CommonCents Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 Wagner has ties to Dennison, Bouye has no ties to our coaching staff. This isn't Madden, considering our status in regards to contending and our inability to blow up the corner market due to cap considerations, Bouye is not a player we can realistically plan to pursue. Wagner has ties to the OC so that makes a big money RT a smart decision? That's a bit of a reach. Signing a player that has no relation to the coaching staff is a stretch? I don't see the logic behind any of what you wrote. Sure, Dennison might have a comfort level with Wagner but that isn't going to change the Bills QB situation. It would be a great signing if it didn't mean letting ZB and SG walk out the door just so he can walk in it, unfortunately that is the corner they painted themselves into with bad contracts.
WhitewalkerInPhilly Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 I don't think they would drop this type of coin to start Cardale I agree. Of course, to play devil's advocate, if you want to start a rookie, the best thing you can do is make sure the OL is rock solid and you have a strong running game. I like the moves I've heard about so far today. I have heard zilch about the O-line in the draft. I don't think I've seen a single mock with a tackle in the top 10. I'm ok with dropping some money to lock up RT.
thebandit27 Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 We've been quite poor at that position for years. The draft is strong on CB, LB, S, DL. Why would you force yourself to use a pick on a RT with only 6 picks in this admittedly deep draft. You can't run an offense with a porous Oline. How many of our runs to the right HAD to involve a pulling guard because we had to compensate for Mills? I don't agree with allocating significant portions of the cap to certain positions (like RT or #2 WR). I'm not saying not to address the position, but I would handle it differently. I would keep the option of moving Glenn in my back pocket if necessary, and I would prioritize positions like LB, S, and CB in free agency (via cap casualties where possible as I've said before). I don't want to rely on the draft to fill critical needs, because that forces your hand in the early rounds. For the money that it takes to sign Wagner, we could also likely sign a combination of Antoine Bethea, Alterraun Verner, and a situational pass rusher. I've now filled 3 of the 4 needs you listed above, and can go into the draft without having to force myself to overvalue certain positions. As I've said, it's a different philosophy.
Chuck Wagon Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 Your point is not lost on me, and I don't dismiss its validity. Where I get stuck is that I can probably find a lower-cost fix at RT (be in Vollmer as a cap casualty, Glenn [if Kouandjuio kicks to LT], or even a guy like Roderick Johnson on day 2 of the draft), and I'd prefer to do that and keep Zach Brown than spend a lot of money at RT. I suppose it's wrought from the idea that having to pay big money to plug non-premium holes like RT and TE has long been an issue for this team. If I'm going to pay big FA money, I want it to be a pass rusher, CB, or elite LB. Just a different philosophy from you is all. I agree with your philosophy, but we have to do what's available. I hated letting Gilmore walk, I think there were players we could have cut to create cap room but didn't for what may be sentimental reasons. But I think this whole FA period is going to be wacky, I'd rather sign a guy like Wagner who I know upgrades what's long been a problem area than signing the Chris Williams of the world for still a lot of money. But I tend to have a more "stars and scrubs" roster approach, I think you can find guys for cheap that will give you 90% of what a $5-$6 mil guy will in this market. My first preference was to keep Gilmore and move on proactively from guys who won't be here in 2 seasons, but like I said, that ship has sailed.
ndirish1978 Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 Wagner has ties to the OC so that makes a big money RT a smart decision? That's a bit of a reach. Signing a player that has no relation to the coaching staff is a stretch? I don't see the logic behind any of what you wrote. Sure, Dennison might have a comfort level with Wagner but that isn't going to change the Bills QB situation. It would be a great signing if it didn't mean letting ZB and SG walk out the door just so he can walk in it, unfortunately that is the corner they painted themselves into with bad contracts. You're honestly saying that a good Oline doesn't change the QB situation?
thebandit27 Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 but you want to pay a CB $12+ million who was a starter on a incredibly poor defense. We would be improving our offense, maybe not have our QB get hit so often. Maybe be able to open up the passing game by having one of the highest rated pass blocking tackles on the team. Gilmore is gone, he's too expensive. While I'd rather pay that money to Gilmore, I think you're missing the greater point: I'd rather pay for a CB or pass rusher with that money than a RT. I agree with your philosophy, but we have to do what's available. I hated letting Gilmore walk, I think there were players we could have cut to create cap room but didn't for what may be sentimental reasons. But I think this whole FA period is going to be wacky, I'd rather sign a guy like Wagner who I know upgrades what's long been a problem area than signing the Chris Williams of the world for still a lot of money. But I tend to have a more "stars and scrubs" roster approach, I think you can find guys for cheap that will give you 90% of what a $5-$6 mil guy will in this market. My first preference was to keep Gilmore and move on proactively from guys who won't be here in 2 seasons, but like I said, that ship has sailed. That's exactly how I feel, but only at the non-premium positions. When it comes to QB, WR, pass rusher, and CB, I'm all for paying the elites. JMO of course.
Chuck Wagon Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 Wagner has ties to the OC so that makes a big money RT a smart decision? That's a bit of a reach. Signing a player that has no relation to the coaching staff is a stretch? I don't see the logic behind any of what you wrote. Sure, Dennison might have a comfort level with Wagner but that isn't going to change the Bills QB situation. It would be a great signing if it didn't mean letting ZB and SG walk out the door just so he can walk in it, unfortunately that is the corner they painted themselves into with bad contracts. My logic is we are the Buffalo Bills, if we are going to do something in FA we have to take what's available to us. Bouye simply isn't an option, so there's no point in pining over it. Saying "we should sign AJ Bouye and Tony Romo" shows a fundamental lack of understanding of our position as a team in the league and our cap capabilities.
aristocrat Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 will have a lot of money locked in on the o line. Keep that run game going!
klos63 Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 While I'd rather pay that money to Gilmore, I think you're missing the greater point: I'd rather pay for a CB or pass rusher with that money than a RT. That's exactly how I feel, but only at the non-premium positions. When it comes to QB, WR, pass rusher, and CB, I'm all for paying the elites. JMO of course. Fair enough, we'll just disagree a bit on this one. To me, you nothing better than a great O-Line. Even if we had a good one last year, I like getting better in that area.
Guest K-GunJimKelly12 Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 (edited) The Gilmore love in this thread is puzzling. He is not very good and how can someone coordinate a defense, when they know if the opponent throws a bubble screen or a screen to the RB on Gilmore's side, he won't make the tackle or even slow the receiver down. He is not great at coverage either. Whoever signs him is going to regret it in two years. He will be a cap cut in 2-3 years. Edited March 8, 2017 by K-GunJimKelly12
ndirish1978 Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 I don't agree with allocating significant portions of the cap to certain positions (like RT or #2 WR). I'm not saying not to address the position, but I would handle it differently. I would keep the option of moving Glenn in my back pocket if necessary, and I would prioritize positions like LB, S, and CB in free agency (via cap casualties where possible as I've said before). I don't want to rely on the draft to fill critical needs, because that forces your hand in the early rounds. For the money that it takes to sign Wagner, we could also likely sign a combination of Antoine Bethea, Alterraun Verner, and a situational pass rusher. I've now filled 3 of the 4 needs you listed above, and can go into the draft without having to force myself to overvalue certain positions. As I've said, it's a different philosophy. I'm going to disagree because it seems like you're using general philosophies to address specific issues. I don't think you're accounting for the shift in how defenses are keying on weak RT play and shifting strong pass rushers to the right. you can't just get by with a good LT and a serviceable RT anymore imo. Also, there is no problem drafting for need when the draft lines up with your needs. If this were a weak CB, S class then yes, I would be clamoring to sign those positions as FA, but it's not. We can fill positions of need with the strength of this draft. I'd rather have Lattimore/Baker than Bethea/Verner
Meazy26 Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 The cap will be 200 mil by 2020... if it makes us better, I'm down. It ain't my money.
H2o Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 You add Wagner to the group we have in place and things are looking up and up. If Shady stays healthy he could put up 1,500-1,600 yards again with a good RT and an even better FB.
Chuck Wagon Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 I'm going to disagree because it seems like you're using general philosophies to address specific issues. I don't think you're accounting for the shift in how defenses are keying on weak RT play and shifting strong pass rushers to the right. you can't just get by with a good LT and a serviceable RT anymore imo. Also, there is no problem drafting for need when the draft lines up with your needs. If this were a weak CB, S class then yes, I would be clamoring to sign those positions as FA, but it's not. We can fill positions of need with the strength of this draft. I'd rather have Lattimore/Baker than Bethea/Verner Thanks for helping sum up what I've been trying to say. The importance of LT - RT has shifted some, from LT being a premium position and RT being an after thought. Balance is more important now as defenses are going to attack your weakest point regardless of where you put it. Dallas just showed what a dominant OLine can do in the league at this point, controlling the clock dramatically helped their defense by keeping it off the field and it helped Dak develop. We have one massive hole in our line keeping us from that level, Wagner would fill it emphatically. While it's not a "premium" position, I don't view it as a waste of resources.
CommonCents Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 My logic is we are the Buffalo Bills, if we are going to do something in FA we have to take what's available to us. Bouye simply isn't an option, so there's no point in pining over it. Saying "we should sign AJ Bouye and Tony Romo" shows a fundamental lack of understanding of our position as a team in the league and our cap capabilities. Follow along slowly Chuck, I said the move would make sense if you had a pocket passer in tow like Romo etc. We don't have that, we can't even find that or make it happen under the cap. I didn't suggest signing him, I said that's what would justify overpaying for a pass blocking RT. The Bouye was in retort to Bandit taking about Gilmore. They both play CB right? I can't stand Gilmore, so I said Bouye. Hint hint they will both likely ink deals that are relatively close in dollars and the point was about positional value. I'm not going to keep going on this, he hasn't even signed and we still don't have an answer on TT. I just would not put enough value on Wagner and fall short at other positions, ecspecially while Taylor is behind that line.
Tsaikotic Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 and draft defense defense and WR's...I can see them taking 2 WR's this draft...1/2 round and maybe one of the 5th's
2003Contenders Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 With this news and the news about the Pro Bowl FB, I think the Bills finally made their decision. They will keep Tyrod and focus on a strong running game again. It makes too much sense. Fair enough. Or, noting that Wagner is known for his pass blocking skills, the team may be working toward the transition from the mobile Tyrod to a more pure pocket passer. Whomever that may be...
thebandit27 Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 Fair enough, we'll just disagree a bit on this one. To me, you nothing better than a great O-Line. Even if we had a good one last year, I like getting better in that area. Yeah, like I said, they're just different philosophies. I'm going to disagree because it seems like you're using general philosophies to address specific issues. I don't think you're accounting for the shift in how defenses are keying on weak RT play and shifting strong pass rushers to the right. you can't just get by with a good LT and a serviceable RT anymore imo. Also, there is no problem drafting for need when the draft lines up with your needs. If this were a weak CB, S class then yes, I would be clamoring to sign those positions as FA, but it's not. We can fill positions of need with the strength of this draft. I'd rather have Lattimore/Baker than Bethea/Verner Obviously I disagree regarding good LT/serviceable RT. In fact, that's what most teams are doing now. You'll be hard-pressed to find any teams paying both tackles serious money. Where I think we differ the most is that I look at FA and the draft as mutually-exclusive team-building operations. I'm looking to fill holes in FA without any thought of what I'm doing in the draft. In that vein, I can more efficiently allocate resources to the combination of guys like Zach Brown, Bethea, Verner, and a situational pass rusher than I can to guys like Wagner and Juszczyk. I then go into the draft and take the best players at premium positions, without any regard of what I do in FA. Again, just my philosophy.
Elite Poster Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 They pick him up and they can dump Henderson. Pick up Juice they can dump Felton. Not going to be as expensive as we think.
ndirish1978 Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 Follow along slowly Chuck, I said the move would make sense if you had a pocket passer in tow like Romo etc. We don't have that, we can't even find that or make it happen under the cap. I didn't suggest signing him, I said that's what would justify overpaying for a pass blocking RT. The Bouye was in retort to Bandit taking about Gilmore. They both play CB right? I can't stand Gilmore, so I said Bouye. Hint hint they will both likely ink deals that are relatively close in dollars and the point was about positional value. I'm not going to keep going on this, he hasn't even signed and we still don't have an answer on TT. I just would not put enough value on Wagner and fall short at other positions, ecspecially while Taylor is behind that line. You build teams from the lines back. A good Oline enhances any offense, not just one with a pocket passer.
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