Tom Brady-The Greatest of His Era, Not All-Time

[bdutton]

Brady is the greatest of all time. No way to see it any other way unless you are blinded by petty homerism.

 

He's won more superbowls than any other QB in history. Just because the modern era rules made it easier on a QB doesn't make it any easier to beat the other 31 teams playing by the same rules.

[Mr. WEO]

How many rings would Brady have if McCarthy had been his coach this whole time?

 

How many ring would Belichivk have if Rodgers had been his QB?

 

A number less than 5...

[Alphadawg7]

You're cherry picking and ignoring the biggest factor of all - Brady played under the greatest coach of all time.

 

Cherry Picking? HUH...have you never heard of Bill Walsh? Only considered one of the best ever and many still believe the best ever who revolutionized and changed football forever with his West Coast offense.

 

Even if you want to say BB is #1, Walsh would still be in consideration for #1 and easily be top candidate for #2...So the argument would be that Brady had a slight edge at HC while Montana played with the GOAT WR, revolutionary RB's, Taylor, Brent, Clark, and a great OL his whole career and mostly in fair weather while Brady won 5 SBs with Brown, Branch, Edelman, Hogan and played 16 years in crap weather outdoor both at home and at 2 divisional rivals.

 

LMAO, not even a comparison.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Alphadawg7

[Success]

 

Cherry Picking? HUH...have you never heard of Bill Walsh? Only considered one of the best ever and many still believe the best ever who revolutionized and changed football forever with his West Coast offense.

 

Even if you want to say BB is #1, Walsh would still be in consideration for #1 and easily be top candidate for #2...So the argument would be that Brady had a slight edge at HC while Montana played with the GOAT WR, revolutionary RB's, Taylor, Brent, Clark, and a great OL his whole career where Brady won 5 SBs with Brown, Branch, Edelman, Hogan. LMAO, not even a comparison.

Walsh is a good counter - but he really isn't BB. Maybe as a coach he is close, but not as gm. Just look at this offseason. The Pats are practically guaranteed a ring, even if Brady declines.

[row_33]

It is hard to definitively compare athletes through 4 to 7 decades of watching them play.

[Alphadawg7]

Walsh is a good counter - but he really isn't BB. Maybe as a coach he is close, but not as gm. Just look at this offseason. The Pats are practically guaranteed a ring, even if Brady declines.

 

Except for the fact that the 49er rosters of the Montana era were substantially more talented than any of the Pats SB teams on both sides of the ball...including 3 of the greatest to ever play their respective positions in Montana, Lott, and Rice. Not to mention other HOF players, revolutionary players, and very talented guys at many of the key positions. I grew up in Nor Cal during that ERA, those rosters were stacked.

[Matt_In_NH]

 

And Walsh isnt in the consideration for GOAT HC himself and at the very least top 3?

 

Come on man, you can't remotely compare the talent Brady has had at WR/TE/RB compared to what Montana had and Manning had. Its not even close. Montana had a revolutionary RB in Craig, again in Waters, GOAT at WR, uber talent around them like Taylor, Brent, Clark, etc. Not to mention, a top notch OL most his career and played in a system that changed Football forever.

 

Manning had Harrisson, Wayne, Clark, EDGE, D. Thomas, J. Thomas, Welker in his SB wins.

 

In the 5 SB rings, Brady had Branch (who bombed outside NE and had to crawl back to get a job again), Brown, Edelman, Hogan, White. The only SB win he had an Elite talent was 2 years ago with Gronk against Seattle.

 

Manning and Montana played with HOF weapons almost their whole careers (Manning did his entire career, Montana did most his career as Rice came a couple years after Montana). Brady played with unheralded castoffs from other teams and made them HIGHLY productive. MASSIVE difference in talent.

 

And I am sorry, but you are very misguided on the advantage thing with the cold weather. I do agree that Brady has an advantage in terms of winning or losing at home because he is better than opposing teams coming in at playing in the cold. That is true. But what Brady accomplishes on an individual and statistical level, the cold is NOT an advantage over being able to throw in a dome or good weather stadium. No QB will perform BETTER in bad weather than good weather, so Manning had a clear advantage along with Montana of being able to pay in substantially better conditions when it comes down to QB production and personal accomplishments.

 

Brady has done more with less and in worse playing conditions than both Montana and Manning.

The fact you list Welker as a WR Manning had is kind of ridiculous, He was not even on the Broncos when they won the SB and you would never even have mentioned him if not for what he did with Brady.

 

I think you are valuing "HOF" receivers to be a lot more important than they actually are. I see that all the time on these forums where it seems like the only position people want good players at is WR and if you dont have that you dont have a chance, not true. The Pats show you that. Jerry Rice is the exception, he was remarkable. While Harrison and Wayne are HOF worthy, that is a product of Manning, I bet they dont make the HOF if they played somewhere else, like say Buffalo. The Pats have a different offensive philosophy that does not favor having one or two great WR's. In all of Brady's Super Bowls he had talent to throw to.

 

Again, just to restate, I think Brady has to be favored over Manning in this debate, I just think it is closer than you obviously feel.

[Alphadawg7]

The fact you list Welker as a WR Manning had is kind of ridiculous, He was not even on the Broncos when they won the SB and you would never even have mentioned him if not for what he did with Brady.

 

I think you are valuing "HOF" receivers to be a lot more important than they actually are. I see that all the time on these forums where it seems like the only position people want good players at is WR and if you dont have that you dont have a chance, not true. The Pats show you that. Jerry Rice is the exception, he was remarkable. While Harrison and Wayne are HOF worthy, that is a product of Manning, I bet they dont make the HOF if they played somewhere else, like say Buffalo. The Pats have a different offensive philosophy that does not favor having one or two great WR's. In all of Brady's Super Bowls he had talent to throw to.

 

Again, just to restate, I think Brady has to be favored over Manning in this debate, I just think it is closer than you obviously feel.

 

Lol, ok take Welker out of Manning...his ensemble of talent still CRUSHES Brady's weapons. And that last year didn't matter, as Manning didn't win the SB, the Broncos team and D did as Manning was terrible all year and in the SB. They won inspite of Manning that year who almost fully lost his job to Trevor.

 

And come on man, you can't tell me receiving weapons are not important. Someone like Brady can take mediocre guys and produce great results...but name another QB in history who has done that like Brady and won so much with that kind of talent? Nobody can name one as its never happened before, hence why Brady is the GOAT. He has accomplished so much more than Manning with lesser talent around him.

 

If Brady had Harrison and Wayne for as long as Manning did, he would have more than 5 SB rings.

 

Again, I can live with the Montana argument as he was that good, even though I do feel Brady has taken over the GOAT title, but its a close argument. But Manning isn't even close to those 2 IMO. We are talking about a guy who entered the playoffs as the #1 seed and was eliminated NINE times in the first playoff game.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Alphadawg7

[Success]

 

Except for the fact that the 49er rosters of the Montana era were substantially more talented than any of the Pats SB teams on both sides of the ball...including 3 of the greatest to ever play their respective positions in Montana, Lott, and Rice. Not to mention other HOF players, revolutionary players, and very talented guys at many of the key positions. I grew up in Nor Cal during that ERA, those rosters were stacked.

Montana came pretty close to 5 also.

 

I saw both play. I still have Brady as the goat. I just think rings is a flawed measure.

[Alphadawg7]

Montana came pretty close to 5 also.

 

I saw both play. I still have Brady as the goat. I just think rings is a flawed measure.

 

Agreed...Rings is a flawed measure, I am not saying Brady is the greatest because of rings alone. I see Brady as the GOAT because he not only has more rings, but because he got them playing with less talent and in tougher conditions. If he wins the SB again next year, and they are a favorite going in, it will be the SECOND time he has lead a team to a SB win in 3 out of 4 years and will have played in a SB in 8 out of his 16 seasons, which is 1 every 2 years (it will be his 17th season, but remember he missed an entire season with a knee injury, so he's only played on the field 15 seasons).

 

Speaking of injury, he came back from a devastating knee injury in his 30's to play in 4 more SB's and win 3 of them.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Alphadawg7

[Dragonborn10]

Ah the old it was a tougher game then argument. Fouts, Marino, and Aikman never moved in the pocket either and did just fine in the same era. Brady is the best of all time in a time when QB is more important than ever. Kelly threw 25 times a game. The Bills won an AFC Championship scoring 10 points. That is nearly impossible now.

Brady is the best of all timelse slightly edging out Montana. I said the opposite a year ago but there is no denying it any longer.

[Success]

 

Agreed...Rings is a flawed measure, I am not saying Brady is the greatest because of rings alone. I see Brady as the GOAT because he not only has more rings, but because he got them playing with less talent and in tougher conditions. If he wins the SB again next year, and they are a favorite going in, it will be the SECOND time he has lead a team to a SB win in 3 out of 4 years and will have played in a SB in 8 out of his 16 seasons, which is 1 every 2 years (it will be his 17th season, but remember he missed an entire season with a knee injury, so he's only played on the field 15 seasons).

 

Speaking of injury, he came back from a devastating knee injury in his 30's to play in 4 more SB's and win 3 of them.

Yeah, I agree overall. Montana was as clutch, and really was Joe Cool. I love that John Candy story from the Super Bowl.

 

But Brady has a different quality. Obviously clutch, but more like the terminator. Scarier. He gets that look in his eye - just hates losing with a passion.

 

I watched the SB with some non-Bills fans who don't see the Pats as much, and they were all celebrating at 28-3. But I knew better.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Success

[Guest K-GunJimKelly12]

I was just watching the greatest Niners of all-time on NFL Network, and number 3 was Ronnie Lott. Which made me think of how much easier it is to complete a pass today than is was 20-30 years ago. I'm sorry there are waaaaaaaaaay too many people in this thread who just don't understand how much the rule changes have helped the offense in the NFL and have help QB's increase longevity.

[Matt_In_NH]

 

Lol, ok take Welker out of Manning...his ensemble of talent still CRUSHES Brady's weapons. And that last year didn't matter, as Manning didn't win the SB, the Broncos team and D did as Manning was terrible all year and in the SB. They won inspite of Manning that year who almost fully lost his job to Trevor.

 

And come on man, you can't tell me receiving weapons are not important. Someone like Brady can take mediocre guys and produce great results...but name another QB in history who has done that like Brady and won so much with that kind of talent? Nobody can name one as its never happened before, hence why Brady is the GOAT. He has accomplished so much more than Manning with lesser talent around him.

 

If Brady had Harrison and Wayne for as long as Manning did, he would have more than 5 SB rings.

 

Again, I can live with the Montana argument as he was that good, even though I do feel Brady has taken over the GOAT title, but its a close argument. But Manning isn't even close to those 2 IMO. We are talking about a guy who entered the playoffs as the #1 seed and was eliminated NINE times in the first playoff game.

 

 

Here is what Welker did, almost all of it with Brady, you tried and put him in as Mannings receiver and it was not a mistake. If that does not show how one side you are I dont know what would. Here are his NFL records.

 

NFL records[edit]

• Most seasons with 100+ receptions: 5^[30]
• Most seasons with 105+ receptions: 5
• Most seasons with 110+ receptions: 5
• Most seasons with 115+ receptions: 3
• Most seasons with 120+ receptions: 2 (tied with Cris Carter)
• Most consecutive seasons with 110 receptions: 3
• Most games with 10+ receptions: 18 (tied with Andre Johnson)
• Most games with 11+ receptions: 12 (tied with Marvin Harrison)
• Most games with 12+ receptions: 9
• Most games with 13+ receptions: 5
• Most games with 15+ receptions: 2 (tied with Jason Witten and Brandon Marshall)
• Most games with 10+ receptions in a season: 7 (tied with Andre Johnson)
• Fastest receiver to have 500 catches with one team (New England Patriots) (70 games)
• Longest touchdown reception: 99 (2011 vs Miami Dolphins) (tied with 12 others)
• Most receptions of any undrafted free agent in NFL history: 903
• Most career punt returns without a touchdown: 264
• Most career punt return yards without a touchdown: 2,584

[BaaadThingsMan]

!@#$ *marsha brady

[row_33]

I was just watching the greatest Niners of all-time on NFL Network, and number 3 was Ronnie Lott. Which made me think of how much easier it is to complete a pass today than is was 20-30 years ago. I'm sorry there are waaaaaaaaaay too many people in this thread who just don't understand how much the rule changes have helped the offense in the NFL and have help QB's increase longevity.

Boasting about Joe Montana to young fans is like the old timers going on about Sammy Baugh and Bronco Nagurski in the 1970s...

[vorpma]

Brady is the greatest of all time. No way to see it any other way unless you are blinded by petty homerism.

 

He's won more superbowls than any other QB in history. Just because the modern era rules made it easier on a QB doesn't make it any easier to beat the other 31 teams playing by the same rules.

That is the bottom line my friend; same with BB!

Boasting about Joe Montana to young fans is like the old timers going on about Sammy Baugh and Bronco Nagurski in the 1970s...

OK, so what! It is what it is and the Pats, including Brady and Belichek have a dynasty!

Yeah, I agree overall. Montana was as clutch, and really was Joe Cool. I love that John Candy story from the Super Bowl.

 

But Brady has a different quality. Obviously clutch, but more like the terminator. Scarier. He gets that look in his eye - just hates losing with a passion.

 

I watched the SB with some non-Bills fans who don't see the Pats as much, and they were all celebrating at 28-3. But I knew better.

Thanks for the reality check!

K-GunJimKelly12 GREAT POST!

[Alphadawg7]

 

 

 

Here is what Welker did, almost all of it with Brady, you tried and put him in as Mannings receiver and it was not a mistake. If that does not show how one side you are I dont know what would. Here are his NFL records.

 

NFL records[edit]

• Most seasons with 100+ receptions: 5^[30]
• Most seasons with 105+ receptions: 5
• Most seasons with 110+ receptions: 5
• Most seasons with 115+ receptions: 3
• Most seasons with 120+ receptions: 2 (tied with Cris Carter)
• Most consecutive seasons with 110 receptions: 3
• Most games with 10+ receptions: 18 (tied with Andre Johnson)
• Most games with 11+ receptions: 12 (tied with Marvin Harrison)
• Most games with 12+ receptions: 9
• Most games with 13+ receptions: 5
• Most games with 15+ receptions: 2 (tied with Jason Witten and Brandon Marshall)
• Most games with 10+ receptions in a season: 7 (tied with Andre Johnson)
• Fastest receiver to have 500 catches with one team (New England Patriots) (70 games)
• Longest touchdown reception: 99 (2011 vs Miami Dolphins) (tied with 12 others)
• Most receptions of any undrafted free agent in NFL history: 903
• Most career punt returns without a touchdown: 264
• Most career punt return yards without a touchdown: 2,584

 

 

Ok, you are new around here, but clearly fitting right in with not reading the posts before you respond. How many Super Bowls did Welker win with Brady? Zero

 

Hence why he was left off Brady's weapons when discussing his 5 SB rings. I mistakenly thought Welker was still on the roster when Peyton won his last SB 2 years ago, so Welker should not have been on his list either. Turns out Welker is 0-3 in SB's.

 

I very clearly stated in Brady's 5 wins when discussing the talent he had when he WON 5 rings...as winning the SB is what teams play for and what Brady has done more than Montana and Manning...and if Brady wins again next year, he will have as many as them combined not to mention would have appeared in 8 SB's in 16 seasons for a 1 in every 2 years rate.

Edited March 16, 2017 by Alphadawg7

[Matt_In_NH]

 

Ok, you are new around here, but clearly fitting right in with not reading the posts before you respond. How many Super Bowls did Welker win with Brady? Zero

 

Hence why he was left off Brady's weapons when discussing his 5 SB rings. I mistakenly thought Welker was still on the roster when Peyton won his last SB 2 years ago, so Welker should not have been on his list either. Turns out Welker is 0-3 in SB's.

 

I very clearly stated in Brady's 5 wins when discussing the talent he had when he WON 5 rings...as winning the SB is what teams play for and what Brady has done more than Montana and Manning...and if Brady wins again next year, he will have as many as them combined not to mention would have appeared in 8 SB's in 16 seasons for a 1 in every 2 years rate.

 

I get it, but only looking at who the WR's/TE's are in the SB's won is kind of narrow sighted since winning a SB can come down to one play here or there. Both of these guys have had extended success and opening things up to their careers is a better way of comparing.

 

7 SB's is ridiculous in a good way, no argument from me, when I look at the playoff record, AFC Championship and SB appearances, it seems impossible but we know it is true. You made the argument that other than the QB, the important factors are who the WR's are and what weather do they play in as important factors, both lean toward Brady, I will just agree that Peyton has had better WR's. You also say Brady has done more with less, and maybe you are just talking WR's again but that is where I disagree. You have left off some important factors such as coaching, OL, defense, special teams.

 

All told, which career would you rather have, play for Belicheck the whole time with the great defenses, running game discipline or play for 5 coaches with lackluster defenses and OL most of the time? Brady has done more with more when you look at the whole picture. WR's are not that important when it comes to winning super bowls, here is a list of some of the best over the last 10-15 years, TO, Moss, Bruce, S Smith, Harrison, Fitzgerald, Wayne, A Johnson, Boldin, Holt, J Jones, A Brown, B Marshall, I think among those, you have 4 SB wins.

 

Comparing Brady and Montana is a harder thing to do because of the rule changes that greatly favor QB play in game outcomes and career longevity. However, no matter what generation, 7 SB's will win if that is your measuring stick.

Edited March 16, 2017 by mattynh

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

Tom Brady uses vagisil.