Trump and Russia

[gatorbait]

 

Let me stress...

 

 

Why is it so difficult? I'm not attacking Clinton. I'm not defending Trump. I'm very specifically criticizing the irrationality of the argument with a reducto ad absurdum methodology.

 

Basically, I'm trying to get people to ask the question "Wait...do I really sound that stupid?" YES, YOU DO!

 

[This is an automated response.]

 

 

Created by DC Tom-bot, beta version 0.8.

Now I'm officially part of the board thanks Tom. I hope you guys come back here and eat a big piece a crow if more of Trump's people have to resign for lying about shady things with Russia.

 

What is my argument? You might be the idiot for not realizing that I wasn't claiming anything, just listing facts. I'll be the first to say this investigation was bull **** if it concludes nothing. There's a lot of smoke, and 100 people at the FBI are investigating it. The truth hurts sometimes.

Edited March 29, 2017 by gatorbait

[grinreaper]

Tom you are a legend around these parts, and I respect your opinion. I don't agree however that it's somewhat obvious that the Clintons used Russia to frame Trump. Do you really think that's what the FBI is investigating right now? I agree that there could just be a lot of smoke and no fire, it's happened before with the FBI. I'm not rushing to any judgments or speculating, I'm listing facts as facts.

No, you spell "opinion" f-a-c-t-s.

[gatorbait]

No, you spell "opinion" f-a-c-t-s.

Please tell me what I said is opinion and not fact. The bullet points I listed have happened, whether you like them or not.

[Magox]

For !@#$s sake guys I have read it five times. Maybe that post isn't as illuminating as you might think. You tell me what is the point of that post Magox. What is so clear that I am missing? And how the !@#$ does it relate to my post where I listed facts and said there's smoke.

 

If you think that's enough smoke on the Clintons behalf, to totally ignore all the **** I said then whatever. I cant explain anything or change opinions that are already set.

 

 

I'm sure that if you dug deep enough into any major political campaign, you could find lots of "smoke" when dealing with such a large influential country such as Russia. The instances that Tom brought up was just to illustrate that similar-like circumstances occur to other campaigns as well. It is not unusual for people that have been in politics and part of the DC game for decades to be hired to lobby for foreign countries, simply because they have more access to American people in power than the average Joe. Is it unseemly and off-putting? Sure. But it's par for the course.

Edited March 29, 2017 by Magox

[grinreaper]

Now I'm officially part of the board thanks Tom. I hope you guys come back here and eat a big piece a crow if more of Trump's people have to resign for lying about shady things with Russia.

 

What is my argument? You might be the idiot for not realizing that I wasn't claiming anything, just listing facts. I'll be the first to say this investigation was bull **** if it concludes nothing. There's a lot of smoke, and 100 people at the FBI are investigating it. The truth hurts sometimes.

Do you recognize this?

 

"I'm not saying there's collusion, we don't know yet. I think Putin offered millions or billions of dollars to lift the sanctions, and might have something to blackmail Trump's team with. Pee pee tape maybe? Trump loves everything golden, maybe he likes his showers golden too."

 

 

It's from your post #486 of this thread. Nice facts.

[gatorbait]

 

 

I'm sure that if you dug deep enough into any major political campaign, you could find lots of "smoke" when dealing with such a large influential country such as Russia. The instances that Tom brought up was just to illustrate that similar-like circumstances occur to other campaigns as well. It is not unusual for people that have been in politics and part of the DC game for decades to be hired to lobby for foreign countries, simply because they have more access to American people in power than the average Joe. It is unseemly and off-putting? Sure. But it's par for the course.

Fair enough, and I apologize for getting testy. It's been a long day. Please tell me though how many political officials have had to resign for lying about ties to a major foreign power? How many times has a presidential candidate asked another foreign power to hack another candidate? Then it happens. A little suspicious, no? You guys are probably a lot older and wiser than me, I admit that. But I don't think it is wise to brush this whole thing off without waiting for the results of the investigation.

Do you recognize this?

 

"I'm not saying there's collusion, we don't know yet. I think Putin offered millions or billions of dollars to lift the sanctions, and might have something to blackmail Trump's team with. Pee pee tape maybe? Trump loves everything golden, maybe he likes his showers golden too."

 

 

It's from your post #486 of this thread. Nice facts.

Thanks you partisan hack for highlighting the end of my post, where I said I think and was clearly joking about a pee pee tape. Do you care to argue any of the bullet points? Like I asked you to do? The bullet points slim peeper. Those are facts, and that's what we know so far.

[grinreaper]

Fair enough, and I apologize for getting testy. It's been a long day. Please tell me though how many political officials have had to resign for lying about ties to a major foreign power? How many times has a presidential candidate asked another foreign power to hack another candidate? Then it happens. A little suspicious, no? You guys are probably a lot older and wiser than me, I admit that. But I don't think it is wise to brush this whole thing off without waiting for the results of the investigation.

Horseshit. He didn't ask Russia to do anything. It was a facetious remark having to do with Clinton's lack of forthrightness in releasing emails.

[Magox]

Fair enough, and I apologize for getting testy. It's been a long day. Please tell me though how many political officials have had to resign for lying about ties to a major foreign power? How many times has a presidential candidate asked another foreign power to hack another candidate? Then it happens. A little suspicious, no? You guys are probably a lot older and wiser than me, I admit that. But I don't think it is wise to brush this whole thing off without waiting for the results of the investigation.

 

I don't know, maybe there is more to it. But what I do know is that there is an effort from Democrats and a complicit media with more assigned investigative reporters searching for the smoking gun than what we've probably ever have seen and I don't think I'm being exaggerative when I say this. Any mention of Russia with any official or connection to Trump gets hyper sensationalized to the nth degree by the mainstream and social media.

 

I certainly won't vouch for Trump because I do believe at heart he is capable of doing some corrupt ****, but all this "smoke" with the exception of Roger Stone who is one shady dude doesn't seem that out of the norm from what I've read.

 

And no worries and need to apologize. I was simply trying to have you see what I believed to be an effective point that Tom made.

[gatorbait]

Horseshit. He didn't ask Russia to do anything. It was a facetious remark having to do with Clinton's lack of forthrightness in releasing emails.

At a campaign rally he invited Russia to hack her emails, more specifically the 30,000 that went missing. They ended up with people from the DNC, not HRC's. Then Guccifer 2.0 leaked them to Wikileaks. That is not my opinion, that's what 17 intelligence agencies have said. By the way I love how you still won't debate any of the bullet points I made.

 

I don't know, maybe there is more to it. But what I do know is that there is an effort from Democrats and a complicit media with more assigned investigative reporters searching for the smoking gun than what we've probably ever have seen and I don't think I'm being exaggerative when I say this. Any mention of Russia with any official or connection to Trump gets hyper sensationalized to the nth degree by the mainstream and social media.

 

I certainly won't vouch for Trump because I do believe at heart he is capable of doing some corrupt ****, but all this "smoke" with the exception of Roger Stone who is one shady dude doesn't seem that out of the norm from what I've read.

 

And no worries and need to apologize. I was simply trying to have you see what I believed to be an effective point that Tom made.

I agree, it is ridiculous the way the left is blowing it out of proportion 24/7. I would much rather talk about improving healthcare or the infrastructure, or how we could possibly be enjoying lower taxes and a better economy in the near future.The sooner we can get this behind us and move on, the better for all Americans.

 

And I am an idiot for not fully understanding that post by Tom. Real men admit when they're wrong and I was wrong. Do you hear that Trump?

[DC Tom]

Now I'm officially part of the board thanks Tom. I hope you guys come back here and eat a big piece a crow if more of Trump's people have to resign for lying about shady things with Russia.

 

What is my argument? You might be the idiot for not realizing that I wasn't claiming anything, just listing facts. I'll be the first to say this investigation was bull **** if it concludes nothing. There's a lot of smoke, and 100 people at the FBI are investigating it. The truth hurts sometimes.

 

All I listed was facts. Yet you ascribed a claim to me.

 

And I'll have no need to eat crow, as I've never made any claim either way. Because I don't indulge in the sort of "too much smoke" bull **** logic that you do.

[gatorbait]

 

All I listed was facts. Yet you ascribed a claim to me.

 

And I'll have no need to eat crow, as I've never made any claim either way. Because I don't indulge in the sort of "too much smoke" bull **** logic that you do.

Alrighty then. I am not claiming anything besides there is a lot of smoke. You're basically insinuating that people who say there is smoke, think there must be something there. I love how no one is arguing or disagreeing with the bullet points I made. That is the visual smoke, for everyone to see. FBI investigations and people resigning aren't normal to a young person like me, maybe they are to old farts like you.

[DC Tom]

Alrighty then. I am not claiming anything besides there is a lot of smoke. You're basically insinuating that people who say there is smoke, think there must be something there. I love how no one is arguing or disagreeing with the bullet points I made. That is the visual smoke, for everyone to see. FBI investigations and people resigning aren't normal to a young person like me, maybe they are to old farts like you.

 

You are the one who said "There is more than smoke now."

 

The thing you learn, with enough experience, is that you can make connections between anything and anyone. My wife used to be very good friends with a member of the mob. She also worked with the attorney who wrote the real estate laws for DC (including the loopholes he personally used to foreclose on occupied apartment buildings.) I used to do risk analysis for Ginnie Mae. That doesn't mean my wife and I colluded with the mafia, the DC government, and Ginnie Mae to take over the DC real estate market. And that's a very pedestrian example; when you get to the rarefied level of international finance and government, everyone pretty much knows everyone else, it's really easy to "prove" collusion based on "smoke..." because everyone does know everyone else. You make up the most batshit insane conspiracy theory you can imagine, and I will "prove it" based on the idea that "there's too much smoke for it to not be true." Mayor Bloomberg has worked to bring Russian investment to NYC. You would, of course, expect investors in to NYC to become familiar with a NYC real estate developer like Trump. Ergo, Bloomberg was responsible for introducing Trump to the Russians. That's a lot of money - several billions, at least - between Bloomberg, NYC, Trump, and the Russians. Too much smoke for there to not be a possibility that Bloomberg has been working behind the scenes with Trump and the Russians to hack the election. I can do that all day (Trump still maintains offices in Trump Towers - in Bloomberg's city. In fact, as his wife and kid are still there, he clearly hasn't committed completely to exercising power from DC. Is that a sign of Bloomberg's manipulation?)

 

The only reason you don't believe my theory is that 1) I clearly made it up on the spot, and 2) I'm not the Times or the Post. Otherwise, it's no different. That logic is the fundamental basis for every conspiracy theory you've ever heard. See connections, interpret them as causation or collusion, apply hindsight as ex post facto justification...and bam! Henry Ford armed the Nazis, while IBM caused the Holocaust and Prescott Bush created Hitler. It's not a question of whether or not you're right or wrong...it's that either way, your logic is complete nonsense. There are far more random connections in the world than meaningful ones.

[gatorbait]

Jesus Tom where the hell did I say there is more than smoke? Weren't you just saying how reading comprehension is important? I said there is more than a puff of smoke, there is a full on cloud. If you want to disagree or debate that fine, but get off your high horse and stop putting words in my mouth.

[grinreaper]

Recently, Jared Kushner admitted to meeting with a Russian banker one month after the election. This guy runs Putin's major bank, and graduated from the academy of the FSB (KGB). The White House is claiming he was just doing his job as one of Trump's head advisers. Really? It's his job to meet with Russian bankers? There is more than just a puff of smoke at this point, there's a full on cloud. What we know so far: So what? Did he do anything illegal?

-Manafort had to resign from the campaign because of shady ties to Russian backed Ukrainians and possible blackmail attempts from Russia. Manafort was pushed out of the campaign because it wasn't going the way Trump wanted it to go.

-Flynn had to resign as NSA because of lying about meetings with Russia. to Pence. There was nothing wrong about meeting with the Russiam ambassador.

-Jeff sessions recused himself from the Russian investigation after misleading Congress about meetings with the Russian embassador. Sessions met the ambassador at a reception and exchanged pleasantries. He also had a meeting with him in his senate office as a Senator, not as a surrogate.

-Roger stone is under investigation, and had some contact with Guccifer 2.0. So what?

-Carter Page seems more than shady imo and had to resign from the campaign. In your opinion.

-JD Gordon may have been instrumental in changing the GOP platform in relation to Crimea, also had contacts with Russians. The GOP platform was changed to come down harder on Russia

.Russian hackers meddled in our election, and want to destroy western democracies. There was bad blood between Putin and Clinton over Ukraine. Russia has always wanted to destroy western democracies just like we have always wanted to destroy communism.

-Trump has attacked or badmouthed pretty much everyone, but has never said one bad word about Russia and Putin So what?

-The FBI has been doing a criminal investigation since July and I don't even think we know everything yet. I agree.

 

I'm not saying there's collusion, we don't know yet. I think Putin offered millions or billions of dollars to lift the sanctions, and might have something to blackmail Trump's team with. Pee pee tape maybe? Trump loves everything golden, maybe he likes his showers golden too.

[Azalin]

Recently, Jared Kushner admitted to meeting with a Russian banker one month after the election. This guy runs Putin's major bank, and graduated from the academy of the FSB (KGB). The White House is claiming he was just doing his job as one of Trump's head advisers. Really? It's his job to meet with Russian bankers? There is more than just a puff of smoke at this point, there's a full on cloud. What we know so far:

-Manafort had to resign from the campaign because of shady ties to Russian backed Ukrainians and possible blackmail attempts from Russia.

-Flynn had to resign as NSA because of lying about meetings with Russia.

-Jeff sessions recused himself from the Russian investigation after misleading Congress about meetings with the Russian embassador.

-Roger stone is under investigation, and had some contact with Guccifer 2.0.

-Carter Page seems more than shady imo and had to resign from the campaign.

-JD Gordon may have been instrumental in changing the GOP platform in relation to Crimea, also had contacts with Russians.

-Russian hackers meddled in our election, and want to destroy western democracies.

-Trump has attacked or badmouthed pretty much everyone, but has never said one bad word about Russia and Putin

-The FBI has been doing a criminal investigation since July and I don't even think we know everything yet.

 

I'm not saying there's collusion, we don't know yet. I think Putin offered millions or billions of dollars to lift the sanctions, and might have something to blackmail Trump's team with. Pee pee tape maybe? Trump loves everything golden, maybe he likes his showers golden too.

 

Are these the bullet points you refer to as "facts"? If so, then there's more than a little supposition in your facts.

 

1) I remember Manafort was removed because Trump's campaign was stalling at the time. I don't know one way or another about Russian backed Ukranians attempting to blackmail, but that sounds like conjecture at this point, not established fact. I would cite your use of the word "possible" to back my premise.

 

2) No argument on Flynn, but I believe it's very telling that so few are outraged at the nature of how this information was both gleaned and disclosed to the public.

 

3) Wasn't Sessions' meeting with Russian diplomats conducted while he was on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee?

 

4) Stone is under investigation. That's all. Objectivity requires understanding that it's too soon for judgement either way.

 

5) ".Carter Page seems more than shady imo..." - opinion, not fact.

 

6) "JD Gordon may have been instrumental in changing the GOP platform in relation to Crimea, also had contacts with Russians." - opinion, not fact.

 

7) "Russian hackers meddled in our election, and want to destroy western democracies." - A Democrat talking point, still unsubstantiated and under investigation.

 

8) The only reason Trump has not badmouthed Putin is likely because Putin has never run for office against Trump. Still, not badmouthing someone is not factual evidence of anything.

 

9) "The FBI has been doing a criminal investigation since July and I don't even think we know everything yet." - This is one thing I agree with completely, except I would point out that you could just as easily substitute the word "anything" for "everything" in your statement.

[gatorbait]

 

Recently, Jared Kushner admitted to meeting with a Russian banker one month after the election. This guy runs Putin's major bank, and graduated from the academy of the FSB (KGB). The White House is claiming he was just doing his job as one of Trump's head advisers. Really? It's his job to meet with Russian bankers? There is more than just a puff of smoke at this point, there's a full on cloud. What we know so far: So what? Did he do anything illegal?

-Manafort had to resign from the campaign because of shady ties to Russian backed Ukrainians and possible blackmail attempts from Russia. Manafort was pushed out of the campaign because it wasn't going the way Trump wanted it to go.

-Flynn had to resign as NSA because of lying about meetings with Russia. to Pence. There was nothing wrong about meeting with the Russiam ambassador.

-Jeff sessions recused himself from the Russian investigation after misleading Congress about meetings with the Russian embassador. Sessions met the ambassador at a reception and exchanged pleasantries. He also had a meeting with him in his senate office as a Senator, not as a surrogate.

-Roger stone is under investigation, and had some contact with Guccifer 2.0. So what?

-Carter Page seems more than shady imo and had to resign from the campaign. In your opinion.

-JD Gordon may have been instrumental in changing the GOP platform in relation to Crimea, also had contacts with Russians. The GOP platform was changed to come down harder on Russia

.Russian hackers meddled in our election, and want to destroy western democracies. There was bad blood between Putin and Clinton over Ukraine. Russia has always wanted to destroy western democracies just like we have always wanted to destroy communism.

-Trump has attacked or badmouthed pretty much everyone, but has never said one bad word about Russia and Putin So what?

-The FBI has been doing a criminal investigation since July and I don't even think we know everything yet. I agree.

 

I'm not saying there's collusion, we don't know yet. I think Putin offered millions or billions of dollars to lift the sanctions, and might have something to blackmail Trump's team with. Pee pee tape maybe? Trump loves everything golden, maybe he likes his showers golden too.

Give me one good reason why Kushner met with the Russian banker. Business dealings would be a conflict of interest so you are going to have to find a better one. I'm not saying it is nefarious, just that it seems sketchy when all this other Russian stuff is being looked at. Did I say anything was illegal? Nope. Why did Flynn lie to numerous people and not just Pence? If politicians lie all the time why did he have to resign? No other NSA Director has had to resign in my lifetime, so it clearly doesn't look good. Why did Sessions lie and have to recuse himself from the investigation? Manafort was not kicked off of the campaign for the reason you stated, but you won't learn the truth on breitbart. You replying with "so what" is laughable. FBI investigations aren't something that I just brush off. Your excuses for all of those things don't make them untrue or any less serious.

[grinreaper]

Give me one good reason why Kushner met with the Russian banker. Business dealings would be a conflict of interest so you are going to have to find a better one. I'm not saying it is nefarious, just that it seems sketchy when all this other Russian stuff is being looked at. Did I say anything was illegal? Nope. Why did Flynn lie to numerous people and not just Pence? If politicians lie all the time why did he have to resign? No other NSA Director has had to resign in my lifetime, so it clearly doesn't look good. Why did Sessions lie and have to recuse himself from the investigation? Manafort was not kicked off of the campaign for the reason you stated, but you won't learn the truth on breitbart. You replying with "so what" is laughable. FBI investigations aren't something that I just brush off. Your excuses for all of those things don't make them untrue or any less serious.

This kind of schit is the very reason I seldom argue with gatorman (Tiberius). Talking points don't make it here. You're wasting my time.

[gatorbait]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/08/19/paul-manaforts-complicated-ties-to-ukraine-explained/?utm_term=.8f615fcf543e is a good place to start.

 

Manafort's daughter also had her texts going back 2-3 years hacked. She said they have blood on their hands. http://www.businessinsider.com/paul-manafort-daughter-text-messages-ukraine-2017-3

 

The rumors of the pee tape and Flynn/Manafort being blackmailed come from sources I trust. There is no proof for the public just yet. Stop making excuses for all of this shady **** and let's see how it plays out. It doesn't matter if Sessions was on the Senate Foreign Relations Committe. He wasn't honest to Congress and had to recuse himself from the investigation. Stone being investigated for having contact with Guccifer 2.0 doesn't look good.

 

Here is a little more about JD Gordon and the GOP platform

http://www.businessinsider.com/jd-gordon-trump-adviser-ukraine-rnc-2017-3

 

Russian hackers leaked stuff about the DNC to wikileaks. Everyone knows this. It had effects on our democratic process one way or another. That is meddling. They want their citizens to think democracy doesn't work in the west.

This kind of schit is the very reason I seldom argue with gatorman (Tiberius). Talking points don't make it here. You're wasting my time.

You don't ever explain your BS ideas and points. You never answer questions that are asked to you. You are a republican talking head.

[grinreaper]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/08/19/paul-manaforts-complicated-ties-to-ukraine-explained/?utm_term=.8f615fcf543e is a good place to start.

 

Manafort's daughter also had her texts going back 2-3 years hacked. She said they have blood on their hands. http://www.businessinsider.com/paul-manafort-daughter-text-messages-ukraine-2017-3

 

The rumors of the pee tape and Flynn/Manafort being blackmailed come from sources I trust. There is no proof for the public just yet. Stop making excuses for all of this shady **** and let's see how it plays out. It doesn't matter if Sessions was on the Senate Foreign Relations Committe. He wasn't honest to Congress and had to recuse himself from the investigation. Stone being investigated for having contact with Guccifer 2.0 doesn't look good.

 

Here is a little more about JD Gordon and the GOP platform

http://www.businessinsider.com/jd-gordon-trump-adviser-ukraine-rnc-2017-3

 

Russian hackers leaked stuff about the DNC to wikileaks. Everyone knows this. It had effects on our democratic process one way or another. That is meddling. They want their citizens to think democracy doesn't work in the west.

You don't ever explain your BS ideas and points. You never answer questions that are asked to you. You are a republican talking head.

You complained that I didn't answer your "bullet points" but when I did you admonished me and threw Brietbart into the equation. You've got a lot to learn boy.

[gatorbait]

You complained that I didn't answer your "bullet points" but when I did you admonished me and threw Brietbart into the equation. You've got a lot to learn boy.

You said so what and made excuses. The other poster actually had good rebuttals to my points, but not you. You seem like the average Trumplethinskin supporter, angry and uninformed. Edited March 29, 2017 by gatorbait