Buffalo Boy Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 In one year the Browns have accumulated a draft stockpile well beyond anything the NFL has seen since perhaps the Hershal Walker trade, or the Ricky Williams trade. They've used their stockpile of cap space (as well as the talent they already had) to build 4/5ths of what should be a very good offensive line, they have the basis for a good receiving corps, and adding Garrett as well as the Collins move last year puts them in position to have a strong front 7 defensively. The simple truth is this organization likely would be in MUCH better shape long term if they rolled all our cap space over this offseason, accumulated the comp picks from letting Gilmore / Woods / Brown / Goodwin / Alexander etc walk and traded any of Shady, Graham, Kyle, Preston Brown, Richie, Wood etc that would have value, before rolling pick #10 back to accumulate as much future draft capital we could. We'd very likely be very bad this year, but the basis of a foundation is there with Sammy / Glenn / Miller / Dareus / Lawson / Hughes / Ragland / Darby and a few of the younger guys we don't know much about yet that it wouldn't take long to get back into our current position only with a MUCH brighter outlook on our future, a full season of seeing if we can find any gems out of later round picks / UDFAs, perhaps Darnold to really build around, a mountain of cap space and a pile of draft picks. However, we do not have that long term outlook as we keep sacrificing future value to push the 8th or 9th most talented team in the AFC into one of the two wild card spots. How anyone thinks that's the best long term move for this franchise is beyond me. Couldn't agree more. However, when we are 3-8 there will be threads swearing up and down we still have a chance😳 I don't see a long term plan. I see McD thinking he has the coaching acumen to do it but not sure I'm buying what he's selling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Maiden Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 This thread is accurate but so depressing.....Going to put Metallica's " Sad but true ".... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloRebound Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 How is not trying to win a path? When does Cleveland let everyone in building know, "now it's ok to try to win". Bills went through almost a 10 year purgatory after Donahoe flamed out where winning was not the main goal (Toronto series, uncertainty with ownership situation and if team was even gonna stay in Buffalo). You don't just turn a switch back on. Taking on other teams bad contracts for draft picks wins the internet geeks, but it has to be demoralizing for players, fans and coaches who actually care about winning on the field. It's basically just throwing your hands up and saying we have no chance to win so we'll try something crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 How is not trying to win a path? When does Cleveland let everyone in building know, "now it's ok to try to win". Bills went through almost a 10 year purgatory after Donahoe flamed out where winning was not the main goal (Toronto series, uncertainty with ownership situation and if team was even gonna stay in Buffalo). You don't just turn a switch back on. Taking on other teams bad contracts for draft picks wins the internet geeks, but it has to be demoralizing for players, fans and coaches who actually care about winning on the field. It's basically just throwing your hands up and saying we have no chance to win so we'll try something crazy. It isnt about losing on purpose. It is looking at 3-4 years down the road and beyond and building with that in mind. Operationally it gives you an advantage because not many teams are able to commit to that mode, whether it is ownership impatience or fearing fan backlash (I think, like the Sabres, the Bills' fan base would buy into the vision). You can act in a way that other teams dont like trading off assets for futures and like the Osweiler case, eating a team's bad contract for a future benefit. As a side effect, the team is probably going to be terrible for a year or two. Assuming all scouting and development is the same.... who has a better chance at being a better team and scooping up pro bowlers? The Browns with 36 draft picks (many of them 1sts-3rds) over '16-'18 as well as unprecedented maneuverability under the cap? Or the Bills' 20 picks over that span, cash-strapped, and doing just enough to stay in the #7-#14 draft position? Also, I also do not believe Wilson's Bills in the 2000s were geared to win.... however, I think he enjoyed staying in mediocrity. Was just enough to keep the fans off his back for 3 year stretches. They were comfortable where they were, which is why there was never a major change since the Donahoe hire 1000 years ago. For some reason, Pegula maintained the same management team, and it isnt surprising they act the same and get the same results Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan4 Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 A number of the most successful current NFL QB's have been found outside the top 5 of the draft. Tom Brady - 6th round (5 Super Bowl wins, 7 SB appearances) Drew Brees - 2nd round (super bowl win) Aaron Rodgers - late 1st round (Super Bowl win) Tony Romo - undrafted Ben Roethlisberger - mid 1st round (2 Super Bowl wins, 3 SB appearances) Russel Wilson - 3rd round (1 SB win, 2 SB appearances) And pretty soon you might be able to add more guys to that list of successful NFl starting QBs, like - Derek Carr - 2nd Dark Prescott - 4th Kirk Cousins - 4th And then you have other franchise QBs like - Andy Dalton - 2nd Joe Flacco - late 1st (1 Super Bowl win) possibly Teddy Bridgewater, if he's able to come back from injury (who was a very late 1st round pick) Ryan Tannehill, if you consider him to be a franchise QB Then we have the top 5 picks - Eli Manning - #1 (2 Super Bowl wins) Carson Palmer - #1 overall (zero Super Bowl appearances) Matt Ryan - #3 (1 Super Bowl appearance in his 8th year starting) Cam Newton - #1 (1 Super Bowl appearance in his 5th year) Robert Griffin III - #2 (zero SB appearances) Andrew Luck - (zero SB appearances) Matthew Stafford - #1 (zero SB appearances) Blake Bortles - #3 (zero SB appearances) Philip Rivers - #4 (zero SB appearances, and Big Ben has 3, who was taken after him in the same draft) Alex Smith- #1 (zero SB appearances) Sam Bradford - #1 (zero SB appearances) Too soon to tell - Goff, Wentz, Mariota, Winston. So I don't see where drafting a QB in the top 5 is a make or break thing for the Bills. Seems like they have as good or better chance of finding a successful franchise QB outside the top 5 to me. They just need to start drafting more QBs, whatever round that might be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 A number of the most successful current NFL QB's have been found outside the top 5 of the draft. Tom Brady - 6th round (5 Super Bowl wins, 7 SB appearances) Drew Brees - 2nd round (super bowl win) Aaron Rodgers - late 1st round (Super Bowl win) Tony Romo - undrafted Ben Roethlisberger - mid 1st round (2 Super Bowl wins, 3 SB appearances) Russel Wilson - 3rd round (1 SB win, 2 SB appearances) And pretty soon you might be able to add more guys to that list of successful NFl starting QBs, like - Derek Carr - 2nd Dark Prescott - 4th Kirk Cousins - 4th And then you have other franchise QBs like - Andy Dalton - 2nd Joe Flacco - late 1st (1 Super Bowl win) possibly Teddy Bridgewater, if he's able to come back from injury (who was a very late 1st round pick) Ryan Tannehill, if you consider him to be a franchise QB Then we have the top 5 picks - Eli Manning - #1 (2 Super Bowl wins) Carson Palmer - #1 overall (zero Super Bowl appearances) Matt Ryan - #3 (1 Super Bowl appearance in his 8th year starting) Cam Newton - #1 (1 Super Bowl appearance in his 5th year) Robert Griffin III - #2 (zero SB appearances) Andrew Luck - (zero SB appearances) Matthew Stafford - #1 (zero SB appearances) Blake Bortles - #3 (zero SB appearances) Philip Rivers - #4 (zero SB appearances, and Big Ben has 3, who was taken after him in the same draft) Alex Smith- #1 (zero SB appearances) Sam Bradford - #1 (zero SB appearances) Too soon to tell - Goff, Wentz, Mariota, Winston. So I don't see where drafting a QB in the top 5 is a make or break thing for the Bills. Seems like they have as good or better chance of finding a successful franchise QB outside the top 5 to me. They just need to start drafting more QBs, whatever round that might be. Many of your successful QBs listed were drafted a million years ago. If you want a franchise QB you have to scout better AND pull the trigger. Most advocating a rebuild see a top 3 or top 5 pick as a bonus to clearing cap space and getting younger. Did you list Ben Roethlisberger? Steelers took him 11th in a loaded QB class and mediocre Bills picked 2 picks later. Bills wanted him badly but finished too high. Tell us how we didn't need him that year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan4 Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 (edited) Many of your successful QBs listed were drafted a million years ago. If you want a franchise QB you have to scout better AND pull the trigger. Most advocating a rebuild see a top 3 or top 5 pick as a bonus to clearing cap space and getting younger. Did you list Ben Roethlisberger? Steelers took him 11th in a loaded QB class and mediocre Bills picked 2 picks later. Bills wanted him badly but finished too high. Tell us how we didn't need him that year. Yes, I did list Roesthlisberger. And I listed Rivers, who was taken before him in the draft and has had much less success...I know the Bills missed out on Big Ben. But the point still stands. He went outside the top 3-5 (and even outside the top 10). It appears the most successful QBs in the NFL went outside the top 5 to me. Just goes to show what a crap shoot the draft is. I just don't see where you need to plan a season around having a draft pick in the top 5. There have been just as many franchise QBs found outside the top 5 as there have been in the top 5. Like you said, we need to scout QBs better AND pull the trigger more often. But we don't have to draft in the top 5 to find our franchise QB. Personally, I think it's more important to try and build a winning culture in Buffalo after these almost 2 decades of losing, and it's hard to do that if the goal of the front office is a top 5 pick... This is the best 3 year stretch this team has had since the playoff drought started. I want to keep building on it. There are plenty of successful teams that have found their franchise QB outside the top 5, and without cutting a bunch of talented players to tank a season. Edit - also, I don't really see where it matters at this point about wanting to cut a bunch of players and not sign Tyrod and tank etc. It's obviously not happening. So I choose to look at the actual situation that's in front of me and find the best in it. Edited March 10, 2017 by BillsFan4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 This one's not sub par: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Thats what gets me about these Browns doubters. The Browns are doing almost exactly what the Raiders did, only to an extreme the Raiders didn't quite reach. When McKenzie took over he flushed all the bad contracts out of Oakland in one offseason, completely reset their cap, moved down in the Dion Jordan draft to accumulate draft assets, spent heavily in FA to build an offensive line, landed a franchise pass rusher and a franchise QB in the same draft haul and are now the next "it" team. People don't realize the Browns aren't reinventing the game, they are taking what Oakland did to finally reverse the cycle only built even more draft capital to rebuild on. There were plenty of people who made fun of Oakland's process and many of the same people who think the Browns are dumb while they continue to blindly support our carousel of mediocrity. This guy gets it. COMPLETELY. This team from everything under the "owner" level should have been nuked in the offseason. Everyone from the GM to the ball boy fired and replaced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Yes, I did list Roesthlisberger. And I listed Rivers, who was taken before him in the draft and has had much less success... I know the Bills missed out on Big Ben. But the point still stands. He went outside the top 3-5 (and even outside the top 10). It appears the most successful QBs in the NFL went outside the top 5 to me. Just goes to show what a crap shoot the draft is. I just don't see where you need to plan a season around having a draft pick in the top 5. There have been just as many franchise QBs found outside the top 5 as there have been in the top 5. Like you said, we need to scout QBs better AND pull the trigger more often. But we don't have to draft in the top 5 to find our franchise QB. Personally, I think it's more important to try and build a winning culture in Buffalo after these almost 2 decades of losing, and it's hard to do that if the goal of the front office is a top 5 pick... This is the best 3 year stretch this team has had since the playoff drought started. I want to keep building on it. There are plenty of successful teams that have found their franchise QB outside the top 5, and without cutting a bunch of talented players to tank a season. Edit - also, I don't really see where it matters at this point about wanting to cut a bunch of players and not sign Tyrod and tank etc. It's obviously not happening. So I choose to look at the actual situation that's in front of me and find the best in it. We are not going to create a winning culture next year. Look at the roster. I am not advocating we tank as we already look like a 6 win team. What we need to do is get younger, more talented and stop pretending we are something we are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bftvocal70 Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 (edited) Rex was a horrible coach, absolutely terrible... I really don't know what to expect form the bills this season. All outcomes have a possibility. McDermott and his systems / game planning will be the determining factor and nobody can guess that right now. Talent wise I see us being no worse than last year after the draft / FA... Finally a common sense reply on this board, it's been years actually since I've seen that around here. Rex and his brothers defense singlehandedly lost us 3-4 games last year everyone wants to blame Doug or Tyrod or Russ or TP when in reality we could have been in the playoffs last year if our D showed up in those games. Rex and his staff were the problem. period. Edited March 10, 2017 by Bftvocal70 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 In one year the Browns have accumulated a draft stockpile well beyond anything the NFL has seen since perhaps the Hershal Walker trade, or the Ricky Williams trade. They've used their stockpile of cap space (as well as the talent they already had) to build 4/5ths of what should be a very good offensive line, they have the basis for a good receiving corps, and adding Garrett as well as the Collins move last year puts them in position to have a strong front 7 defensively. The were on their 6th QB by the 3rd week of October. 4 QBs were injured in week 5. They just picked up Brock O---and they may part with several top picks to get Garopolo. Where are the Browns going? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4_kidd_4 Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 I stand by my statement. Buffalo fans have a fetish for losing. 'Fetish' may be extreme, but I could definitely see 'comfortable familiarity'. To put it into a bit of context, when the Cubs were in the WS last year, a poll showed one in four Cubs fans didn't want them to win. They had grown accustomed to the 'lovable loser' identity. I decipher that as a sports "Stockholm Syndrome", so used to the losing that it becomes a part pf you and you become fond of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardcore Bills Fan Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 The Bills could go 0-16 and DW would still miss on the QB pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samwell Tarly Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 (edited) I'm not a fan of tanking. No one seems to have a formula to ensure that the top qb picked will be a success, there seem to be a lot of factors that work together for success. Even Andrew Luck, who supposedly can't miss, hasn't brought a Lombardi trophy to Indy. Always play to win. Respect the efforts and sacrifices of your current players. A lot can happen over 16 games and nothing is guaranteed. Take the best players you can get who fit your system and don't waste cap money on shiny toys. The Bills have Tyrod for now, so they can draft a backup to train behind him. I'm as frustrated with this drought as anyone, but purposely losing to draft a savior is kinda like selling your house to buy lottery tickets. Edited March 11, 2017 by Jigsaw2112 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 i'm going the other way add a legit WR, RT & CB we are wild card team 10-6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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