FireChan Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 (edited) They felt the opposite; that the surgery could wait until after the season. Which I've repeated several times. Ironically, he could have played with the harness like he did at Clemson. I agree. It is nice for FireChan to point that out. It further underscores my point. Simple fact is, the butt hurt fan base was outraged that the hyped up #1 pick wasn't gonna be available for a portion of his rookie year and somebody has to pay for that dammit! We were LIED to! Manipulated! Typical overreaction by a naive, misinformed, and frustrated fan base that demands a pound of flesh when it's not necessary. They took a gamble and lost. Rational people readily understand these things happen. Others, not so much. As to the rest of your post, I can appreciate the irony of Lawson's injury clearing a better path for Alexander to exploit. I'm just gonna dismiss the "damaged goods" and how much worse our defense might have been. You tend to move the goal posts and conflate points in your arguments I've noticed. You can save that for others more inclined to that kind of discussion. Like it or not, the fans are a key factor in all this. You seem to flip between, "the fans are naive and irrational," to "Whaley needed to do damage control to appease the fans." Going forward, if I was Whaley, I wouldn't take a guy who may need surgery in the first, proclaim him a day one starter over a veteran, gush about how he's going to contribute his rookie year, then throw my hands up in wonder when the fans get upset that he needs surgery and is gonna miss 3/4's of the season. PR 101, really. In contrast, here is what Caldwell said about Jack post-draft: “We want to be great,” Caldwell said Friday night after picking Jack. “We’ve got to take chances. We’ve been pretty conservative in our time here and in our philosophy in drafting, and in some of our free-agent acquisitions. There comes a point in time where we’ve got to close the talent gap, and you’re not going to do that without taking risks. This is one that we just felt [was a] calculated risk. He’s going to play out his contract and hopefully he’s here for 10, 12 years and we’ll look back at it as a good thing for the Jaguars.’’ No "day one starter" talk here. I can't even find a comment about the Boys taking Jaylon Smith either. But of course, it's the "butt-hurt fans" fault that Whaley is one of the most incompetent GM's in the league when it comes to putting his foot in his mouth and orchestrating his own fate. Would it make you feel better to know Lawson could have played with the shoulder harness like he did for most of his college career? That was an option after all. Question: what does Whaley mean by "nothing to worry about?" I submit what he means by that may be entirely different than what you take it to mean. Worry to Whaley might mean CAREER THREATENING, which there was never any indication of so, nothing to worry about. Whereas you may take it to mean SEASON THREATENING, which may be everything to worry about on your scale. Sorry, I just don't feel it rises to your level of outrage. It might. Except he didn't explain, because he was trying to to sell the fans a bill of goods. Per usual. Edited February 28, 2017 by FireChan
K-9 Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 Like it or not, the fans are a key factor in all this. You seem to flip between, "the fans are naive and irrational," to "Whaley needed to do damage control to appease the fans." Going forward, if I was Whaley, I wouldn't take a guy who may need surgery in the first, proclaim him a day one starter over a veteran, gush about how he's going to contribute his rookie year, then throw my hands up in wonder when the fans get upset that he needs surgery and is gonna miss 3/4's of the season. PR 101, really. In contrast, here is what Caldwell said about Jack post-draft: “We want to be great,” Caldwell said Friday night after picking Jack. “We’ve got to take chances. We’ve been pretty conservative in our time here and in our philosophy in drafting, and in some of our free-agent acquisitions. There comes a point in time where we’ve got to close the talent gap, and you’re not going to do that without taking risks. This is one that we just felt [was a] calculated risk. He’s going to play out his contract and hopefully he’s here for 10, 12 years and we’ll look back at it as a good thing for the Jaguars.’’ No "day one starter" talk here. I can't even find a comment about the Boys taking Jaylon Smith either. But of course, it's the "butt-hurt fans" fault that Whaley is one of the most incompetent GM's in the league when it comes to putting his foot in his mouth and orchestrating his own fate. GMs hyping their draft picks. Who woulda thought? "Day one starter" speaks to ability and potential and is not the same as penciling him in without having to beat out anybody else, btw. I should write a translation dictionary for GM speak. Caldwell did a good job. Whaley is not Caldwell. Again, you are in for disappointment by demanding that he be that way. If Whaley chose Lawson in the 2nd, like the Jags did with Jack, would that have made the ensuing events easier to take? Sorry if my use of the term "butt hurt" offended but that really is the underlying reason for the outrage. Fans felt ripped off that their expectations for Lawson would not be realized his rookie season and no amount of spin from the front office was gonna make a difference. I strongly doubt anybody felt worse about it than Lawson and Whaley.
FireChan Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 (edited) GMs hyping their draft picks. Who woulda thought? "Day one starter" speaks to ability and potential and is not the same as penciling him in without having to beat out anybody else, btw. I should write a translation dictionary for GM speak. Caldwell did a good job. Whaley is not Caldwell. Again, you are in for disappointment by demanding that he be that way. If Whaley chose Lawson in the 2nd, like the Jags did with Jack, would that have made the ensuing events easier to take? Sorry if my use of the term "butt hurt" offended but that really is the underlying reason for the outrage. Fans felt ripped off that their expectations for Lawson would not be realized his rookie season and no amount of spin from the front office was gonna make a difference. I strongly doubt anybody felt worse about it than Lawson and Whaley. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here that you just don't remember what was said. "And Whaley made it clear moments after the pick that Lawson would start immediately... over the other Lawson. "He walks in, Day 1, as the starter opposite Jerry Hughes," Whaley said. "So he can set the edge from the outside, he can rush speed to power and that gives us two nice rushers off the edge. And then you've got the push in the middle with our defensive tackles. I think this is again, a guy who has the versatile, when we go nickel or sub, he can go inside and use his quickness on the interior offensive linemen. "First day, coming off the bus, he's starting." This actually exactly means Shaq was penciled in over Manny to start opposite Hughes. If Manny thrashed him in camp, would he start? Of course not. But that wasn't expected to happen either. It's funny. You play the "what does Whaley mean by this exactly" card, yet you seem to always know. Very curious indeed. I know another poster who used to always play that game too. He was incorrect often. How many times do I have to explain that the expectations were set by our rocks for brains GM? Caldwell isn't getting killed for the Jack pick because he managed expectations. That's a part of the job, like it or not. If Whaley goes, "Shaq Lawson is an extraordinary talent and we expect him to be a high level starter for years to come. We were not concerned about the short term effects of a possible shoulder injury on the player we know he will turn out to be," he gets about a million feet more of rope. But no. He had to take cues from Rex the buffoon and make drunken boasts that blew up in his face. And if your point is that Whaley will never be that guy.? That he'll always be the laughingstock who opines glowingly on every player he drafts like they're his soulmate? Then he better buckle up for the next couple years of him getting killed over and over again. Just like Rex. Or find a QB. That's really the magic bullet for all this window dressing. Edited February 28, 2017 by FireChan
K-9 Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here that you just don't remember what was said. "And Whaley made it clear moments after the pick that Lawson would start immediately... over the other Lawson. "He walks in, Day 1, as the starter opposite Jerry Hughes," Whaley said. "So he can set the edge from the outside, he can rush speed to power and that gives us two nice rushers off the edge. And then you've got the push in the middle with our defensive tackles. I think this is again, a guy who has the versatile, when we go nickel or sub, he can go inside and use his quickness on the interior offensive linemen. "First day, coming off the bus, he's starting." This actually exactly means Shaq was penciled in over Manny to start opposite Hughes. If Manny thrashed him in camp, would he start? Of course not. But that wasn't expected to happen either. It's funny. You play the "what does Whaley mean by this exactly" card, yet you seem to always know. Very curious indeed. I know another poster who used to always play that game too. He was incorrect often. How many times do I have to explain that the expectations were set by our rocks for brains GM? Caldwell isn't getting killed for the Jack pick because he managed expectations. That's a part of the job, like it or not. If Whaley goes, "Shaq Lawson is an extraordinary talent and we expect him to be a high level starter for years to come. We were not concerned about the short term effects of a possible shoulder injury on the player we know he will turn out to be," he gets about a million feet more of rope. But no. He had to take cues from Rex the buffoon and make drunken boasts that blew up in his face. And if your point is that Whaley will never be that guy.? That he'll always be the laughingstock who opines glowingly on every player he drafts like they're his soulmate? Then he better buckle up for the next couple years of him getting killed over and over again. Just like Rex. Or find a QB. That's really the magic bullet for all this window dressing. Look, this is tiring. Bottom line is Whaley was talking out of his ass if he REALLY thought that he could just pencil Lawson in as the day one starter. That is COMPLETELY out of his purview; a COACHES decision ENTIRELY. Period. Whaley knew that. Which is why I attribute ALL of his post draft hyperbole about Lawson to just that: hype. I don't EVER expect Whaley to sound like Caldwell. Never. And I think your comparison to the Jack situation is a bit of a stretch. Jack was a top 5 talent that dropped due to injury concerns and getting him in the 2nd was going to be considered great value, regardless if he made an immediate impact or even an impact in the near future. I like Caldwell and have a tone of respect for him as others I know have as well, but he could afford to be a bit magnanimous in his wording. There were NO expectations for Jack to perform like the top 5 pick he was once considered. Contrast that with the expectations for Lawson. I'd like to see that QB, too. Great QBs cure a lot of ills as you indicate. In the meantime I refuse to get bent out of shape by events and descriptions of events I can often anticipate.
Coach Tuesday Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 What business did Whaley have taking that gamble, K-9? That's my issue, not the veracity of what he did or didn't say. Gambling with that pick was inexcusable unless it was for a much higher-ceiling player like a QB or Miles Jack.
CommonCents Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 What business did Whaley have taking that gamble, K-9? That's my issue, not the veracity of what he did or didn't say. Gambling with that pick was inexcusable unless it was for a much higher-ceiling player like a QB or Miles Jack. Whaley found a way to convince everyone that his draft board looked like this heading into the war room 1.Lawson 2. Ragland Both those players also happened to play at positions of NEED. What a lucky draft. Right.
John from Riverside Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 What business did Whaley have taking that gamble, K-9? That's my issue, not the veracity of what he did or didn't say. Gambling with that pick was inexcusable unless it was for a much higher-ceiling player like a QB or Miles Jack. What qb? The injured Miles Jack?
Coach Tuesday Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 What qb? The injured Miles Jack? Paxton Lynch And yes, instead of the injured Shaq Lawson
K-9 Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 What business did Whaley have taking that gamble, K-9? That's my issue, not the veracity of what he did or didn't say. Gambling with that pick was inexcusable unless it was for a much higher-ceiling player like a QB or Miles Jack. What business did Whaley have to take that gamble? That is his business. But the gamble wasn't high risk. Easily repaired labrum tear in the shoulder that he could have played with had he insisted on not electing to have the surgery sooner than later. It was better to get it done earlier though, imo. But your point is a good one; what Whaley said has nothing to do with anything. The merits will be born out pending Lawson's development as a player. Hype or no hype, that's where it always gets told. Regarding Jack, what do you think the consensus would have been around here if we took him at 19? I mean other than Bandit sporting wood for the rest of the draft? Lesean McCoy was the subject btw Apologies. I now return to the regularly scheduled discussion in this thread.
Coach Tuesday Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 With Grigson and Baalke out of the way, his business is being arguably the worst GM in the NFL. And if they get rid of Shady and Tyrod this offseason, he gets to keep the trophy.
John from Riverside Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 Paxton Lynch And yes, instead of the injured Shaq Lawson Paxton Lynch who could not get on the field in front of a 7th round pick? Myles Jack didnt show much in season 1 I mean....it could all change in year 2 I guess
K-9 Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 (edited) Whaley found a way to convince everyone that his draft board looked like this heading into the war room 1.Lawson 2. Ragland Both those players also happened to play at positions of NEED. What a lucky draft. Right. Lawson was a consensus top 20 pick. It's not unreasonable to think he was the best player on many boards at 19, not just Buffalo's. Agree on Ragland. If you listen to GMs around the league after their drafts, you'll see Whaley's hyperbole isn't any different than anybody else's for the most part. Edited February 28, 2017 by K-9
GunnerBill Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 My take on Shaq (not sure how we got onto him) has always been: - I had a very high grade on him this time last year. He was a top 10 player on my board. - I find it very much conceivable that the Bills did too. - Therefore I don't think they ever expected him to be there at #19. Nor did I. - If you watch the inside the draft room video there is a child-like excitement when they realise Shaq is likely going to drop to them. - At that moment I don't believe either Whaley or Monos stopped to ask the question "are we sure about the shoulder? Did that check out?" The confusion that followed was likely a result, in my opinion, of a team that never believed it was going to have to give thought to Shaq's shoulder. I don't believe they really could have had a legitimate expectation either way on draft day because I don't believe they ever thought about it.
John from Riverside Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 My take on Shaq (not sure how we got onto him) has always been: - I had a very high grade on him this time last year. He was a top 10 player on my board. - I find it very much conceivable that the Bills did too. - Therefore I don't think they ever expected him to be there at #19. Nor did I. - If you watch the inside the draft room video there is a child-like excitement when they realise Shaq is likely going to drop to them. - At that moment I don't believe either Whaley or Monos stopped to ask the question "are we sure about the shoulder? Did that check out?" The confusion that followed was likely a result, in my opinion, of a team that never believed it was going to have to give thought to Shaq's shoulder. I don't believe they really could have had a legitimate expectation either way on draft day because I don't believe they ever thought about it. well guess what.....we got a 100 percent healthy Shaq Lawson in the bullpen! Cant wait
GunnerBill Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 well guess what.....we got a 100 percent healthy Shaq Lawson in the bullpen! Cant wait And playing as a 4-3 end which is I believe his rightful spot in the NFL. I'm still a believer in the kid. I think he will have a good year for us.
jimmy10 Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 That post took you 3 minutes to write. You have 12 minutes left. Sweet. They carry over like cell phone minutes, right?
KellyToTasker Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 was he in the marines? I had no idea. Anyway he reminds me of a drill sergeant! Yes. I thought that was your reference. Check this out: http://www.mcrc.marines.mil/News/News-Article-Display/Article/519384/former-marine-serves-raider-nation/
Webster Guy Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 Nothing to see here. Before any personnel moves are proposed or commented on, please at least take a look at that players contract, what the restrictions and cap numbers are, then weigh that against production and team value. In other words, think before you post. Oh, and throw in some humor if you can. This can be such a better message board.....
YoloinOhio Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 Warren Sharp @SharpFootball Warren Sharp Retweeted ProFootballTalk What McCoy did last year, factoring in everything from run freq to strength of sked to QB production, it was nothing short of incredible. Warren Sharp @SharpFootball Feb 26 Not only did BUF face the #1 most difficult schedule of run defenses, they went run heavy (despite an extremely easy sked of pass defenses). Warren Sharp @SharpFootball Feb 26 Run heavy is an understatement: massively predictable. And in 1-score gms from own 20 onward, #1 run rate, 10% above avg. Yet Shady crushed. Warren Sharp @SharpFootball Feb 26 Through a game's first 3 qtrs @CutonDime25 avg'd 6 YPC (BEST in NFL) over 175 att vs #1 hardest run Ds in a predictable, run heavy off. Warren Sharp @SharpFootball 23h23 hours ago To dive further into game theory, when a gm was close BUF predictably ran on 1st dwn 65% of the time! 13% above avg, way more than other tms 3 replies 10 retweets 10 likes Warren Sharp @SharpFootball 23h23 hours ago How did @CutonDime25 do w Ds able to predict a run? Led the NFL w 6.1 YPC on 1D thru 3rdQ. 53% success rate. And TONS of inside production.
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