billspro Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 (edited) Yeah...a UDFA CB will blow up the 17 years of domination......they got rid of Jones, Collins, Milloy, Revis, Moss, Wilfork etc...but is this the move that will doom them.... Well they will obviously still be a good team. I just think Gilmore will be a downgrade on their defence. Butler played great for them last year. Plus that contract is brutal. Edited March 21, 2017 by billspro
Iron Maiden Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 Well they will obviously still be a good team. I just think Gilmore will be a downgrade on their defence. Butler played great for them last year. Plus that contract is brutal. I wish I could believe it buddy....but after all those years, I can't help to remind myself that unfortunately, Belichick always has a plan.....from the outside , it sometimes looks like he's losing his mind ( getting of Collins was a shock ! ) but it works more often than not.....
billspro Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 I wish I could believe it buddy....but after all those years, I can't help to remind myself that unfortunately, Belichick always has a plan.....from the outside , it sometimes looks like he's losing his mind ( getting of Collins was a shock ! ) but it works more often than not..... I agree, they are going to be the favourite to win the Super Bowl this year (by a large margin). I hope I get to see us win an AFCE division once before Brady retires.
Boatdrinks Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 I wish I could believe it buddy....but after all those years, I can't help to remind myself that unfortunately, Belichick always has a plan.....from the outside , it sometimes looks like he's losing his mind ( getting of Collins was a shock ! ) but it works more often than not..... Out of curiosity, are you a Bills fan or a Pats fan? Not saying I think the Butler whatever will have any effect on anything( it won't) , just a lot of closet Pats love on this wall lately. I agree, they are going to be the favourite to win the Super Bowl this year (by a large margin). I hope I get to see us win an AFCE division once before Brady retires. This will not happen
aristocrat Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 B.B. Will coach up Gilmore like he does with so many corners. He will then probably use the first to get a nice player with a lower cap hit and control for years to come. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Iron Maiden Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 Out of curiosity, are you a Bills fan or a Pats fan? Not saying I think the Butler whatever will have any effect on anything( it won't) , just a lot of closet Pats love on this wall lately. This will not happen Bills fans since '72.....Always will be.....I am also a realist...until Brady and BB retire, they'll be the top dog....and losing Butler, wouldn't change that....
cba fan Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 (edited) Latest talk is Saints have a deal in place and want to negotiate with Pats on compensation. That they wish to give Pats the later 1st rounder (#32)Pats had just given them for Cooks. Internet says they can not negotiate until Offer sheet is signed. This is stupid. Why would Pats then negotiate for less compensation when they automatically get Saints #11 pick if they do not match the offer sheet? Saints lose all leverage once they get Butler to sign offer sheet and they submit to league. All leverage shifts to Pats once offer sheet is signed and we all know how that goes. These internet sites are either inaccurate or crazy. http://blog.masslive.com/patriots/2017/03/patriots_could_still_trade_mal.html If this report is true this sounds like cheating the procedure if Pats and Saints have a secret agreement that would effectively change(reduce) the compensation for 1st round tender. NFLPA would and should take a dim view of this as it lessens players value. IE: if Pats had put a 2nd or 3rd round tender on Butler he would already be a Saint at higher salary or Pats would match. This negotiation period was really intended for an ex like Groy signing offer sheet with Chargers for 5th round compensation. After offer sheet was signed teams had 5 days to talk and Chargers could have improved the compensation in return for Bills agreeing to not match. Like also agreeing to swap positions in a later round or something small as not likely anyone was giving up a 4th rounder for Groy. Edited March 21, 2017 by cba fan
Returntoglory Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 Bills fans since '72.....Always will be.....I am also a realist...until Brady and BB retire, they'll be the top dog....and losing Butler, wouldn't change that.... Bingo
Eric Moulds on my A** Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 Bingo I'm kinda hoping they keep him. A lil locker room turmoil in New England would be a nice change for ol Buffalo.
Doc Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 Latest talk is Saints have a deal in place and want to negotiate with Pats on compensation. That they wish to give Pats the later 1st rounder (#32)Pats had just given them for Cooks. Internet says they can not negotiate until Offer sheet is signed. This is stupid. Why would Pats then negotiate for less compensation when they automatically get Saints #11 pick if they do not match the offer sheet? Saints lose all leverage once they get Butler to sign offer sheet and they submit to league. All leverage shifts to Pats once offer sheet is signed and we all know how that goes. These internet sites are either inaccurate or crazy. http://blog.masslive.com/patriots/2017/03/patriots_could_still_trade_mal.html If this report is true this sounds like cheating the procedure if Pats and Saints have a secret agreement that would effectively change(reduce) the compensation for 1st round tender. NFLPA would and should take a dim view of this as it lessens players value. IE: if Pats had put a 2nd or 3rd round tender on Butler he would already be a Saint at higher salary or Pats would match. This negotiation period was really intended for an ex like Groy signing offer sheet with Chargers for 5th round compensation. After offer sheet was signed teams had 5 days to talk and Chargers could have improved the compensation in return for Bills agreeing to not match. Like also agreeing to swap positions in a later round or something small as not likely anyone was giving up a 4th rounder for Groy. Why is it cheating? The Cheaters can decide what they want to receive for Butler.
cba fan Posted March 22, 2017 Posted March 22, 2017 Why is it cheating? The Cheaters can decide what they want to receive for Butler. Cheating because the first round tender would have been a lie. This reduced Butlers market value. If the two teams had a secret deal in place that is cheating also. This would be precedent setting and first time this has happened. NFLPA will be all over this if it happens the way it is portrayed. Why would a team agree to take less? If the offer sheet is signed and Pats do not match,WHY would Pats then listen to Saints calling them to offer less than the offer sheet signing requires Saints to give Pats? pick#11 It would be like Chargers signing Groy to offer sheet and then calling Bills and asking them to not match and accept a 7th round pick for Groy instead of the 5th rounder Bills are required to receive if they do not match. I don't think this is cba legal. Saints must be asking Cheats to sign Butler themselves and then trade him back to Saints for less than the #11 pick this year. Again this is not fair to Butler. Once Pats sign him they could refuse to trade him to Saints. They have lied to Butler already with Gilmore deal, why would Butler believe them now? Tell me why you do not think this is cheating?
ALF Posted March 22, 2017 Posted March 22, 2017 The #11 pick could draft a very good CB for rookie pay scale. I could see the Saints giving back the #32 for Butler. I don't see it as cheating if Butler wants out of NE , he takes the better offer, or wait another season to be UFA.
papazoid Posted March 22, 2017 Posted March 22, 2017 butler hasn't even signed his tender sheet with new England , let alone an offer sheet with new Orleans. it's butler's move......new England will not comment until he does one or the other......belichick has been overly sensitive to this same issue in the past. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/03/20/patriots-saints-supposedly-wont-talk-about-a-trade-for-malcolm-butler/
4merper4mer Posted March 22, 2017 Posted March 22, 2017 B.B. Will coach up Gilmore like he does with so many corners. He will then probably use the first to get a nice player with a lower cap hit and control for years to come. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Gilmore was uncoached by Rex. Unfortunately coaching up or no coaching up Gilmore will succeed day one.
cba fan Posted March 22, 2017 Posted March 22, 2017 (edited) butler hasn't even signed his tender sheet with new England , let alone an offer sheet with new Orleans. it's butler's move......new England will not comment until he does one or the other......belichick has been overly sensitive to this same issue in the past. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/03/20/patriots-saints-supposedly-wont-talk-about-a-trade-for-malcolm-butler/ That is why Butler is in a corner. After what they told him and then did opposite by signing Gilmore why would Butler believe them. If he signs the tender he is stuck with NE for 3.9 mil or about 1/3 his market value and Pats have been dicks in this case not talking about it and Bellycheat getting snarky. Although to be fair about it all he is subject to tender due to cba so his market value is not like a Gilmore UFA. Edited March 22, 2017 by cba fan
Doc Posted March 22, 2017 Posted March 22, 2017 Cheating because the first round tender would have been a lie. This reduced Butlers market value. If the two teams had a secret deal in place that is cheating also. This would be precedent setting and first time this has happened. NFLPA will be all over this if it happens the way it is portrayed. Why would a team agree to take less? If the offer sheet is signed and Pats do not match,WHY would Pats then listen to Saints calling them to offer less than the offer sheet signing requires Saints to give Pats? pick#11 It would be like Chargers signing Groy to offer sheet and then calling Bills and asking them to not match and accept a 7th round pick for Groy instead of the 5th rounder Bills are required to receive if they do not match. I don't think this is cba legal. Saints must be asking Cheats to sign Butler themselves and then trade him back to Saints for less than the #11 pick this year. Again this is not fair to Butler. Once Pats sign him they could refuse to trade him to Saints. They have lied to Butler already with Gilmore deal, why would Butler believe them now? Tell me why you do not think this is cheating? Why do you believe that the 1st round pick has to be the Saints' original one, and not the one they just got from the Cheaters? It's still a first round pick. And the Cheaters can either accept the deal or not.
Chris66 Posted March 22, 2017 Posted March 22, 2017 Butler is so much better than Gilmore, I think this will blow up on the Pats.Hes an rfa. How can it blow up. My take is NO does all the leg work of a contract. Most likely avg around 9 a year for 4 years and Pats simply match the contract. N.O. doesnt have the cap space to poison pill the contract.
cba fan Posted March 23, 2017 Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) Why do you believe that the 1st round pick has to be the Saints' original one, and not the one they just got from the Cheaters? It's still a first round pick. And the Cheaters can either accept the deal or not. Is anyone really paying attetion here.? Pats and Saints wanted to trade Butler for Cooks straight up, but since Butler had not signed his tender they could not include him. Pats instead gave Saints their 1st rnd pick #32,replacing Butler in the trade and establishing what they think Butler is worth. That is the pick the Pats want back. If it was as simple as you say in your estimation Saints can decide to give whatever 1st rounder they want like the lesser valued #32 1st rounder to Pats if they do not match, then Butler would have already have signed Saints offer sheet and Saints would have given it to Pats, and Pats would have announced they will not match and get the 32 pick. Done deal. So tell me how this works. Why do Saints get to decide, why can't Pats decide? see my logic? It has to be in cba that original team 1st rounder is what is in play here. for ex if Browns have 1st pick in a draft and also picks #29 30 31 and 32. Does this mean they can sign 4 players with 1st round tenders and ship off only the 29 30 31 and 32 for ea player? While keeping their original #1 pick? And who decides which pick goes to which team? It can only be original team pick in play. or as I just found out in the links below, if possible if you traded away your original pick previously and acquired a beter pick in 1st round NFL would likely allow you to use that pick to sign a 1st rnd offer sheet player. PS This is all I can find on this subject http://sports.stackexchange.com/questions/532/what-are-the-rules-for-nfl-restricted-free-agents-that-have-a-first-round-tender https://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/collective-bargaining-agreement-2011-2020.pdf article 9 sec 3 Edited March 23, 2017 by cba fan
Doc Posted March 23, 2017 Posted March 23, 2017 Is anyone really paying attetion here.? Pats and Saints wanted to trade Butler for Cooks straight up, but since Butler had not signed his tender they could not include him. Pats instead gave Saints their 1st rnd pick #32,replacing Butler in the trade and establishing what they think Butler is worth. That is the pick the Pats want back. If it was as simple as you say in your estimation Saints can decide to give whatever 1st rounder they want like the lesser valued #32 1st rounder to Pats if they do not match, then Butler would have already have signed Saints offer sheet and Saints would have given it to Pats, and Pats would have announced they will not match and get the 32 pick. Done deal. So tell me how this works. Why do Saints get to decide, why can't Pats decide? see my logic? It has to be in cba that original team 1st rounder is what is in play here. for ex if Browns have 1st pick in a draft and also picks #29 30 31 and 32. Does this mean they can sign 4 players with 1st round tenders and ship off only the 29 30 31 and 32 for ea player? While keeping their original #1 pick? And who decides which pick goes to which team? It can only be original team pick in play. or as I just found out in the links below, if possible if you traded away your original pick previously and acquired a beter pick in 1st round NFL would likely allow you to use that pick to sign a 1st rnd offer sheet player. PS This is all I can find on this subject http://sports.stackexchange.com/questions/532/what-are-the-rules-for-nfl-restricted-free-agents-that-have-a-first-round-tender https://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/collective-bargaining-agreement-2011-2020.pdf article 9 sec 3 If the Saints just outright signed Butler, I'm sure they'd have to give up their 11th overall/original pick. Nowhere have I disputed this. That they're not doing that tells me they don't want to part with it and they know they don't have to. You see, the Cheaters have franchised guys in the past (S TeBucky Jones to those same Saints and QB Matt Cassell to the Chefs) and traded them for less than 1st rounders. This situation is no different from those. Like in those situations, the Cheaters can choose to trade Butler for whatever they want. If no other team comes calling, they will either have to accept what the Saints are offering (which I have no doubt does not include the 11th overall pick) or keep a disgruntled player on the roster for the year (and then either watch him leave in FA next year, getting a 3rd round comp pick in return the following year, at best, or re-sign him for $13M+/year).
BrooklynBills Posted March 23, 2017 Posted March 23, 2017 Is anyone really paying attetion here.? Pats and Saints wanted to trade Butler for Cooks straight up, but since Butler had not signed his tender they could not include him. Pats instead gave Saints their 1st rnd pick #32,replacing Butler in the trade and establishing what they think Butler is worth. That is the pick the Pats want back. If it was as simple as you say in your estimation Saints can decide to give whatever 1st rounder they want like the lesser valued #32 1st rounder to Pats if they do not match, then Butler would have already have signed Saints offer sheet and Saints would have given it to Pats, and Pats would have announced they will not match and get the 32 pick. Done deal. So tell me how this works. Why do Saints get to decide, why can't Pats decide? see my logic? It has to be in cba that original team 1st rounder is what is in play here. for ex if Browns have 1st pick in a draft and also picks #29 30 31 and 32. Does this mean they can sign 4 players with 1st round tenders and ship off only the 29 30 31 and 32 for ea player? While keeping their original #1 pick? And who decides which pick goes to which team? It can only be original team pick in play. or as I just found out in the links below, if possible if you traded away your original pick previously and acquired a beter pick in 1st round NFL would likely allow you to use that pick to sign a 1st rnd offer sheet player. PS This is all I can find on this subject http://sports.stackexchange.com/questions/532/what-are-the-rules-for-nfl-restricted-free-agents-that-have-a-first-round-tender https://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/collective-bargaining-agreement-2011-2020.pdf article 9 sec 3 It's pretty simple. Saints want Butler but do not want to sign him to an offer sheet and give up 11 ovr(which would be an overpayment). They want to trade for him after he signs the RFA tendered contract so that they can then negotiate with him without giving up the 11th ovr. This works out for both the Saints and the player as NO gives up less compensation than 11th ovr and Butler can use his upcoming UFA status as leverage in his new contract. I'm sure the negotiations between NE and NO are going something like this: Saints: How much for Butler? Patriots: Just sign him to an offer sheet, we won't match. Saints: No Thanks. Patriots: ok, let's work out a trade. We'll allow you to work on a contract with him. It's all pretty fair.
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