Sources: Chasm between Bills coaches, front office on Tyrod

[Augie]

14+ pages of breathless takes of unsubstantiated rumors proving Whaley is incompetent because he either wants to keep or get rid of Taylor.

Exactly, do we know if ANY of this is true? I'm not saying it's not, but do we know if it IS?

[mannc]

unless bills go 9-7 or better, this is very likely whaley's last year.

 

which is why I question getting rid of TT.....with TT you have chance at 9-7

 

with cardale or any rookie QB not lining up behind the dallas O-line, it is near impossible to play well in first season. game is just too fast and difficult to master mentally.

 

keep TT for 1,2 or 3 years AND draft your QB of the future on first or second day. that gives options from a position of strength.

 

lets say you cut TT, now you are dealing from a weak position.....that signals to league you are very likely picking a qb at #10......I say Cleveland uses the 12th and some of their extra picks to move ahead of us. SF, JETS & CLEV are all likely to take a qb before us. we will use the #10 on the 4th best QB ??....not good.

Very good summary of the situation. Even if we were able to trade TT for a late first round pick (which might be a pipe-dream anyway), we would be drafting from a position of weakness; Whaley might feel compelled to package multiple picks to move up for one of the top 2 QBs. Edited March 4, 2017 by mannc

[JM2009]

Anyone see where NE is interested in Brandon Marshall. Whatever we do, it won't be close to defeat them.

[K-9]

 

If the GM can't choose his players he should quit. I know I would.

Whaley deferred the decision to McD and Co. as part of the process of the complete roster analysis that applies to every player on the team, not just TT. Because it's the right thing to do with a new staff coming in and there's nothing unusual about that. The idea that personnel decisions aren't a collaborative effort is contrary to reality; no GM has "total" control over the roster in the sense that he says to the head coach"here's your players, have at it" without direct input from his HC. And rightly so. This insistence that Whaley is being unjustly handcuffed by a process he was privy to doesn't make sense.

 

It does sound ridiculous. Then again, if we're buying Pegula as the reason why Rex was hired, then it doesn't seem quite as far-fetched.

Look, if an owner wants to insist that anybody be a starter at any position, his employees have to toe the line or look elsewhere for work. Owners have final say on everything. That's a simple reality and it's never going to change. That doesn't mean they take things to ridiculous extremes though. That would be stupid and unattractive to prospective employees down the line. But for whatever reason, we fans insist on thinking the Bills are run like our favorite soap operas and that we're the only team in the league that operates like this.

[FireChan]

Sure. That's what must have happened. Pegula, in the face of the front office declared TT was untouchable. I wonder who Pegs likes at long snapper, too.

Or Pegula said, "wait til we have our HC and we'll all make a decision."

 

You know, instead of giving the mastermind at GM who orchestrated an incredible 7-9 season the power to make franchise-altering decisions without any dissent.

 

Because there's no functional difference between cutting TT 2 months ago and cutting him today, except that it isn't totally Whaley's call.

Edited March 4, 2017 by FireChan

[C.Biscuit97]

I respectfully but strenuously disagree with your comments. No I don't think that he had a big say on the EJ selection. And that doesn't bother me at all. The GM and the scouting department are the segments of the organization that are immersed in evaluating the prospects.

 

Was Marrone trying to win as many games as possible? Absolutely. That's his job. What do you want him to do work hard at losing so the team would have a better draft position? Of course not. I readily agree that Marrone rather quickly made a judgment on EJ that he was not good enough to be a franchise qb. Why was he so quick to make a conclusive assessment on him. What's obvious is obvious.That's why he was so adamant that Whaley get him a better option at qb. When all is said and done Marrone has proven to be right on his assessment of EJ. There are many warranted criticisms of the unlikable former coach but it shouldn't be for his correct assessment of EJ. Whaley belatedly had no choice but to acknowledge his mistake because it was clearly obvious to everyone who watched EJ in the games and on the practice field that he simply wasn't good enough to play in this league.

 

My criticism of Whaley that is growing by the day is not mostly for making the EJ selection. It was a mistake that doesn't need to be continuously rehashed. My criticism is that this lumbering organization that hasn't had a franchise qb in over twenty years continues to be too passive (for me) in their pursuit of a franchise qb. Enough is enough.

Good post John. My counters:

 

1) Marrone was an "offensive" coach. To hire an offensive coach and not let him have a huge say in picking a qb in the draft seems crazy to me. It's one of the reasons we were linked with Nassib before the draft.

 

If an offensive coach didn't have a say in picking the qb, it would be a huge problem right away. We never heard anything like that.

 

2) The development of EJ was the biggest problem between Marrone and Whaley. It seems like Marrone was looking for a way out early and was only looking to make his resume look as good as possible.

 

Whaley wanted to develop EJ. EJ had a similar rookie year to a lot of qbs. His first 4 games in his 2nd season were comparable to Derek Carr's first 4 games his second year. EJ got benched for a journeyman kitty cat and Carr played through it and got better.

 

Obviously it's a stretch to say EJ would ever get to Carr's level but it shows how short sighted the Bills development of Qbs is. If you draft a qb high, you need to give him at least 2 years no matter the results.

 

EJ probably wasn't going to succeed but the Bills develop of him was a complete joke.

 

3) I completely agree with our last point. The picks of Losman or EJ should have zero impact on you not drafting another qb high. The Bills have two major problems with drafting of qbs: 1) they never do (you can't win the lottery if you don't buy a ticket) and 2) their development of qbs is complete crap.

 

Stop waiting for next year because that will be a really good qb class. It's such BS. Draft a guy(S), have real offensive coaches ( not guys from crappy college teams who never worked in the NFL), and have a plan to develop them. I like what they have done with Jones. Now keep doing it.

[FireChan]

Whaley deferred the decision to McD and Co. as part of the process of the complete roster analysis that applies to every player on the team, not just TT. Because it's the right thing to do with a new staff coming in and there's nothing unusual about that. The idea that personnel decisions aren't a collaborative effort is contrary to reality; no GM has "total" control over the roster in the sense that he says to the head coach"here's your players, have at it" without direct input from his HC. And rightly so. This insistence that Whaley is being unjustly handcuffed by a process he was privy to doesn't make sense.

Look, if an owner wants to insist that anybody be a starter at any position, his employees have to toe the line or look elsewhere for work. Owners have final say on everything. That's a simple reality and it's never going to change. That doesn't mean they take things to ridiculous extremes though. That would be stupid and unattractive to prospective employees down the line. But for whatever reason, we fans insist on thinking the Bills are run like our favorite soap operas and that we're the only team in the league that operates like this.

Oh you mean like telling your HC that you think your OC sucks, leading to the firing of said OC, and then firing your HC 12 weeks later? After saying only a few weeks earlier that it's "a process," and there were going to be no major changes made? Oh no, the Pegulas never do anything extreme.

Edited March 4, 2017 by FireChan

[K-9]

Or Pegula said, "wait til we have our HC and we'll all make a decision."

 

You know, instead of giving the mastermind at GM who orchestrated an incredible 7-9 season the power to make franchise-altering decisions without any dissent.

 

Because there's no functional difference between cutting TT 2 months ago and cutting him today, except that it isn't totally Whaley's call.

That is SOP around the league. And nobody knows that better than Whaley. Which is why it's ridiculous to imagine otherwise.

 

And it's not about the functional difference between two months ago and now I(although I'd be interested in what you think that difference is, other than the new staff having had the time to make it's assessments); it's about the absurd notion put forth by LaConjecture that Whaley, Brandon, and Overdorf have wanted Taylor gone, regardless. Events and logic just don't support that claim.

[FireChan]

Good post John. My counters:

 

1) Marrone was an "offensive" coach. To hire an offensive coach and not let him have a huge say in picking a qb in the draft seems crazy to me. It's one of the reasons we were linked with Nassib before the draft.

 

If an offensive coach didn't have a say in picking the qb, it would be a huge problem right away. We never heard anything like that.

 

2) The development of EJ was the biggest problem between Marrone and Whaley. It seems like Marrone was looking for a way out early and was only looking to make his resume look as good as possible.

 

Whaley wanted to develop EJ. EJ had a similar rookie year to a lot of qbs. His first 4 games in his 2nd season were comparable to Derek Carr's first 4 games his second year. EJ got benched for a journeyman kitty cat and Carr played through it and got better.

 

Obviously it's a stretch to say EJ would ever get to Carr's level but it shows how short sighted the Bills development of Qbs is. If you draft a qb high, you need to give him at least 2 years no matter the results.

 

EJ probably wasn't going to succeed but the Bills develop of him was a complete joke.

 

3) I completely agree with our last point. The picks of Losman or EJ should have zero impact on you not drafting another qb high. The Bills have two major problems with drafting of qbs: 1) they never do (you can't win the lottery if you don't buy a ticket) and 2) their development of qbs is complete crap.

 

Stop waiting for next year because that will be a really good qb class. It's such BS. Draft a guy(S), have real offensive coaches ( not guys from crappy college teams who never worked in the NFL), and have a plan to develop them. I like what they have done with Jones. Now keep doing it.

The "EJ wasn't developed right" narrative needs to die eventually, right?

That is SOP around the league. And nobody knows that better than Whaley. Which is why it's ridiculous to imagine otherwise.

 

And it's not about the functional difference between two months ago and now I(although I'd be interested in what you think that difference is, other than the new staff having had the time to make it's assessments); it's about the absurd notion put forth by LaConjecture that Whaley, Brandon, and Overdorf have wanted Taylor gone, regardless. Events and logic just don't support that claim.

Excuse me, what?

 

Again, if the almighty meddling triumvirate of Whaley, Brandon, and Overdorf really wanted TT gone, I mean really wanted him gone, he would have been gone well before any new coach was hired, when there was simply no other opinion to be weighed. That simple. Then again, simple is often too complicated for LaConjecture.

 

The simple truth is there is discussion taking place. There are pros and cons for both keeping and cutting him. It should be deliberated. Especially after a new staff has had a chance to perform an in depth analysis.

 

It's too bad TT's play didn't put the issue to rest on its own merit.

How do these two statements groove?

[Buffalo86]

Look, if an owner wants to insist that anybody be a starter at any position, his employees have to toe the line or look elsewhere for work. Owners have final say on everything. That's a simple reality and it's never going to change. That doesn't mean they take things to ridiculous extremes though. That would be stupid and unattractive to prospective employees down the line. But for whatever reason, we fans insist on thinking the Bills are run like our favorite soap operas and that we're the only team in the league that operates like this.

People have been assuming the Bills wouldn't do the ridiculous things they've done for a long time. A 17-year playoff drought isn't just the result of bad luck. I'm sure there are other teams who operate like this, but their seasons probably end in early January just like ours.

[K-9]

Oh you mean like telling your HC that you think your OC sucks, leading to the firing of said OC, and then firing your HC 12 weeks later? After saying only a few weeks earlier that it's "a process," and there were going to be no major changes made? Oh no, the Pegulas never do anything extreme.

I don't think firing an OC is an extreme measure in the least, but that wasn't Pegula's idea, anyway. Players and other coaches, including Ryan, were questioning aspects of Roman's offense, anyway.

 

Are you under the impression that an owner should never question anything he is seeing on the field? It's his toy for crissakes.

[Bill_with_it]

With respect to the highlighted area your statement is what my point is. If there is a disagreement between the GM and the HC on this critical issue and the HC's position prevails that is a clear indication that the GM's authority has been eroded.

 

Where I disagree with you is if the GM believes that a player is not worth his contract then it should be the responsibility of the GM to make the final determination. Of course the GM is going to consult with the HC but in normal circumstances the GM has the final say on the roster while the HC determines how to use the roster.

 

If that is the setup here where the HC's view trumps the GM's view on who should be on the roster then it is inevitably going to be a cause of friction. I'm not talking about the normal discussions on personnel matter that include disagreements but the on the key issue of who has the final say in assembling the roster.

 

My point is simply if this setup as described is true I find it very troubling.

First time hc should be given his choice of qb plain and simple, especially seeing the recent track record of Whaley's poor qb decision making!

[K-9]

The "EJ wasn't developed right" narrative needs to die eventually, right?

Excuse me, what?

 

How do these two statements groove?

That GM's defer personnel decisions to newly hired coaches pending their roster wide analysis is standard.

 

The two statements DON'T groove, that's the point. LaConjecture made the assertion that Whaley, Brandon, and Overdorf want TT gone. If that were the case, they could have done that right after the season and before any new coach was even interviewed for the job. But they didn't. And the reason is obvious for anyone willing to think about it for a minute, but thinking isn't LaConjecture's strong point.

[JohnC]

Good post John. My counters:

 

1) Marrone was an "offensive" coach. To hire an offensive coach and not let him have a huge say in picking a qb in the draft seems crazy to me. It's one of the reasons we were linked with Nassib before the draft.

 

If an offensive coach didn't have a say in picking the qb, it would be a huge problem right away. We never heard anything like that.

 

2) The development of EJ was the biggest problem between Marrone and Whaley. It seems like Marrone was looking for a way out early and was only looking to make his resume look as good as possible.

 

Whaley wanted to develop EJ. EJ had a similar rookie year to a lot of qbs. His first 4 games in his 2nd season were comparable to Derek Carr's first 4 games his second year. EJ got benched for a journeyman kitty cat and Carr played through it and got better.

 

Obviously it's a stretch to say EJ would ever get to Carr's level but it shows how short sighted the Bills development of Qbs is. If you draft a qb high, you need to give him at least 2 years no matter the results.

 

EJ probably wasn't going to succeed but the Bills develop of him was a complete joke.

 

3) I completely agree with our last point. The picks of Losman or EJ should have zero impact on you not drafting another qb high. The Bills have two major problems with drafting of qbs: 1) they never do (you can't win the lottery if you don't buy a ticket) and 2) their development of qbs is complete crap.

 

Stop waiting for next year because that will be a really good qb class. It's such BS. Draft a guy(S), have real offensive coaches ( not guys from crappy college teams who never worked in the NFL), and have a plan to develop them. I like what they have done with Jones. Now keep doing it.

EJ was a third to fourth round talent who got picked in the first round. It didn't work out. Where I disagree with you is that it is my belief that no matter how much training would have been invested in EJ it still wouldn't have worked out. But that is history. Where we both agree is that this organization needs to be more pro-active in finding a franchise qb, most likely through the draft. I strongly believe that this draft has a number of good prospects that will be available to us. I don't want another year to go by where we pass on a Carr type prospect only to see that player elevate another franchise into being a contending team.

 

There are at least four good prospects, one of which should be available to us. Mahomes is growing on me but I'm open to the other candidates. Even if the qb is selected I prefer not rushing the qb until he is reasonably ready. But I strongly believe that we have to get the qb prospect on the roster sooner rather than later.

 

I appreciate your thoughtful responses.

First time hc should be given his choice of qb plain and simple, especially seeing the recent track record of Whaley's poor qb decision making!

That's not how I see it.

Edited March 4, 2017 by JohnC

[3rdand12]

For the sake of discussion let's assume the article paints an accurate picture. The picture is disturbing on many fronts. The organization negotiated a contract with TT that puts the player in a strong position and the team in a bind when the option decision comes up. Either the organization agrees to the deal or the player goes out to the market and gets a comparable or higher deal because of the tight market for qbs. What it boils down to is that Whaley doesn't want to sign the option at the price he negotiated at. He is the one dealing the cards and he is the one receiving the unappealing cards.

 

The most disturbing issue I find in the story (if true) is it appears that the new coach has more authority than the GM. That is not a healthy situation for any franchise, and it is not a smart way to run a football franchise. What the power arrangement vis a vis GM to HC that was structured by the owner did is take away authority from the GM that most, if not all, GMs have. That diminution of authority clearly is a sign of a lack of confidence by the owner towards the GM.

 

What is the cause of this non-conventional/traditional organizational structure for a NFL frachise? It all goes back to Whaley's inability to put together a competitive team. And that issue goes back mostly to his inability over a reasonable period of time to adequately address the qb situation, the essential ingredient to field a competitive team.

 

In the Watkins deal Whaley was bold and willing to give up a lot to secure a talented receiver in a rich receiver draft class. The mistake he made was that he should have used his willingness to gamble for a qb instead of a receiver.

 

This organization hasn't had a franchise qb since the retirement of Jim Kelly, over twenty years ago. In a system designed for parity this franchise hasn't been in the playoffs for 18 years. The two situations are inextricably linked. That is a disgrace and an embarrassment.

McD will push out Whaley and bring someone without a personal agenda in place. Book it.

Whaley is no longer the smartest guy in the room. I think that is one of the reasons SM was hired

[Niagara Bill]

This is a debate that no one can win but we do learn something from this article.

Sept 8 2009....days before the season kickoff, the starting offensive left tackle (Trent Edwards was the QB) # 68 Langston Walker was cut. We then made the decision to start the ever popular and future hall of famer Demetrius Bell.

I recall the day, Dick Jauron head coach was blindsided by the press and later admitted he knew nothing of the transaction. His O line had been set and was planning for the season when this occurred. While I have no respect for Jauron as a Head Coach it was apparent neither did the front office.

Here is what I see.

In 2009 the team owner was different, the GM was different, the team President was different, the head coach was different, the record was about the same and the CONSTANT here is Overdorf who controlled the cap budget and contracts and set the rooster using his financial skills (experience is a great thing but can perpetuate the same outcomes)

He is doing it again with our QB. Pencil pushers should never be given power in maters of people, personnel, or quality.

 

Overdorf should be fired and the Pegula should know better than to allow an accountant to make decisions in their business.

[3rdand12]

I'll stand by it. If it comes out that Whaley was against any decision to retain TT and complains about it, he will be gone post draft. He's on a short leash.

he is just pissed it wasn't his idea to bring him in, Dude is childish

[K-9]

People have been assuming the Bills wouldn't do the ridiculous things they've done for a long time. A 17-year playoff drought isn't just the result of bad luck. I'm sure there are other teams who operate like this, but their seasons probably end in early January just like ours.

A 17 year drought is the result of getting things wrong for an impossibly long time. And our errors cross over owners, GMs, coaches, and players alike. Our record of ineptitude is unique.

 

None of that means that Pegula told Whaley, Brandon, and Overdorf they had to wait to cut TT until after the new coach had a say. Whaley knew that anyway. It's just the correct thing to do.

 

There are pros and cons to keeping or letting him go and it deserves discussion among the principals involved. I'm not sure why that's a bad thing. Not at all.

 

I'll just wrap it up and repeat that it's too bad TT's play didn't put the issue to rest on its own.

[FireChan]

I don't think firing an OC is an extreme measure in the least, but that wasn't Pegula's idea, anyway. Players and other coaches, including Ryan, were questioning aspects of Roman's offense, anyway.

 

Are you under the impression that an owner should never question anything he is seeing on the field? It's his toy for crissakes.

Firing a OC 2 weeks into the season, the day after your defense let up 500 yards to Ryan Fitzpatrick is a little extreme to me. And it was reported they expressed their offensive malcontent to the HC.

 

However, he can do whatever he likes. I just happen to think if that mess went down on the Redskins, we'd be thanking our stars we don't have an owner does stuff like that.

 

That GM's defer personnel decisions to newly hired coaches pending their roster wide analysis is standard.

 

The two statements DON'T groove, that's the point. LaConjecture made the assertion that Whaley, Brandon, and Overdorf want TT gone. If that were the case, they could have done that right after the season and before any new coach was even interviewed for the job. But they didn't. And the reason is obvious for anyone willing to think about it for a minute, but thinking isn't LaConjecture's strong point.

Unless Pegula said, "Wait for the new HC," then.

 

I'm actually really confused at what you're trying to say.

Edited March 4, 2017 by FireChan

[3rdand12]

EJ was a third to fourth round talent who got picked in the first round. It didn't work out. Where I disagree with you is that it is my belief that no matter how much training would have been invested in EJ it still wouldn't have worked out. But that is history. Where we both agree is that this organization needs to be more pro-active in finding a franchise qb, most likely through the draft. I strongly believe that this draft has a number of good prospects that will be available to us. I don't want another year to go by where we pass on a Carr type prospect only to see that player elevate another franchise into being a contending team.

 

There are at least four good prospects, one of which should be available to us. Mahomes is growing on me but I'm open to the other candidates. Even if the qb is selected I prefer not rushing the qb until he is reasonably ready. But I strongly believe that we have to get the qb prospect on the roster sooner rather than later.

 

I appreciate your thoughtful responses.

That's not how I see it.

We disagree. Coach should always make the final decision on qb. GM just lines up the prospects and tries to sell it.