Alaska Darin Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 I don't think many here would condone doing away with juvenile centers in favor of putting minors in a general population prison, but it seems that's what some are advocating. 258928[/snapback] You kill someone in cold blood, we remove your oxygen. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin in Va Beach Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 You kill someone in cold blood, we remove your oxygen. Period. 258941[/snapback] Sounds fair... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRC Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 I don't think anyone is arguing whether a minor should be exempt from prosecution if charged with a crime. As someone who believes that 98.9% of Psychology is BS, I believe the only objective method to guage a person's maturity is chronologically. IMO, minors should be treated differently than adult criminals. I don't think many here would condone doing away with juvenile centers in favor of putting minors in a general population prison, but it seems that's what some are advocating. 258928[/snapback] I disagree. This is one of those slippery slope thingies. Now that the Supreme Court has made this decision, it opens up arguments for what I am saying. If minors are incapable of fully understanding their actions and cannot be given the death penalty, then how can you punish them for any crime? The same argument can be made: they did not understand the ramifications of their actions. I cannot see how you can say that they do not understand the ramifications of their actions when it comes to the death penalty, but if the death penalty is not involved then they understand the ramifications of their actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Campy Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 You kill someone in cold blood, we remove your oxygen. Period. 258941[/snapback] Ahh.. Hammurabi's Code in all its glory. I'm trying to think - how many post-industrial nations even have capital punishment (besides the US). Anyone know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Campy Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 I cannot see how you can say that they do not understand the ramifications of their actions when it comes to the death penalty, but if the death penalty is not involved then they understand the ramifications of their actions. 258948[/snapback] I never said any such thing. I only said that the law says it. I also said that minors should be treated differently than adults in that they shouldn't be sentenced to general population prisons, but in any event, you do raise an interesting point. If minors can be held responsible enough for their actions to warrant sentencing them to death, how can they be deemed too irreseponsible to vote, buy a firearm, or have an abortion (sans parental consent)? A slippery slope indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Ahh.. Hammurabi's Code in all its glory. I'm trying to think - how many post-industrial nations even have capital punishment (besides the US). Anyone know? 258954[/snapback] Not a gauge I'm willing to use, sorry. There's little doubt the herd can use a little culling and I don't like the fact that prison is now an industry because we're all trying to be kind and gentle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 I never said any such thing. I only said that the law says it. I also said that minors should be treated differently than adults in that they shouldn't be sentenced to general population prisons, but in any event, you do raise an interesting point. If minors can be held responsible enough for their actions to warrant sentencing them to death, how can they be deemed too irreseponsible to vote, buy a firearm, or have an abortion (sans parental consent)? A slippery slope indeed. 258967[/snapback] Every human being must be held accountable for their actions. The rights you are alluding to have the ability to directly affect others, which is why they are best left to those mature enough to handle them. I don't see a problem here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRC Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 I never said any such thing. I only said that the law says it. I also said that minors should be treated differently than adults in that they shouldn't be sentenced to general population prisons, but in any event, you do raise an interesting point. If minors can be held responsible enough for their actions to warrant sentencing them to death, how can they be deemed too irreseponsible to vote, buy a firearm, or have an abortion (sans parental consent)? A slippery slope indeed. 258967[/snapback] Sorry if I incorrectly attributed those thoughts to you. You are correct in the fact that you point out the slippery slope in the other direction. It will be interesting to see how lawyers argue cases in the future, using this precedent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Campy Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Not a gauge I'm willing to use, sorry. There's little doubt the herd can use a little culling and I don't like the fact that prison is now an industry because we're all trying to be kind and gentle. 258969[/snapback] I wasn't asking to make or prove a point. After reading your post I instantly thought of Hammurabi's Code, then the Biblical contradiction (turn the other cheek, slay them with a sword, etc), and the fact that most nations had capital punishment until sometime in the last century (I think). For no real reason, I started thinking about the history of capital punishment, and whether any post-industrial nations, outside of the US and I guess/think Russia, still practice it. I think the French stopped after the Fr Rev... I don't know if anyone else still has it. I guess I was just thinking/posting out loud... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 I wasn't asking to make or prove a point. After reading your post I instantly thought of Hammurabi's Code, then the Biblical contradiction (turn the other cheek, slay them with a sword, etc), and the fact that most nations had capital punishment until sometime in the last century (I think). For no real reason, I started thinking about the history of capital punishment, and whether any post-industrial nations, outside of the US and I guess/think Russia, still practice it. I think the French stopped after the Fr Rev... I don't know if anyone else still has it. I guess I was just thinking/posting out loud... 258986[/snapback] I understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted March 2, 2005 Author Share Posted March 2, 2005 This is Ef'd up.James Bonifay, 31 Age at time of crime: 17 Crime: In Pensacola in 1991, Bonifay meant to kill a clerk at an auto parks store whom Bonifay's cousin blamed for getting him fired. But the clerk called in sick and was replaced by Billy Wayne Coker, whom Bonifay shot and killed. What ruling means: Bonifay could be eligible for parole in about 10 years, but he also was sentenced to life in prison for robbery. He will not be eligible for parole if the sentences are consecutive. If they aren't, he will be. Cleo LeCroy, 41 Age at time of crime: 17 Crime: In January 1981, LeCroy fatally shot a newlywed couple from Miami-Dade who were camping in rural Palm Beach County south of Lake Okeechobee. The bodies of John and Gail Hardeman were found about a week after they didn't return home. John Hardeman had been shot in the head; Gail Hardeman had been shot in the head, neck and chest. What ruling means: LeCroy will be eligible for parole in a few years. Nathan Ramirez, 27 Age at time of crime: 17 Crime: He killed Mildred Boroski, a 71-year-old widow, in 1995. She was in bed at her Pasco County home when Ramirez and a friend broke in. They tied her up, killed her dog and looted the house. Ramirez shot Boroski twice in the head. What ruling means: Ramirez will never be eligible for parole because his crime occurred after a 1994 law that denies parole eligibility for people convicted of first-degree murder. 258623[/snapback] Gee, so much for the "why do we need to execute them when we can just locking them up for good?" arguement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Here is the list. Now my feeling is, I am for the death penalty, but I do agree with Chris here. I think the death penalty should be eliminated for minors. I agree with the court ruling here. I know the arguments, and I stuggle with my opinion, but that is "my" opinion. http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777460.html Death Penalty Permitted Afghanistan Antigua and Barbuda Bahamas Bahrain Bangladesh Barbados Belarus Belize Botswana Burundi Cameroon Chad China (People's Republic) Comoros Congo (Democratic Republic) Cuba Dominica Egypt Equatorial Guinea Eritrea Ethiopia Gabon Ghana Guatemala Guinea Guyana India Indonesia Iran Iraq Jamaica Japan Jordan Kazakhstan Korea, North Korea, South Kuwait Kyrgyzstan Laos Lebanon Lesotho Liberia Libya Malawi Malaysia Mongolia Morocco Myanmar Nigeria Oman Pakistan Palestinian Authority Philippines Qatar Rwanda St. Kitts and Nevis St. Lucia St. Vincent and the Grenadines Saudi Arabia Sierra Leone Singapore Somalia Sudan Swaziland Syria Taiwan Tajikistan Tanzania Thailand Trinidad and Tobago Uganda United Arab Emirates United States of America Uzbekistan Vietnam Yemen Zambia Zimbabwe Death Penalty Permitted in Exceptional Cases2 Albania (2000) Argentina (1984) Armenia (2003) Bolivia (1997) Brazil (1979) Chile (2001) Cook Islands (n.a.) El Salvador (1983) Fiji (1979) Greece (1993) Israel (1954) Latvia (1999) Mexico (n.a.) Peru (1979) Turkey (2004) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Tate Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 The only problem I see with capital punishment is that it is not used often or swiftly enough. If criminals commit capital offenses (we're not talking about a theft here), and they're found guilty, they should be executed. If they happen to be minors, I guess a lengthier review before sentencing would be in order, but to quote Jules in Pulp Fiction "Well we'd have to be talkin' about one charmin' mfin' pig. I mean he'd have to be ten times more charmin' than that Arnold on Green Acres, you know what I'm sayin'?" Next step: Joe Criminal was convicted of a capital offense. Your Honor, since Joe has the mental maturity level of a minor, he should not receive the death penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Next step: Joe Criminal was convicted of a capital offense. Your Honor, since Joe has the mental maturity level of a minor, he should not receive the death penalty. 259242[/snapback] We already did this back in 2002. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Tate Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 We already did this back in 2002. 259363[/snapback] Furthers the point that it is not minors that are the concern, it is the inability to eliminate capital punishment, therefore the effort is to selectively weaken it's enforcement to the point that it is impossible to implement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 Furthers the point that it is not minors that are the concern, it is the inability to eliminate capital punishment, therefore the effort is to selectively weaken it's enforcement to the point that it is impossible to implement. 259372[/snapback] If you consider not executing retards weakening it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erynthered Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 I agree that a person doesn't suddently know right from wrong on a certain date. However, I do not think that type of ruling would work with our legal system. 258083[/snapback] So, doesnt O'Conners rebut make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Tate Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 If you consider not executing retards weakening it. 259666[/snapback] Of course it does. I wasn't equating maturity level with mental retardation, but yes, if you determine a criminal who has committed a capital offense should not be subject to the death penalty because of mental capacity, of course it weakens it. You may believe it to be proper, just as there are those who feel it is proper that a criminal under the age of 18 who has committed a capital offense should not be subject to the death penalty. But it obviously weakens capital punishment by making exceptions to the rule, in lieu of banning it, which is not possible at this point in time. Which was the point I was trying to make. Were I a defense lawyer, I couldn't argue my adult client was actually a minor, but I sure as hell could argue he had the mental capacity or maturity level of one, and therefore should not be subject to the death penalty. Also see: Ban on partial-birth abortions, in lieu of overturning Roe V Wade, or California's medical marijuana initiative, in lieu of blanket legalization of marijuana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ForeverBillsNutty Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 I think they made the right desicion. I am 29 now and lot calmer then I used to be. Until I was about 22 I would fight in the drop of a hat. I got in lots of troubel and nobody messed with me. I felt like killing people all the time just for messing with me and I didn't know why. If I killed somebody by acident I would have to go to the elecric chair but I wern't relly responsible for what I was doing. What they did was a good idea for younger people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 So, doesnt O'Conners rebut make sense? 259671[/snapback] In a way. Except that as I posted in my last post on the 1st page, Sandra can't make the rules. The best solution at this time is for the court to rule what they ruled. Of course it does. I wasn't equating maturity level with mental retardation, but yes, if you determine a criminal who has committed a capital offense should not be subject to the death penalty because of mental capacity, of course it weakens it. You may believe it to be proper, just as there are those who feel it is proper that a criminal under the age of 18 who has committed a capital offense should not be subject to the death penalty. But it obviously weakens capital punishment by making exceptions to the rule, in lieu of banning it, which is not possible at this point in time. Which was the point I was trying to make. Were I a defense lawyer, I couldn't argue my adult client was actually a minor, but I sure as hell could argue he had the mental capacity or maturity level of one, and therefore should not be subject to the death penalty. Also see: Ban on partial-birth abortions, in lieu of overturning Roe V Wade, or California's medical marijuana initiative, in lieu of blanket legalization of marijuana. 259852[/snapback] If I understand your argument correctly, you are saying that because we don't execute Mentally Retarded, that weakens the death penalty. First let me state that we have tests to determine IQ, and we know what IQ understands what consequences. This will be important later. The purpose of the death penalty is three-fold (listed in matter of importance): 1.) to keep people off the street that are a threat to society 2.) to act as deterrance 3.) to act as punishment A Mentally Retarded person won't understand #1 or #2, which leaves the only option as #3. However, a punishment such as #3 could be given in the same mental capacity as #1 or #2 to a mentally retarded person without them knowing the difference. So exactly how does this weaken #1, #2, or #3 in regards to the mentally retarded? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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