Saxum Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 One thing that Tasker said late in the year stuck with me, "you can win with him but don't win because of him." Yes this I agree with other than winning because he runs for TD which other QBs could not make. But he does not appear to have the arm (or weapon) for the 400-500 yard shootout game which all teams need occasionally.
jeffismagic Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 The Tyrod fans keep saying everything is going to be the same and better. Or the offense will do great, now we can patch up the defense. How will all this happen when you are now taking money away from other positions and giving it to Tyrod? How will this happen when players that were inexpensive are now expensive or gone? Assuming you give Tyrod 30 million+ then Roberts Woods, #2 WR Marquise Goodwin, #3-4 WR Stephon Gilmore, #1 CB Lorenzo Alexander, 3-4 EDGE Zach Brown, LB Percy Harvin, WR (2 years Ago #2 WR) Corbin Bryant, DT backup Leger Douzable, DT backup This also doesn't take into account that the pre-Rex defense that the fanboys imagine is NOT COMING back. Mario Williams old and gone. Kyle Williams old and could retire. Jerry Hughes injured last year. Marcel Dareus most likely to rebound in 4-3 defense but he is ??? because of behavior and suspensions. Shaq Lawson lost his rookie year and did not look like a high first rounder. Reggie Ragland coming back from a torn ACL and Bills are changing scheme to something that could ask him to do things he is not as good at.
Dave in Avon Lake now Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 If he's still here this year, my hope is he starts to see the open guys and gets a better feel for the middle of the field and anticipation passes. It may be a pipe dream, but it still beats losing games because of interceptions. He finally showed something in the Miami game and lets see where it goes. And at least we won't have to wait 100 years for a winner to emerge. It only takes one good run to get a Superbowl. I suspect we do it with defense like Denver, Baltimore and Tampa Bay did.
ndirish1978 Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 If he's still here this year, my hope is he starts to see the open guys and gets a better feel for the middle of the field and anticipation passes. It may be a pipe dream, but it still beats losing games because of interceptions. He finally showed something in the Miami game and lets see where it goes. And at least we won't have to wait 100 years for a winner to emerge. It only takes one good run to get a Superbowl. I suspect we do it with defense like Denver, Baltimore and Tampa Bay did. This is really the crux of the argument for keeping TT. This was the single game in which he looked to show growth.
jeffismagic Posted February 23, 2017 Posted February 23, 2017 This is really the crux of the argument for keeping TT. This was the single game in which he looked to show growth. You can't commit to a QB based on one game playing a defense with a terrible back 7. Ryan Fitzpatrick has had big games and took the Jets to a 10-6 record 2 years ago. Did they back up the Brinks truck? No, they finally gave in and paid him for one more year and that was a HUGE MISTAKE.
jeffismagic Posted February 23, 2017 Posted February 23, 2017 Tyrod isn't Fitz. Fitz always was a turnover machine. He had one anamoly of a year with the Jets and even that year he showed his true colors in week 17. Tyrod is a below average QB that has shown time and time again he cannot make plays against teams we need to beat to get to the playoffs, cannot run a 2 minute drive, and cannot make all the NFL throws. I like him personally and his leadership but, like Fitz, his throwing makes him someone you cannot commit to as the answer at QB. He can fill in while you are working to get a QB and he did his job the last 2 years. Now, the decision has to be made if you want to spend more than 30 million on a QB that can't make all the throws and build a team and offense around him. I think it's an easy no for me. The goal of the Bills should not be mediocrity but building a championship team.
John from Riverside Posted February 23, 2017 Posted February 23, 2017 Tyrod is a below average QB that has shown time and time again he cannot make plays against teams we need to beat to get to the playoffs, cannot run a 2 minute drive, and cannot make all the NFL throws. I like him personally and his leadership but, like Fitz, his throwing makes him someone you cannot commit to as the answer at QB. He can fill in while you are working to get a QB and he did his job the last 2 years. Now, the decision has to be made if you want to spend more than 30 million on a QB that can't make all the throws and build a team and offense around him. I think it's an easy no for me. The goal of the Bills should not be mediocrity but building a championship team. bla bla bla any new material?
jeffismagic Posted February 23, 2017 Posted February 23, 2017 bla bla bla any new material? If we keep Tyrod and win 6 games or less next year will you apologize for advocating spending 30+ million on him?
Maury Ballstein Posted February 23, 2017 Posted February 23, 2017 bla bla bla any new material? There is an H in blah. There is an O in you.
hondo in seattle Posted February 23, 2017 Posted February 23, 2017 (edited) The Tyrod fans keep saying everything is going to be the same and better. Or the offense will do great, now we can patch up the defense. How will all this happen when you are now taking money away from other positions and giving it to Tyrod? How will this happen when players that were inexpensive are now expensive or gone? Assuming you give Tyrod 30 million+ then Roberts Woods, #2 WR Marquise Goodwin, #3-4 WR Stephon Gilmore, #1 CB Lorenzo Alexander, 3-4 EDGE Zach Brown, LB Percy Harvin, WR (2 years Ago #2 WR) Corbin Bryant, DT backup Leger Douzable, DT backup This also doesn't take into account that the pre-Rex defense that the fanboys imagine is NOT COMING back. Mario Williams old and gone. Kyle Williams old and could retire. Jerry Hughes injured last year. Marcel Dareus most likely to rebound in 4-3 defense but he is ??? because of behavior and suspensions. Shaq Lawson lost his rookie year and did not look like a high first rounder. Reggie Ragland coming back from a torn ACL and Bills are changing scheme to something that could ask him to do things he is not as good at. I'm not sure why you have to be rude and call those who don't want to release Tyrod, "fanboys." Ad hominem attacks don't add to the pleasant Bills camaraderie we share here nor to the logic of your argument. But I actually agree with you - to a degree. I think there was a lot of chemistry last year between Roman's play designs, Lynn's play calls, Shady's ability as a running back, and Tyrod's contribution as a dynamic dual threat QB. The Bills scored 27 points per game when TT was QB and Lynn OC. That'll be hard to equal in 2017. So I don't think the offense will be better this upcoming year. I'm not confident this year's offense will be built around the talents of the players we have as effectively as last year's offense. We might actually see more of TT's weaknesses in 2017 and less of his strengths. It's a worry and I hope I'm wrong. But I think the O would regress more without Tyrod than with him. And I'm hoping that an expected decline in offensive scoring will be offset by a stingier defense. QB is such an important position you've got to play the best one you can find. Right now, I don't see any better options than Tyrod. So call me a "fanboy" too if it makes you feel better, but I think TT's worth the cap cost and ought to start till we find someone better. Edited February 23, 2017 by hondo in seattle
jeffismagic Posted February 23, 2017 Posted February 23, 2017 (edited) I'm not sure why you have to be rude and call those who don't want to release Tyrod, "fanboys." Ad hominem attacks don't add to the pleasant Bills camaraderie we share here nor to the logic of your argument. But I actually agree with you - to a degree. I think there was a lot of chemistry last year between Roman's play designs, Lynn's play calls, Shady's ability as a running back, and Tyrod's contribution as a dynamic dual threat QB. The Bills scored 27 points per game when TT was QB and Lynn OC. That'll be hard to equal in 2017. So I don't think the offense will be better this upcoming year. I'm not confident this year's offense will be built around the talents of the players we have as effectively as last year's offense. We might actually see more of TT's weaknesses in 2017 and less of his strengths. It's a worry and I hope I'm wrong. But I think the O would regress more without Tyrod than with him. And I'm hoping that an expected decline in offensive scoring will be offset by a stingier defense. QB is such an important position you've got to play the best one you can find. Right now, I don't see any better options than Tyrod. So call me a "fanboy" too if it makes you feel better, but I think TT's worth the cap cost and ought to start till we find someone better. I wasn't referring to TT advocates. "Fanboys" was a jab at people who imagine the defense will turn top 5 because Rex is gone. Good points on the offense where I agree with you completely that Roman + Lynn was lightning in a bottle that might not be caught again. Edited February 23, 2017 by jeffismagic
GoBills808 Posted February 23, 2017 Posted February 23, 2017 I'm not sure why you have to be rude and call those who don't want to release Tyrod, "fanboys." Ad hominem attacks don't add to the pleasant Bills camaraderie we share here nor to the logic of your argument. But I actually agree with you - to a degree. I think there was a lot of chemistry last year between Roman's play designs, Lynn's play calls, Shady's ability as a running back, and Tyrod's contribution as a dynamic dual threat QB. The Bills scored 27 points per game when TT was QB and Lynn OC. That'll be hard to equal in 2017. So I don't think the offense will be better this upcoming year. I'm not confident this year's offense will be built around the talents of the players we have as effectively as last year's offense. We might actually see more of TT's weaknesses in 2017 and less of his strengths. It's a worry and I hope I'm wrong. But I think the O would regress more without Tyrod than with him. And I'm hoping that an expected decline in offensive scoring will be offset by a stingier defense. QB is such an important position you've got to play the best one you can find. Right now, I don't see any better options than Tyrod. So call me a "fanboy" too if it makes you feel better, but I think TT's worth the cap cost and ought to start till we find someone better. Do you think Taylor is better than Cousins? Or Smith? Are you willing to take a shot on a mid rounder like Carr or Wilson or Prescott? If you don't see better options it's not because there aren't any.
BuffaloHokie13 Posted February 23, 2017 Posted February 23, 2017 Do you think Taylor is better than Cousins? Or Smith? Are you willing to take a shot on a mid rounder like Carr or Wilson or Prescott? If you don't see better options it's not because there aren't any. Cousins isn't expected to be available at this point, and Tyrod has been a complete statistical wash if not slightly better than Smith (Who also isn't available, btw) over the past 2 years. Carr was the 36th overall pick, which isn't really a mid-rounder in my eyes, but regardless yes. The Bill should definitely take a shot if there's a prospect they like in the draft, always. I don't feel there are any QB's worth the 10th pick, but I wouldn't be against a trade back into the 20's or so. Also would be fine with using the 2nd or 3rd on QB.
SectionC3 Posted February 23, 2017 Posted February 23, 2017 It certainly isn't common. It just seems to make some sense in this case. The feeling that I get is that the Bills would love to keep Tyrod (but not be tied to him for more than a year or 2). Pushing the cap hit forward allows them to that. In my scenario it is almost certainly a 2 year deal. You would only have a $4M dead cap hit in year 3. If he proves in that 1st year or 2 that he is the answer for you, you can extend him. If not, you have already cleared the deck. You will have probably ended up paying him roughly $20M a year for 2 years. It is kind of like a cheaper way to use the franchise tag twice. I am not saying that it is the perfect solution but it makes some sense in my head anyways. Completely agree with this idea. Tyrod is the bridge and, if we find somebody better in the next year or two, it would be much easier to move on from Tyrod insofar as the cap is concerned. Nyone we find who is better than Tyrod almost certainly will be cheaper than Tyrod, and if we luck into a Dak Prescott scenario we would only have to pay Tyrod big bucks for a year or two - while the guy who is actually worth that money is on a rookie deal. The interesting thing about pulling money forward for Tyrod is that it suggests that we may have an unforeseen cap casualty or two. It wouldn't surprise me if Wood is that surprise. In the same vein, i wonder if jerry hughes is a candidate to be moved. I have pondered the idea of paying Alexander significant money (but less than Hughes money) for two years, trading Hughes, and moving Alexander into Hughes's role and moving Hughes's lousy attitude out of town.
John from Riverside Posted February 23, 2017 Posted February 23, 2017 The Tyrod fans keep saying everything is going to be the same and better. Or the offense will do great, now we can patch up the defense. How will all this happen when you are now taking money away from other positions and giving it to Tyrod? How will this happen when players that were inexpensive are now expensive or gone? Assuming you give Tyrod 30 million+ then Roberts Woods, #2 WR Can be replaced in draft....Corey Davis looks like a good option and this looks like a good draft for wideout Marquise Goodwin, #3-4 WR That guy should be replaced no matter WHAT happens.....but if it is the speed you are worried about we drafted listenbee already Stephon Gilmore, #1 CB We can tag him Lorenzo Alexander, 3-4 EDGE Might not be retained as he is older anyway....but we did in fact use a 1st on Shaq Lawson already Zach Brown, LB Word is they are working on a contract for him Percy Harvin, WR (2 years Ago #2 WR) Really? Why would you even bring up this guy? Corbin Bryant, DT backup We drafted Adolphus Washington in last years draft.....and frankly backup DT's are not that hard to find or expensive Leger Douzable, DT backup See above In short....it would not matter who we got to play quarterback.....we draft to replace players we dont want to pay for and the key player are mostly under contract with the exception of Gilmore......there are players like Marcel and Glenn that can be reworked to gain additional cap space if needed and we will have a TON of cap space after this year (which is why the restructure of TT might be moving some of the money into 2018. Basically....just like this last year cap and money were not an issue Whaley found the player to make it work on a budget even after Ragland going down for the year and Shaq only playing half the season. This also doesn't take into account that the pre-Rex defense that the fanboys imagine is NOT COMING back. Mario Williams old and gone. Kyle Williams old and could retire. Jerry Hughes injured last year. Marcel Dareus most likely to rebound in 4-3 defense but he is ??? because of behavior and suspensions. Mario is done....Kyle while old still playing at a very good level......but you miss why the Rex defense didnt work anyway.......communication issues and confusion abound from RR complex scheme. That D NEVER fit what Rex wanted to do and bringing in his brother compounded the problem. For years draft picks have been sent to the D side of the ball and frankly there is a lot of talent there that fits that scheme.....they **** canned RR before more damage could be done. They of course need to show it but you have a HC who has had recent top 10 defenses instead of RR and his very very long time ago success....why WOULDNT we expect a improvement on the D side of the ball (this is not even talking about the total undiciplined nature of RR and how it carried to his players.....as opposed to the meticulous disciplined detailed no nonsense detailed nature of McD. Shaq Lawson lost his rookie year and did not look like a high first rounder. Reggie Ragland coming back from a torn ACL and Bills are changing scheme to something that could ask him to do things he is not as good at. Shaq Lawson looked like a high energy high energy player who showed good strength against OL even coming off injury......who frankly was playing out of position in RR's D and now he returns to the end in a 43 D........as for Reggie Ragland what are they asking him to do that he is not good at? The guy is a beast and good in zone coverage (a McD scheme trait) once again....needs to show he can do it but was the talk of camp right up until his injury this past year (RR looked like he wanted to cry) I wasn't referring to TT advocates. "Fanboys" was a jab at people who imagine the defense will turn top 5 because Rex is gone. Good points on the offense where I agree with you completely that Roman + Lynn was lightning in a bottle that might not be caught again. Why do we expect a top 5 D? This D fell TWENTY SPOTS under RR......A D that ranked 10th would have gotten us into the playoffs this year
klos63 Posted February 23, 2017 Posted February 23, 2017 Completely agree with this idea. Tyrod is the bridge and, if we find somebody better in the next year or two, it would be much easier to move on from Tyrod insofar as the cap is concerned. Nyone we find who is better than Tyrod almost certainly will be cheaper than Tyrod, and if we luck into a Dak Prescott scenario we would only have to pay Tyrod big bucks for a year or two - while the guy who is actually worth that money is on a rookie deal. The interesting thing about pulling money forward for Tyrod is that it suggests that we may have an unforeseen cap casualty or two. It wouldn't surprise me if Wood is that surprise. In the same vein, i wonder if jerry hughes is a candidate to be moved. I have pondered the idea of paying Alexander significant money (but less than Hughes money) for two years, trading Hughes, and moving Alexander into Hughes's role and moving Hughes's lousy attitude out of town. Let's not get fooled by one great year by Alexander. He's old by football standards, players performances fall off quickly at this age. Anything we get from him will be a bonus.
BuffaloRebound Posted February 23, 2017 Posted February 23, 2017 Keep Tyrod but push the $15m option bonus to 2018 and move up the $3m guarantee from 2018 into 2017. He regressed from 2015, we have a new coaching staff, and we have other free agents to sign. He gets $15m guaranteed this year and a chance to prove he's worth the rest of the deal. Nobody outside of Cleveland is giving him more than $15m guaranteed, and Buffalo is probably his best shot to prove he's a top 15 QB. If he walks, have fun in Cleveland.
hondo in seattle Posted February 23, 2017 Posted February 23, 2017 (edited) Do you think Taylor is better than Cousins? Or Smith? Are you willing to take a shot on a mid rounder like Carr or Wilson or Prescott? If you don't see better options it's not because there aren't any. The NFLers you mention aren't available as has been pointed out. I'd love for our scouts to correctly identify a great QB prospect that we then take in the draft. And if this guy beats out Taylor, great. But those odds are long. In my long years of fandom, the only QB we've drafted that amounted to anything special was Kelly. Then again, we took Kelly with the 14th pick. This year we have the #10 pick. Let's cross our fingers we'll be that lucky again. Even if we do hit paydirt with a good QB, many QBs these days do better with a year or two on the bench. Tyrod still serves a purpose - as a bridge and mentor. In the end, I really hope you're right. I hope we find a way to upgrade the QB position. I'm just not optimistic and think TT is the best option going. I wasn't referring to TT advocates. "Fanboys" was a jab at people who imagine the defense will turn top 5 because Rex is gone. Good points on the offense where I agree with you completely that Roman + Lynn was lightning in a bottle that might not be caught again. Okay. I stand corrected. I certainly hope the D improves with Rex gone. Top 5 might be stretch but some improvement isn't hard to imagine given the injuries and communication issues. Edited February 23, 2017 by hondo in seattle
SectionC3 Posted February 23, 2017 Posted February 23, 2017 Let's not get fooled by one great year by Alexander. He's old by football standards, players performances fall off quickly at this age. Anything we get from him will be a bonus. I understand where you're coming from. And I get that removing Hughes from the roster probably would result in a big cap hit. But I still wonder whether, say, 60% of the 2016 Alexander would be better than 100% of the 2017 Hughes. It's at least worth thinking about.
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