jeffismagic Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 I am not associating myself with the reasoning of Bill_with_it but I would share his disappointment if the Bills picked Ross at #10. I have a borderline 1st/2nd round grade on him. My concerns are not related to injury, or size (though strength does play in as I will explain), or even the relative level of Pac 12 competition. My concerns are based on his tape. I think he struggles to get off against defensive backs who are physical with him at the line, I don't see separation based on anything other than his speed (and savvier NFL defences will find ways to take some of that away) and I don't see enough of him really competing for balls in traffic and making contest catches. Someone like Antonio Brown, who has been mentioned here as a size comparison, has always been willing to put his body in potential harms way to make a contested catch on a slant where a covering defender has committed to making a play on the ball. They are the catches that offer real YAC possibilities because if the receiver comes up with the ball then the over committed defender is out of position and the defense is on its heals trying to adjust. What I like about him, other than the obvious explosive speed is that he is a really good ball tracker (that is where the Goodwin comparisons hold no water for me), he understands the receiver position and wastes no steps in his footwork, can play inside or outside and has really good hands (again... nothing like Goodwin). If the Bills did find a trade back partner and wanted to take Ross in the late teens or early 20s I could get on board with that. If they want to pick him at #10 with either Davis or Williams on the board I think that is a mistake. I would take John Ross off my draft board. The injury history with both knees and he does not project as an elite #1 WR. He will be a nice guy to run vertical routes but you can get a guy like that far cheaper than 10th overall.
Kirby Jackson Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 I don't know. Ask Deshaun WatsonHe had 259 yards, 1 TD and 2 INT. Watson didn't light them up. The Ohio State offense was the problem.Hes not very knowledgeable and im not a punk. I showed you how knowledgeable he is he stated Ross was injured once and referred to that surgery as coming up meaning his shoulder surgery. He was clearly wrong. You cant be serious with this thought that the defenses Ross faced were better than the likes of the ACC and Big 12. Just because you respect him doesnt make him right, he didnt even put up the correct stats. Said he only missed one year due to injury. How much further wrong can he get? As usual resort to immature rant calling me a third grader based on my using an iphone on a message board. I guess when all else fails you have to hang your hat on something.It hasn't taken long for you to look like an a-hole. You come on here and pick a fight with one of the most knowledgeable and respected posters here. Bandit puts in countless hours of scouting to keep us all informed. He provides a ton of value to TBD. You, on the other hand, are dancing in the end zone because Ross had 24 TDs and not 23. If you don't want Ross that's fine but he is a highly thought of prospect. There is no need to pretend otherwise. The guy that he really reminds me of is Brandin Cooks.
Bill_with_it Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 He had 259 yards, 1 TD and 2 INT. Watson didn't light them up. The Ohio State offense was the problem. It hasn't taken long for you to look like an a-hole. You come on here and pick a fight with one of the most knowledgeable and respected posters here. Bandit puts in countless hours of scouting to keep us all informed. He provides a ton of value to TBD. You, on the other hand, are dancing in the end zone because Ross had 24 TDs and not 23. If you don't want Ross that's fine but he is a highly thought of prospect. There is no need to pretend otherwise. The guy that he really reminds me of is Brandin Cooks. This is total bull. He posted uninformed speculation. Completely unaware of the young mans injury history. I dont care what he does or how hes respected. If you are wrong Im going to point it out. Now you insinuate im an ass because you dont agree with me and i pointed out the guys wrong information in not one but multiple things with ross. Continue to lie to yourself. The kid wouldnt be talked about at all if he hadnt ran as fast as he did in the combine.
jeffismagic Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 This is total bull. He posted uninformed speculation. Completely unaware of the young mans injury history. I dont care what he does or how hes respected. If you are wrong Im going to point it out. Now you insinuate im an ass because you dont agree with me and i pointed out the guys wrong information in not one but multiple things with ross. Continue to lie to yourself. The kid wouldnt be talked about at all if he hadnt ran as fast as he did in the combine. You can say that about any player. Take away their best trait and they wouldn't be a good prospect.
Kirby Jackson Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 (edited) This is total bull. He posted uninformed speculation. Completely unaware of the young mans injury history. I dont care what he does or how hes respected. If you are wrong Im going to point it out. Now you insinuate im an ass because you dont agree with me and i pointed out the guys wrong information in not one but multiple things with ross. Continue to lie to yourself. The kid wouldnt be talked about at all if he hadnt ran as fast as he did in the combine.I'm pretty confident that he is aware of Ross' injury history. He knows these prospects as well as anyone (along with Blokes and Gunner). Ross was thought of as a 1st round pick before the combine. I insinuated that you were an a-hole because you were disrespectful not because I don't agree with you. I don't judge people on their opinions or the information that they provide. I only comment when people don't treat others well. Edited April 10, 2017 by Kirby Jackson
thebandit27 Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 (edited) The part where he said he isnt oft injured? When he was corrected that the kid has missed more time from his college career to injury than he has played? I was going to leave you be, but fallacies occasionally need to be corrected. http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/john-ross-1/gamelog/ Played 13 games in 2013 Played 13 games in 2014 Missed 2015 with a knee injury (http://www.seattletimes.com/sports/uw-husky-football/uws-john-ross-iii-to-miss-2015-season-with-knee-injury/) Played 14 games in 2016 It's fine to get something wrong (like, for example 23 TDs vs 24), but when you refuse to acknowledge any time you're shown that you're wrong, well, that's well beyond reason. As I've said before, it's fine if you don't want the guy at 10. I don't either, though I do think there's a solid chance that he goes top-10 (or at least would have if not for the labrum surgery--I had him at 16th on my board before the surgery). Just state facts about the kid, or at least live in the realm of reality when talking about him. Or, failing that, be prepared to be called out when you make a ridiculous comparison to guys whose entire college careers barely equal Ross' senior season. Edited April 10, 2017 by thebandit27
GunnerBill Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 I'm pretty confident that he is aware of Ross' injury history. He knows these prospects as well as anyone (along with Blokes and Gunner). Ross was thought of as a 1st round pick before the combine. And everyone knew how quick he was pre-combine too. The idea that the combine majorly changed things for Ross is silly in my mind. We all expected he was going to run super fast, because when you look at his tape you know what you see? Him running super fast. To my eye and my mind he was the 3rd best receiver in this class before the Combine, and a likely 1st round pick (though I have a borderline grade as I said above) and remained exactly that after the combine.
T master Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 The Bills need to draft a QB in the first because Taylor sucks. Evidence of this is that no other team in the league wanted him, so he came back. My write-in pick is Mahomes. Is Mahomes a sure thing ??? He does have a gun !!! Last year Tyrod had scored enough points in a number of games to win them IF the D would have held the opponents from scoring but they didn't !! So i think QB is not an immediate need seeing as they signed Tyrod, meaning he can score enough points for the Bills to win. This draft is full of really good defensive players this year & D wins championships !! One player that the Bills haven't had in years is a good TE, if Howard is there i say grab him because if you want to follow a blue print for winning (which the Bills haven't been paying attention to only when they lose to them) look at what the Pats have done with 2 TE's over the last 10+ yrs if you put Howard & Clay on the field at the same time with Sammy & another decent WR with Shady out of the back field ...
Bill_with_it Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 And everyone knew how quick he was pre-combine too. The idea that the combine majorly changed things for Ross is silly in my mind. We all expected he was going to run super fast, because when you look at his tape you know what you see? Him running super fast. To my eye and my mind he was the 3rd best receiver in this class before the Combine, and a likely 1st round pick (though I have a borderline grade as I said above) and remained exactly that after the combine. Show me any mock draft prior to the combine that had this dude top 10 heck first round.
thebandit27 Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 Show me any mock draft prior to the combine that had this dude top 10 heck first round. Nobody had him top-10 pre-combine; pretty much everyone has said that. As for 1st round, well, here's one from Daniel Jeremiah--a career scout--that had him at 18 overall to Tennessee: http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/mock-drafts/daniel-jeremiah/335600
Bill_with_it Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 (edited) I was going to leave you be, but fallacies occasionally need to be corrected. http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/john-ross-1/gamelog/ Played 13 games in 2013 Played 13 games in 2014 Missed 2015 with a knee injury (http://www.seattletimes.com/sports/uw-husky-football/uws-john-ross-iii-to-miss-2015-season-with-knee-injury/) Played 14 games in 2016 It's fine to get something wrong (like, for example 23 TDs vs 24), but when you refuse to acknowledge any time you're shown that you're wrong, well, that's well beyond reason. As I've said before, it's fine if you don't want the guy at 10. I don't either, though I do think there's a solid chance that he goes top-10 (or at least would have if not for the labrum surgery--I had him at 16th on my board before the surgery). Just state facts about the kid, or at least live in the realm of reality when talking about him. Or, failing that, be prepared to be called out when you make a ridiculous comparison to guys whose entire college careers barely equal Ross' senior season. Bandit the kid is on record stating he didnt tell the coaching staff till after the season about that injury in 2014 he said so. He only caught like 11 passes and stated that he was 75% out of his own mouth. It was worse than him actually missing games because he held the team back by not allowing a healthy starter in there. Ross didn't always see the injuries as a gift. He suffered his first injury against Illinois in the third game of the 2014 season, tearing his meniscus in his right knee. He also needed microfracture surgery after the season. Yet Ross never let on that he was hurt. "It was a kickoff return," Ross said. "Just got rolled up on pretty good. And I felt something in my knee, but I didn't think nothing of it. My knee swelled up after the game. And it never really went down. But I was worried if I said something, I probably would have to sit out for the rest of the season." Ross had caught a touchdown in each of the Huskies' first three games. He missed the following week, and then played five straight weeks before the knee caught up to him. He caught only 11 passes combined in those games, and now says he wasn't anymore than 75 percent of his best self. "There were days when my leg was so stiff I couldn't run," Ross said, "night games where it was harder for me to get warmer because I had that swelling in my knee. The swelling did not go down at all. There was no chance of the swelling going down. The doctor ended up telling me after I got the MRI after the season, I waited so long, [the knee] started to heal itself. I don't know if that was good or bad." Edited April 10, 2017 by Bill_with_it
GunnerBill Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 Very few have him top 10 now either. He has always been a first rounder in most mocks.
Kirby Jackson Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 Show me any mock draft prior to the combine that had this dude top 10 heck first round. Here you go: http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/mock-drafts/chad-reuter/330602 http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/mock-drafts/charley-casserly/335601 http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/mock-drafts/bucky-brooks/330750 That is the first and only place that I checked. I am sure that you will find a lot more. Keep bringing the hot takes!!
thebandit27 Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 Bandit the kid is on record stating he didnt tell the coaching staff till after the season about that injury in 2014 he said so. He only caught like 11 passes and stated that he was 75% out of his own mouth. It was worse than him actually missing games because he held the team back by not allowing a healthy starter in there. Ross didn't always see the injuries as a gift. He suffered his first injury against Illinois in the third game of the 2014 season, tearing his meniscus in his right knee. He also needed microfracture surgery after the season. Yet Ross never let on that he was hurt. "It was a kickoff return," Ross said. "Just got rolled up on pretty good. And I felt something in my knee, but I didn't think nothing of it. My knee swelled up after the game. And it never really went down. But I was worried if I said something, I probably would have to sit out for the rest of the season." Ross had caught a touchdown in each of the Huskies' first three games. He missed the following week, and then played five straight weeks before the knee caught up to him. He caught only 11 passes combined in those games, and now says he wasn't anymore than 75 percent of his best self. "There were days when my leg was so stiff I couldn't run," Ross said, "night games where it was harder for me to get warmer because I had that swelling in my knee. The swelling did not go down at all. There was no chance of the swelling going down. The doctor ended up telling me after I got the MRI after the season, I waited so long, [the knee] started to heal itself. I don't know if that was good or bad." This in absolutely no way supports the assertion that he missed more time than he played, or that he missed any time save for 2015. He played the entirety of the 2014 season, and even had 2 kick return TDs that came after the injury. I don't say this to ruffle feathers: it seems like you aren't really sure what point you're making. From an onlooker's perspective, it appears that you're trying to say that you have concerns with his durability because of the knee (and now the labrum). That's fine; salient in fact. My entire point was that it shouldn't be over-stated, and that his productivity shouldn't be under-stated.
Bill_with_it Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 Nobody had him top-10 pre-combine; pretty much everyone has said that. As for 1st round, well, here's one from Daniel Jeremiah--a career scout--that had him at 18 overall to Tennessee: http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/mock-drafts/daniel-jeremiah/335600 Nice find, I was wrong. I doubt you find more that have him in the first dont prior to the combine.
thebandit27 Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 Nice find, I was wrong. I doubt you find more that have him in the first dont prior to the combine. Here you go: http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/mock-drafts/chad-reuter/330602 http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/mock-drafts/charley-casserly/335601 http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/mock-drafts/bucky-brooks/330750 That is the first and only place that I checked. I am sure that you will find a lot more. Keep bringing the hot takes!!
GunnerBill Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 Add Matt Miller too. Had him at #30 to Pittsburgh (would link but we can't link to Bleacher Report). My mock which is available on here from before the Combine had him #27 to Kansas City, for what it is worth.
BuffaloHokie13 Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 Nice find, I was wrong. I doubt you find more that have him in the first dont prior to the combine. Todd McShay had him going in the 1st to Tennessee all the way back in December.
GunnerBill Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 Todd McShay had him going in the 1st to Tennessee all the way back in December. Okay.... okay... but apart from all the NFL Network guys, the top NFL writer at Bleacher report, one of the big two at ESPN and some of the excellent amateur mockers (hey someone has to give me some love.... may as well be me) on this site........ NOBODY had Ross in the 1st before the combine. Reminds me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvPbj9NX0zc
Augie Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 Okay.... okay... but apart from all the NFL Network guys, the top NFL writer at Bleacher report, one of the big two at ESPN and some of the excellent amateur mockers (hey someone has to give me some love.... may as well be me) on this site........ NOBODY had Ross in the 1st before the combine. Reminds me of this: Yeah, but aside from that?
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