, we just signed one. Look at Arroyo in Tampa. Bucs blew a 2nd on him and he was horrible last year. It was another bad decision by Whaley in the draft. But it was part of Whaley's strategy of only drafting from powerhouse schools. Hopkins and E & J = Florida State. Both gone now. Nice job Doug
GunnerBill Posted March 27, 2017 Posted March 27, 2017 Adds to his record of poor drafting. He DRAFTED a kicker that couldn't make the team at the time. He won the job before injury. There is plenty of legitimate reason to criticise Whaley without misrepresenting the truth. I have been willing to give him more slack than most I suppose but I am not banging the table for Doug Whaley to stay and to be honest I have not liked the moves this offseason. I'd have paid Gilmore and tried to re-sign Zach Brown over paying Alexander and signing the host of insipid FAs we have brought in. If Whaley and McDermott are at odds Whaley should go, no question. If he really is being cut out of things at OBD he should be fired or resign right after the draft. I have a different view on some of the moves than you. I like the Watkins move and don't really have a problem with the cost and I don't hate the Dareus contract either. I give him credit for Darby and Miller and the McCoy and Hughes trades and picking up Zach Brown and Gilleslee and Charles and Bryant and Groy and his many other off the street guys who have contributed. I also feel sorry for him having to work with Rex Ryan who I have always thought was a blowhard idiot promoted above his level of competence as a Head Football Coach. I could have told you that was doomed to fail the day we hired him. There are, however, moves Whaley has made I haven't liked. I never liked the Koundjio pick and I don't believe Ragland will ever be capable of living up to the price paid for him, hardly any middle linebacker could. He has struggled to unearth those late round gems - eventually a Listenbee or a Lewis or a Randall Johnson has to workout GMs should be hitting on at least one every 3 years in those later rounds. Karlos his one big hit went quickly off the rails and character matters to me so that is part on Doug for sure. In FA I hated the Harvin signing both times and I hate the Clay contract (though not the player). So when I sit back and evaluate the whole picture I come down on some good, some bad, better than what came before but not yet the GM who has transformed us into a contender. It is possible to not love someone's work and at the same time not be clamouring for their firing. Bottom line is Bills drafted him and he didn't stick. If he was all that, put him on IR. Besides, kickers like Hopkins are a dime a dozen. In fact, we just signed one. I am starting to think you are not very clued up on some of the detail here because they did put Hopkins on IR. The next pre-season he was beaten out in camp by a guy (Carpenter) who was in the midst if what I believe was the best 2 year run by a kicker in Bills history. He was money his first season there was no way the Bills were moving on from that. Had Carpenter of the last 2 seasons been in that competiton there is no doubt about it Hopkins would have been our kicker.
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