Wayne Cubed Posted March 14, 2017 Posted March 14, 2017 Dude, it doesn't matter if they would or wouldn't have. There's no reason not to take advantage if someone ends up wanting him that bad. We have to pay the same amount to keep him either way. No the Bills don't have to pay the same amount anyways. Obviously you aren't understanding that the Bills could use the RFA tender to sign Groy for 2 years, not 1. And he's a backup C/G, you sign him to a 2nd round tender his camp believes he's a starter and therefore negotiates as such. It hasn't been determined yet, if he is in fact a starter. The Bills are unlikely to cut Wood this offseason considering his $4.3m dead cap hit. So you'd be paying Groy $2.6m to be a backup for '17.
Doc Posted March 14, 2017 Posted March 14, 2017 That's almost exactly what the second round tender value is. Do you guys even know the basics of what you're trying to debate? I don't give a **** about Groy. I give a **** about our GM making the same mistake two years in a row after getting burned so badly the first time. Clearly, this year isn't as bad, but we shouldn't even be in this situation again. The 2nd round tender is $2.746M. The Bills would have had him for one year and then he would have been an UFA. The offer he got from the Rams is 2-years and $5M. That's $2.5M for this year, plus the same amount for next year. So not only did they save about $250K, they also have him for another year instead of losing him to FA for possibly much more if he plays well again.
BuffaloRebound Posted March 14, 2017 Posted March 14, 2017 This is a win by Whaley anyway you look at it. Player founds out his true value, and you get him for 2 years not 1 at what would've been a round 2 tender
MPT Posted March 14, 2017 Posted March 14, 2017 No the Bills don't have to pay the same amount anyways. Obviously you aren't understanding that the Bills could use the RFA tender to sign Groy for 2 years, not 1. And he's a backup C/G, you sign him to a 2nd round tender his camp believes he's a starter and therefore negotiates as such. It hasn't been determined yet, if he is in fact a starter. The Bills are unlikely to cut Wood this offseason considering his $4.3m dead cap hit. So you'd be paying Groy $2.6m to be a backup for '17. Which we'll be doing anyway if we decide to keep him. And if we don't want to pay that, we get nothing instead of a 2nd round pick. I realize Wood's cap hit is prohibitive to paying Groy more than a typical backup, but the odds of Groy becoming a starter (again) in the next two years are too good to pay him as a typical backup.
34-78-83 Posted March 14, 2017 Posted March 14, 2017 How did Groy play in the final game vs the Jets, when the Jets were facing a non-weird and mostly pocket qb? My recollection is not well, and that might be a sign that playing in front of a qb like Taylor masked the reasons why he went undrafted. My memory might be faulty, however. You are correct, good mention. While Groy is an above average run blocker, he is not a good pass protector, which was masked by our Qb's mobility.
Wayne Cubed Posted March 14, 2017 Posted March 14, 2017 Which we'll be doing anyway if we decide to keep him. And if we don't want to pay that, we get nothing instead of a 2nd round pick. I realize Wood's cap hit is prohibitive to paying Groy more than a typical backup, but the odds of Groy becoming a starter (again) in the next two years are too good to pay him as a typical backup. Well actually if the Bills do decide to match they'll pay him as a backup for '17 AND get him for '18 to be a starter, if the Bills let Woods' contract run out, at backup G/C money. Do you not understand that? In your scenario the Bills only get his services for '17, as a backup.
BADOLBILZ Posted March 14, 2017 Posted March 14, 2017 How did Groy play in the final game vs the Jets, when the Jets were facing a non-weird and mostly pocket qb? My recollection is not well, and that might be a sign that playing in front of a qb like Taylor masked the reasons why he went undrafted. My memory might be faulty, however. The same point can be made wrt Eric Wood........he was pretty lousy in 2013 and 2014.....even he thought he was going to get cut.......then Tyrod appears and.....whaddya' know, he looks decent again. A couple other things: 1) Patrick Lewis was the starting center for a Seattle team that went on a strong late season run in 2015......that seemed like a good pickup at the time.......so perhaps Groy doesn't get matched? 2) If he is cut then it's possible that the Rams will pursue Eric Wood.......remember when Buddy Nix claimed that he got Dallas to cut Scott Chandler by trying to claim Martin Rucker? I hope they retain Groy.......I like his size and I think he has more upside than Wood at this point. Regardless........this is still not a good pass blocking OL........they are propped up greatly by the presence of Taylor.
GG Posted March 14, 2017 Posted March 14, 2017 You are correct, good mention. While Groy is an above average run blocker, he is not a good pass protector, which was masked by our Qb's mobility. Watch the tape of that game. He more than held his own in passing downs against the very good Jets interior DLs
Bill from NYC Posted March 14, 2017 Posted March 14, 2017 You are correct, good mention. While Groy is an above average run blocker, he is not a good pass protector, which was masked by our Qb's mobility. I say the same thing about Miller. I read here a while ago that someone called him the most improved player or something of the sort. I don't think Miller is good at all against the pass. He's only 6'2" and a little light in the ass imo.
JMF2006 Posted March 14, 2017 Posted March 14, 2017 All the Bills have to do is match it and his rights are retained. People say Whaley was dumb for not tagging him higher. Well just maybe they talked with Groy and his agent and they wanted X amount of $$ long term so the Bills said ok we will RFA tag you and you can check out the market and if its a great deal your free but if its affordable we will match it. We don't know we can only assume and you know what happens when you assume;)
thebandit27 Posted March 14, 2017 Posted March 14, 2017 The same point can be made wrt Eric Wood........he was pretty lousy in 2013 and 2014.....even he thought he was going to get cut.......then Tyrod appears and.....whaddya' know, he looks decent again. A couple other things: 1) Patrick Lewis was the starting center for a Seattle team that went on a strong late season run in 2015......that seemed like a good pickup at the time.......so perhaps Groy doesn't get matched? 2) If he is cut then it's possible that the Rams will pursue Eric Wood.......remember when Buddy Nix claimed that he got Dallas to cut Scott Chandler by trying to claim Martin Rucker? I hope they retain Groy.......I like his size and I think he has more upside than Wood at this point. Regardless........this is still not a good pass blocking OL........they are propped up greatly by the presence of Taylor. I think there's a bit of give/take with Taylor at QB. He's very good at avoiding pressure; at the same time, he creates a good number of bad situations for himself with shoddy movement habits in the pocket. I don't know that the bad quite matches the good; merely an observation on part.
Bill_with_it Posted March 14, 2017 Posted March 14, 2017 Whaley doesn't learnNope like a bad dream that never ends.
2020 Our Year For Sure Posted March 14, 2017 Posted March 14, 2017 Kroman and Romer had way more to do with Wood'a improvement than Tyrod imo
boyst Posted March 14, 2017 Posted March 14, 2017 Ugh. Just keep him as insurance. He is better going forward than wood.
Pirate Angel Posted March 14, 2017 Posted March 14, 2017 I'd like to keep him and release wood or maybe trade him for a RT
The Jokeman Posted March 14, 2017 Posted March 14, 2017 That's almost exactly what the second round tender value is. Do you guys even know the basics of what you're trying to debate? I don't give a **** about Groy. I give a **** about our GM making the same mistake two years in a row after getting burned so badly the first time. Clearly, this year isn't as bad, but we shouldn't even be in this situation again. Odds are the Rams or whomever wouldn't have offered Groy such a lucrative contract if it meant giving up a 2nd Round pick.
boyst Posted March 14, 2017 Posted March 14, 2017 I'd like to keep him and release wood or maybe trade him for a RTwood is too costly to cut. Cap hit of dead $ too big. Wood is trade bait or starts. His mobility may finally suffer. As a pulling center that's his only strong asset run blocking. He is better than groy pass blocking.
BADOLBILZ Posted March 14, 2017 Posted March 14, 2017 I think there's a bit of give/take with Taylor at QB. He's very good at avoiding pressure; at the same time, he creates a good number of bad situations for himself with shoddy movement habits in the pocket. I don't know that the bad quite matches the good; merely an observation on part. Oh I agree, he caused plenty of sacks by bailing much too soon and that is the confusing part for many........the fact that Taylor takes a lot of statistical sacks. I think close to half of those are actually a result of Taylor either leaving the pocket and/or taking 4+ seconds to throw..........not really natural, pass rusher or blitz caused sacks.......nor the awful kind that result in turnovers or QB injuries. And those sacks are more than worth it because of the big plays that ALSO happen when those same chances are taken. They are really not much different than McCoy's TFL's but statistically more worthwhile (Taylor has a higher ypa rushing and, of course passing the last two seasons than McCoy or MG's ypa rushing). I think you insert a more traditional pocket passer......and if they aren't getting the ball out at a near top-o-the-league quickness rate......... they get sacked and pressured even MORE often with this poor pass blocking group(and the run game gets greatly damaged as well).......AND the sacks they'd be suffering aren't the gentle kind like turtling after a failed scramble or stepping out of bounds 1 yard behind the LOS........they are jarring in-pocket hits and strip sack causing types that change games.
Formerly Allan in MD Posted March 14, 2017 Posted March 14, 2017 Keeping Wood might be a big gamble. Keeping Wood might be a big gamble. Age, injuries.
MPT Posted March 14, 2017 Posted March 14, 2017 Odds are the Rams or whomever wouldn't have offered Groy such a lucrative contract if it meant giving up a 2nd Round pick. Yeah, a few other people have used this argument as well. Except it doesn't hold any water. If teams don't want to give up a pick, fine: we keep him for the same salary. But if there's a chance a team holds him in high enough regard, we get a 2nd round pick. You know what the odds are of us getting anything in return for him if we don't use that tag? Zero. So, the "odds are" literally infinitely better for us if we do use the tag.
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