Sources: Chasm between Bills coaches, front office on Tyrod

[San-O]

So Tyrod is to blame when the offense scores points, but the D can't get off the field on 3rd down? Or Carpenter boinks the goal post? The team plays .500 ball. Yes, he failed to see or hit open receivers, but he's not the reason we missed the playoffs this year. Is he top 5-10? No. Can we win with him, obviously. QB is the most important position in all of sports, so I can't see letting the best one we've had in decades go until we know we have something better on the roster.

 

I wish this argument would die already....and soon we can go on to other things. Soon we will know our direction.

 

 

Dude. Tyrod isn't an NFL QB Apparently even Whaley has come to this conclusion...

[Augie]

Dude. Tyrod isn't an NFL QB Apparently even Whaley has come to this conclusion...

So, is Jeff Tuel the answer? I'm not against looking for a Franchise guy....that's priority #1. I'm just not for dumping the best guy we've had in 20 years until we know we have something better. Why would you do that? If that's the plan, tell Kyle we are tanking and save the cap money. Take a guy you feel good about and see what you've got, or trade back and add ammo for next years QB crop.

[BADOLBILZ]

I like your posts, but saying that an individual player is a ".500 player" is a sign to me that a person likes simplistic explanations (because they're easy) and isn't sharp (or brave?) enough to dive deeper. I know you are not like this, but a lot of people are, and frankly it drives me freaking nuts.

 

Drew Brees has been 7-9 or 8-8 three years in a row, but assigning him a win-loss record is the height of idiocy. In every one of these seasons he has been without question one of the five best qbs in the league.

 

 

Yeah all the "he can't win/he's a .500 QB talk" is basically cover for their belief that a REAL franchise QB will have the team in perennial contention..........so let's get one of those instead!

 

The problem is that there aren't nearly as many of those out there as people think........what if you get your coveted franchise guy and he's like Philip Rivers or Matt Stafford and you are still not really in contention?

 

Really the only 2 current QB's that have proven that they can carry their teams every year are Rodgers and Brady.

 

Those guys elevate their teams to the playoffs every year......and fwiw, Brady's coach ain't too bad.

 

But that's where the list ends.

 

All the other good ones are ".500 QB's" if their defense and special teams goes to hell.

Edited March 6, 2017 by #BADOL

[JohnC]

 

1) That's just made-up talk.

 

2) He has proven to be dumb enough to make a lot of mistakes.

 

3) The smart guy you mentioned above felt EJ had "IT".

 

I get the frustration.........I've been advocating the Bills picking a QB with their first round pick EVERY year as a strategy and have pointed out time and again the fact that they haven't even drafted a QB with their originally slotted first pick in round 1 of any draft since their inaugural season.

 

Quite literally NEVER been all-in on a QB prospect.......which is inexcusable.

 

But cutting your productive QB because you think the GM is too dumb to take a shot on a young QB otherwise is not a strategy. If it's that bad, the GM needs to be the one to go.

 

Tyrod is a productive QB and I favor introducing young QB's into established, successful systems rather than burning it down and making them carry your franchise out of the basement.

As I said in my post if the Bills keep TT or not is not the main issue for me. He may be productive (your description) but if DW can find a cheaper option who can be just as productive then I'm not going to disagree with that reasoning.

 

Whaley has made plenty of mistakes. You certainly are not going to get an argument from me on that issue. But whatever plentiful mistakes he has made doesn't mean that his judgment on TT relative to his cost is wrong. If Whaley wants his limited qb gone and believes that he can find a reasonable replacement then I'm not going criticize him for a decision that I understand.

 

You and I are in accord that Whaley has to the point of irrationality not made it a priority to secure a franchise qb, mostly through the draft. It makes no sense to me. This muddling along on the most important position that determines success has me befuddled and infuriated. It's like Trump glowingly talking about Putin. It's crazy talk and behavior.

 

I'll repeat what I said before: I don't give a dam whether TT stays or not. In the grand scheme of things it means little. The real issue is getting serious and drafting a qb who has the potential to be a franchise qb. Based on TT's performance I am not confident that he has the capacity to be what we need him to be. Enough is enough.

[FireChan]

As I said in my post if the Bills keep TT or not is not the main issue for me. He may be productive (your description) but if DW can find a cheaper option who can be just as productive then I'm not going to disagree with that reasoning.

 

Whaley has made plenty of mistakes. You certainly are not going to get an argument from me on that issue. But whatever plentiful mistakes he has made doesn't mean that his judgment on TT relative to his cost is wrong. If Whaley wants his limited qb gone and believes that he can find a reasonable replacement then I'm not going criticize him for a decision that I understand.

 

You and I are in accord that Whaley has to the point of irrationality not made it a priority to secure a franchise qb, mostly through the draft. It makes no sense to me. This muddling along on the most important position that determines success has me befuddled and infuriated. It's like Trump glowingly talking about Putin. It's crazy talk and behavior.

 

I'll repeat what I said before: I don't give a dam whether TT stays or not. In the grand scheme of things it means little. The real issue is getting serious and drafting a qb who has the potential to be a franchise qb. Based on TT's performance I am not confident that he has the capacity to be what we need him to be. Enough is enough.

Bingo!

 

It doesn't matter if TT stays or goes. He isn't the guy and we should operate accordingly. This dumb franchise will probably keep him, pretend he is the guy, and not take a QB for 3 more years to build around TT's glorious march to 9-7. Because Bills.

Edited March 6, 2017 by FireChan

[K-9]

I like your posts, but saying that an individual player is a ".500 player" is a sign to me that a person likes simplistic explanations (because they're easy) and isn't sharp (or brave?) enough to dive deeper. I know you are not like this, but a lot of people are, and frankly it drives me freaking nuts.

 

Drew Brees has been 7-9 or 8-8 three years in a row, but assigning him a win-loss record is the height of idiocy. In every one of these seasons he has been without question one of the five best qbs in the league.

Oh for phuck sake.

 

The TEAM is a .500 TEAM. Sorry I wasn't clearer on that as I've NEVER subscribed to the idea that W/L tells us everything about a QB. Never. So don't lump me in with those that do think that way.

 

The issue at hand for the folks making the decision on his future here is how much over and above that will TT help us achieve. Realistically. How much of difference maker is he, really, as the team is presently constructed? There are perfectly legitimate practical questions surrounding the decision. Is he more than the "bridge" people make him out to be or not? If they think he won't be, then is he really worth the time and money commitment at the expense of other positions on the team when another place holder might help deliver the same mediocre TEAM results?

 

Comes down to two basic questions: how much better, or how much worse can they be with or without TT. And that deserves all the time and consideration of everyone involved in the decision is taking. Especially now that McD and Co. have taken the time to break him down.

 

In your mind, did TT check every QB box for you the last two years? Some people can't answer that question without digressing into discussion about how bad the defense was, how lousy his pass blocking was, how decimated his receiving corps was. And I'm not saying those aren't mitigating factors that contributed to losing games; they certainly were. But I'm not interested in that as it's immaterial to analyzing his game tape. When McD and Co. sat down to pour over his game tapes for three weeks, they were focusing STRICTLY on what TT did relative to the execution of his position. Do you think they checked every box for TT? I know that TT gave them feedback, so they have a better contextual understanding of his execution than anyone here, but still, did they check every box in your opinion?

 

Any answer to that question, other than YES, begs every other question about the decision to keep him or not.

 

TT could have put the issue to rest once and for all with his play; left no question in doubt. It's a shame for him and the rest of us that wasn't the case. Not saying he is a bad QB as there is a lot to like about his play. Just not sure he's anything above and beyond middling at this point as there is a lot to be desired as well.

[Augie]

Oh for phuck sake.

 

The TEAM is a .500 TEAM. Sorry I wasn't clearer on that as I've NEVER subscribed to the idea that W/L tells us everything about a QB. Never. So don't lump me in with those that do think that way.

 

The issue at hand for the folks making the decision on his future here is how much over and above that will TT help us achieve. Realistically. How much of difference maker is he, really, as the team is presently constructed? There are perfectly legitimate practical questions surrounding the decision. Is he more than the "bridge" people make him out to be or not? If they think he won't be, then is he really worth the time and money commitment at the expense of other positions on the team when another place holder might help deliver the same mediocre TEAM results?

 

Comes down to two basic questions: how much better, or how much worse can they be with or without TT. And that deserves all the time and consideration of everyone involved in the decision is taking. Especially now that McD and Co. have taken the time to break him down.

 

In your mind, did TT check every QB box for you the last two years? Some people can't answer that question without digressing into discussion about how bad the defense was, how lousy his pass blocking was, how decimated his receiving corps was. And I'm not saying those aren't mitigating factors that contributed to losing games; they certainly were. But I'm not interested in that as it's immaterial to analyzing his game tape. When McD and Co. sat down to pour over his game tapes for three weeks, they were focusing STRICTLY on what TT did relative to the execution of his position. Do you think they checked every box for TT? I know that TT gave them feedback, so they have a better contextual understanding of his execution than anyone here, but still, did they check every box in your opinion?

 

Any answer to that question, other than YES, begs every other question about the decision to keep him or not.

 

TT could have put the issue to rest once and for all with his play; left no question in doubt. It's a shame for him and the rest of us that wasn't the case. Not saying he is a bad QB as there is a lot to like about his play. Just not sure he's anything above and beyond middling at this point as there is a lot to be desired as well.

 

That's a well stated explanation of your view. Too bad you're wrong! No, seriously kidding. Even Tom Cement Foot Brady doesn't check every box. And he's the best ever, in my book. Tyrod may be "middling", and maybe he still has room for growth. My main point is you don't ditch him until you have a better option. I'm not married to the guy, but don't cut him loose too soon. Find a better option before you move on. Those "excuses" for his performance are also reasons. But I totally get he needs to see the whole field and hit the right guy in stride. But with a good D and healthy WR's we should be able to see the playoffs with a middling QB.

[JohnC]

I like your posts, but saying that an individual player is a ".500 player" is a sign to me that a person likes simplistic explanations (because they're easy) and isn't sharp (or brave?) enough to dive deeper. I know you are not like this, but a lot of people are, and frankly it drives me freaking nuts.

 

Drew Brees has been 7-9 or 8-8 three years in a row, but assigning him a win-loss record is the height of idiocy. In every one of these seasons he has been without question one of the five best qbs in the league.

Mentioning TT in the same discussion with Drew Brees to make whatever point you want to make about TT makes little sense and offers little to the discussion. Whether Brees plays on a team that wins 4 games a year for five consecutive years doesn't tell you much how good Brees really is. Watch how he plays the position? That's where the focus of comparison between the players should be.

 

Brees can read defenses, can make throws in the middle of the field, has impeccable accuracy, has a feel for the pocket. Now compare those categories to how TT plays. It is like comparing an adult to a child.

 

What it comes down to for this woebegone franchise is what are your goals? What difference does it make whether you have one particular limited qb to another limited qb who is cheaper? I'm not overly concerned about the options because there isn't much difference between them.

 

As K-9 has stated in multiple posts it's not as if TT is being judged as if this is a hypothetical theory; he is being judged on actual performances over two years. What is most telling (at least to me) is that there wasn't much progression to his game in the second season. What you see is what you get----and it isn't something to get excited about.

 

I'm sure you are tired of me repeating what I have already stated. Whether the organization decides to keep TT or not is not really consequential. He is the caliber of qb that gets you nowhere meaningful. He is the caliber of qb who the coaches spend more time working around his limitations rather than utilizing his more positive skills.

 

The most important issue for this organization is who is going to be the future franchise qb. Even the TT advocates acknowledge that he is simply a bridge qb at best. What does that say about the caliber of qb he is?

[Augie]

I'm not comparing TT to Brees! Get that on the record!!!

[Nihilarian]

 

 

The whole "he's not capable of being more than a .500 QB" thing is where people's takes go cold.

 

It's an utterly "made-up" opinion.

 

With the top 10 defense they were supposed to field would the Bills have won a lot more games the past two seasons?

 

It took a bottom third of the league defense and terrible WR corps in year 2 to drag the Bills down to .500 with Taylor as QB.

 

And even THAT lowly of a defense was propped up some by a Taylor-lead offense that simply did not turn the ball over.

 

The reality is that we don't know what Taylor can accomplish yet........worse QB's than Tyrod have won SB's........including an awful 1:2 interception ratio Peyton Manning just two years ago.

 

I'm all for finding a better QB.......nobody on this board values the QB position more than I........but let's be honest here.......the past two seasons is the best quarterbacking in back-to-back years that the Bills have had in two decades........it's not like even approaching Taylor's level of play/impact in the near future is by any means a given.

 

I don't think Cosell was spot-on at all. Taylor is a trained under-center QB and returning to a familiar system with better passing game design that will allow him to do what he did for 8 years at Va Tech and Baltimore and should yield better passing results.

Excellent post and points. I couldn't agree more with everything here.

 

That bolded part is what I think escapes most fans and more importantly escapes the fools in the front office because they didn't draft him or even find him. Those mooks are still thinking they need an all out passing QB to make their choices of Sammy Watkins and Charles Clay look more valid.

 

Plus, most fans forget that the Bills fielded a turnstile at RT last season and opposing teams would generally put their best pass rusher on him. Not to mention the lack of talent in the Bills WR corps with Watkins hurt most of the season and Chris Hogan playing for the Patriots. The latter being another lame move by the current GM.

 

The main point here is that Taylor can still develop into a better downfield passer as he will be entering his third year of starting in this league. Build a better offense around him before making the decision he isn't good enough.To those fans out there that want a Deshaun Watson or some other rookie QB in this year's draft need to remember Vince Young, JaMarcus Russell. To add that someone new will more than likely need years to develop.

 

 

Perhaps if this FO gets their way and boots TT to the Cleveland Browns... which frees them up to draft Garrett and a Mike Williams or Corey Davis. Meanwhile, the Browns go on to make the playoffs before Buffalo, that might just be enough incentive for the owner to finally flush this thing.

[dave mcbride]

Mentioning TT in the same discussion with Drew Brees to make whatever point you want to make about TT makes little sense and offers little to the discussion. Whether Brees plays on a team that wins 4 games a year for five consecutive years doesn't tell you much how good Brees really is. Watch how he plays the position? That's where the focus of comparison between the players should be.

 

Brees can read defenses, can make throws in the middle of the field, has impeccable accuracy, has a feel for the pocket. Now compare those categories to how TT plays. It is like comparing an adult to a child.

 

What it comes down to for this woebegone franchise is what are your goals? What difference does it make whether you have one particular limited qb to another limited qb who is cheaper? I'm not overly concerned about the options because there isn't much difference between them.

 

As K-9 has stated in multiple posts it's not as if TT is being judged as if this is a hypothetical theory; he is being judged on actual performances over two years. What is most telling (at least to me) is that there wasn't much progression to his game in the second season. What you see is what you get----and it isn't something to get excited about.

 

I'm sure you are tired of me repeating what I have already stated. Whether the organization decides to keep TT or not is not really consequential. He is the caliber of qb that gets you nowhere meaningful. He is the caliber of qb who the coaches spend more time working around his limitations rather than utilizing his more positive skills.

 

The most important issue for this organization is who is going to be the future franchise qb. Even the TT advocates acknowledge that he is simply a bridge qb at best. What does that say about the caliber of qb he is?

 

Oh come on. I am talking about the frequent invocation of the qb record as a measure of a qb's skill / ability. I am not comparing the two players.

 

As for me, i'd be thrilled to go 10-6 and make the playoffs. At this point, i'll happily take that. I'm not crazy enough to think that this badly run organization is anywhere close to getting to 13-3, great qb or no. I'm a realist about this team and about my fandom. I hold no illusions about the Bills becoming dominant. In the next half decade, I would be willing to bet a large sum of money that 10-11 wins is their absolute ceiling. I think Taylor, more than any qb the bills have had since flutie and more than any current realistic choice in the draft /fa market, has the greatest potential to get the team go 10-6. That is where I am at. This is not a Super Bowl organization, at least as long as this management group is around.

 

As for Taylor, he has limits. But he is a likable, exciting player who is fun to watch. If you prefer watching Brian Hoyer, Mike Glennon, Jay Cutler, or whatever mediocre (probable) rookie they might be able to draft, you are welcome to them.

Edited March 6, 2017 by dave mcbride

[jeffismagic]

And here comes Jerry Sullivan.

 

LaCanfora's report said Pegula and McDermott have become "close," so the new guy will have sway. Does that mean the owner has moved away from his old management guard and thrown his trust to his latest best buddy? It's scary to think that an unproven, first-time head coach could get that sort of power over an NFL team.

If McDermott thinks he can make the playoffs right away with Taylor, he's no better than Gregg Williams. A little humility might be in order, and it figures to come soon enough.

http://buffalonews.com/2017/03/05/sullys-mailbag-mcdermott-needs-think-long-term/

[BADOLBILZ]

Bingo!

 

It doesn't matter if TT stays or goes. He isn't the guy and we should operate accordingly. This dumb franchise will probably keep him, pretend he is the guy, and not take a QB for 3 more years to build around TT's glorious march to 9-7. Because Bills.

 

 

As I said in the post above...........there is a misconception that there are a dozen or more QB's that can navigate a team with a bad defense, bad special teams and the worst WR corps in the league to the playoffs.

 

That list is two guys.....Rodgers and Brady.

 

It would be great to get a player like that........they should keep working on it..........but the success-level spread between what a guy like Tyrod can potentially do over the next few years and what guys like Brees and Rivers have been doing is not nearly as significant as some would like to think.

 

Is it worse to have a guy like Tyrod who produces while you feel compelled to try to upgrade upon him...........or a guy like Jay Cutler or even Matt Stafford.......who just teased organizations for years on end and their talent is too good to risk letting go and ego's to fragile to bring in competition?

[BobbyC81]

Oh come on. I am talking about the frequent invocation of the qb record as a measure of a qb's skill / ability. I am not comparing the two players.

As for me, i'd be thrilled to go 10-6 and make the playoffs. At this point, i'll happily take that. I'm not crazy enough to think that this badly run organization is anywhere close to getting to 13-3, great qb or no. I'm a realist about this team and about my fandom. I hold no illusions about the Bills becoming dominant. In the next half decade, I would be willing to bet a large sum of money that 10-11 wins is their absolute ceiling. I think Taylor, more than any qb the bills have had since flutie and more than any current realistic choice in the draft /fa market, has the greatest potential to get the team go 10-6. That is where I am at. This is not a Super Bowl organization, at least as long as this management group is around.

As for Taylor, he has limits. But he is a likable, exciting player who is fun to watch. If you prefer watching Brian Hoyer, Mike Glennon, Jay Cutler, or whatever mediocre (probable) rookie they might be able to draft, you are welcome to them.

I listened to the John Murphy interview with Greg Cosell. Cosell said Tyrod has reached his max and he also thinks Watson won't get any better. He also pointed out that Trubisky plays with a stiff front leg, like Alex Smith, which affects a player being able to have the needed power behind intermediate and deep throws. He's not sure that it's something that can be coached out of a player. Without an answer to "if not Tyrod then who?", Cosell's opinion is that he wouldn't take Taylor's option.

[Sisyphean Bills]

And here comes Jerry Sullivan.

 

LaCanfora's report said Pegula and McDermott have become "close," so the new guy will have sway. Does that mean the owner has moved away from his old management guard and thrown his trust to his latest best buddy? It's scary to think that an unproven, first-time head coach could get that sort of power over an NFL team.

If McDermott thinks he can make the playoffs right away with Taylor, he's no better than Gregg Williams. A little humility might be in order, and it figures to come soon enough.

http://buffalonews.com/2017/03/05/sullys-mailbag-mcdermott-needs-think-long-term/

 

What's more scary is to keep doubling down on a crew with a record that says they don't know their own blindspots.

[Hardcore Bills Fan]

I love Pegs, I really do, But what a joke the Bills and the Sabres have become since he bought them

[DefenseWins]

I love Pegs, I really do, But what a joke the Bills and the Sabres have become since he bought them

 

You mean they weren't jokes before he bought them??

 

Bills haven't made the playoffs in 17 years and you are blaming Pegs for that??

 

And when was the last time the Sabres were serious contenders??? How many years ago was that???

 

Pegs made a bad hire in Rex... Jury is still out on Tim Murray and really hasn't begun on McDermott yet... Whaley is still to be determined as well - though I have not been very impressed by what I've seen so far... The trade to get Watkins was a mistake IMHO...

[John from Riverside]

I love Pegs, I really do, But what a joke the Bills and the Sabres have become since he bought them

whaaaat?

[Hardcore Bills Fan]

 

You mean they weren't jokes before he bought them??

 

Bills haven't made the playoffs in 17 years and you are blaming Pegs for that??

 

And when was the last time the Sabres were serious contenders??? How many years ago was that???

 

Pegs made a bad hire in Rex... Jury is still out on Tim Murray and really hasn't begun on McDermott yet... Whaley is still to be determined as well - though I have not been very impressed by what I've seen so far... The trade to get Watkins was a mistake IMHO...

 

 

whaaaat?

 

Lets see Pegs went and brought in Pat Lafontaine who quit something like 5 months into the job.

TM has not made any blockbuster moves to get the Sabres going in the right direction and, yeah, its been 3 years. Fact is he didnt win the tank, the Oilers did. The tank was a stupid idea to begin with because now Eichel has almost nobody helping him and no defense. Yeah my favorite hockey team is a joke right now.

 

Do I really need to come on here and explain what a joke the Bills are right now? they fired a HC after less than 2 seasons. Have a dope for a GM that no eye for QB's or how truly valuable top draft picks are. Ralph in his prime would have cleaned house by now.

 

Bottom line is my rose colored glasses are off and i'm disgusted with how both my beloved teams are ran from top to bottom. Neither has direction right now.

 

I'm old school anyway, I believe in building to win and producing, not the crap i've been seeing from both teams.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Hardcore Bills Fan

[Billsman623]

Remind me again why anyone believes anything LaConfora reports about the Bills? 🙄