Trump and Russia

[TakeYouToTasker]

2 hours ago, Bob in Mich said:

The Trump Jr - Russian meeting is fact, right?  Also factual is that the administration and Trump have repeatedly lied regarding the purpose and participants in that meeting.  Why all the deception if there was nothing to conceal?  Perhaps they were trying to conceal the fact that they were willing to work with Russians to help Trump win.  Recall Trump Jr's email chain?  Now, if the Russians actually helped and got something in return for this help, that would be a conspiracy, would it not?

 

Trump Jr had contacts with Wikileaks about utilizing the hacked emails, right or not?  Flynn's talk with the Russians was about removing Obama placed sanctions, right or not?  Why are these facts not evidence of any possible collusion to you?  I realize that not everything has yet to be made public but to me there seems to be lots of evidence of collusion.

 

Why are all the lies around Russia - Flynn, Trump Jr, Sessions, Papa, etc, etc?  If the lies are accidents or coincidences, shouldn't there be sort a distribution among all countries?  That has to raise questions to the most willfully blind.

 

That's not evidence of anything.

 

What you're doing is taking a circumstance and attributing the worst possible connotations to it, and then demanding others prove that nothing happened.

 

That's not evidence, or how to properly make a case.  

 

Greg is laying out evidence.  Page after page of evidence including legal documents, and ties everything together neatly leaving no gaps in his explanations, sourcing those as well.  

[njbuff]

 

HAHAHAHA. Fake news and Democrats

[3rdnlng]

FWIW, the Russians did not hack the DNC or Podesta.

I don't understand why people keep pushing that narrative when it has been proven otherwise.

[Bob in Mich]

6 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

That's not evidence of anything.

 

What you're doing is taking a circumstance and attributing the worst possible connotations to it, and then demanding others prove that nothing happened.

 

That's not evidence, or how to properly make a case.  

 

Greg is laying out evidence.  Page after page of evidence including legal documents, and ties everything together neatly leaving no gaps in his explanations, sourcing those as well.  

 

No, I am presenting the likely scenario for the Russian election conspiracy, as I understand it.  The Russians helped get Trump elected in exchange for softening of the sanctions.  My prior post suggested how both ends of that transaction could have taken place.  Is that what happened?  We don't know yet.

 

Also, I am not demanding anything.  I have asked repeatedly however what conspiracy evidence would be good enough for you.  Wanna answer that yet?

 

 

[DC Tom]

24 minutes ago, Bob in Mich said:

 

No, I am presenting the likely scenario for the Russian election conspiracy, as I understand it.  The Russians helped get Trump elected in exchange for softening of the sanctions.  My prior post suggested how both ends of that transaction could have taken place.  Is that what happened?  We don't know yet.

 

Yeah, we do know.  

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-sanctions-investment/u-s-sanctions-hit-russian-hopes-of-a-trump-bump-for-investment-idUSKCN1AV0ZK

Quote

 

New U.S. sanctions on Moscow have forced Russian business chiefs to accept that Donald Trump’s rise to power is not about to produce a “Trump Bump” in foreign investment.

 

After Trump became U.S. president, some investors said they would be prepared to contemplate new deals with Russian firms if they saw signs that U.S.-Russian ties were improving and U.S. restrictions on business with Russia were being relaxed.

But the new sanctions, signed onto law by Trump on Aug. 2, add new measures and codify six orders signed by President Barack Obama, making them harder for Trump to revoke.

 

 

So the likely scenario is that the Russians got Trump elected...and then he double-crossed the Russians not only by increasing the sanctions, but making it harder for himself to lift them?  That's your theory?  

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, DC Tom said:

 

Yeah, we do know.  

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-sanctions-investment/u-s-sanctions-hit-russian-hopes-of-a-trump-bump-for-investment-idUSKCN1AV0ZK

 

So the likely scenario is that the Russians got Trump elected...and then he double-crossed the Russians not only by increasing the sanctions, but making it harder for himself to lift them?  That's your theory?  

 

Duuuuuuddde, in fairness, that theory sounds a lot more righteous when you're stoned.

Edited February 7, 2018 by Taro T

[Nanker]

2 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

LOL

[Koko78]

1 hour ago, Cinga said:

Just curious.... Can anyone site me the federal statute against collusion?

 

I believe the Democrats find it under section 4(a)(2)(iii) of 24 U.S.C. screwyouthatswhy.

[GG]

48 minutes ago, Taro T said:

 

Duuuuuuddde, in fairness, that theory sounds a lot more righteous when you're stoned.

 

Or lifted from the rapant Facebook posts, which are totally legit now that Zuck has seen the light.

[Deranged Rhino]

Sorry, don't mean to spam this, but it kind of belongs in all four of those threads.... 

2 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

Grassley's memo is now (partially) unredacted... 

 

https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/2018-02-06 CEG LG to DOJ FBI (Unclassified Steele Referral).pdf

 

Here's the side-by-side redactions... hard to tell WHY the FBI didn't want this out:

(snipped for space)

Read it. This is damning stuff. 

 

And we're STILL in the opening phase of this roll out. 

 

[B-Man]

Trey Gowdy suggests Clinton operative Sidney Blumenthal fed info to Steele weeks before election

Russia collusion smear campaign looking more and more like a Clinton operation.

 

 

 

Adam Schiff Fell For Prank, Had Staffers Work to Obtain Dirt on Trump from Foreign Government

 

Man investigating Trump/Russian collusion had staff collude with fake Ukrainian government officials to get dirt on Trump

 

 

[Deranged Rhino]

3 hours ago, Bob in Mich said:

 

No, I am presenting the likely scenario for the Russian election conspiracy, as I understand it.  The Russians helped get Trump elected in exchange for softening of the sanctions.  My prior post suggested how both ends of that transaction could have taken place.  Is that what happened?  We don't know yet.

 

Also, I am not demanding anything.  I have asked repeatedly however what conspiracy evidence would be good enough for you.  Wanna answer that yet?

 

 

 

I was being short earlier because I was traveling and also have covered much of this (several times) for the past year... So apologies.

 

Here's the truth. You've been lied to. For over a year. On a day by day, minute by minute process. Even if you tune out the news, you've been unable to avoid this narrative. It relies upon two fundamental things to work: 

 

1) That people suspect (or outright hate) Trump enough to believe without evidence he'd sell out the country. 

2) That the majority of people won't bother to fact check the tale they were spinning. 

 

We know, with evidence in the form of Congressional testimony, Unclassified documents from both the DOJ, FBI, and DNI, that there were multiple high ranking officials actively working to circumvent the law when it came to surveillance. We also know, for a fact, this malfeasance did not start with 2016 election. From unclassified documents we know that subcontractors hired by the FBI were illegally accessing NSA 702 data without oversight for an unknown amount of years until April of 2016 when Admiral Rogers head of NSA shut this program down. If you are unaware, that's the raw metadata collected by NSA sweepers on every single person on the planet, including American citizens. In order for the FBI to access it legally, they need probable cause which has to be signed off by multiple other agencies. These subcontractors - who included Fusion GPS and CrowdStrike (both key names in this scandal) - were accessing this data without any other agency or department knowing or approving. 

 

That's not conspiracy. That's not delusion. That's provable with evidence that would stand up in court (and soon will be). 

 

Admiral Rogers asked for an explanation of for the previous 702 quarries. That meant the people abusing this system had to come up with an explanation, they needed to find a way to legally secure a warrant to turn that spigot back on. Why? Because these subcontractors (and others) had been pilfering this data and using it to spy on their political, economic, and ideological rivals. That means members of Obama's DOJ were abusing the most invasive spying tools in the NSA's toolkit to spy on political opposition.

 

This is key to understanding everything that came after April 2016. If they couldn't come up with a way to explain away those abuses that would expose Obama himself to an unspeakable scandal. Forget every other scandal in the history of this country, if he were exposed to have signed off on any of this (and he IS the head of the executive and by default head of the DOJ and FBI) then it would mean he was subverting the constitutional rights of American citizens for his own political gain. Remember, in April 2016 there was no Russian scandal or hysteria. It wasn't in the news. It wasn't in the press other than talking about Syria. 

 

Turning back on the spigot, which would require a warrant this time with Rogers watching over their shoulders, was crucial to securing a victory for HRC. A victory for HRC would mean none of this would ever get investigated, let alone exposed to the public. Her victory was vital. So vital it required an "insurance plan" per the head agent on the FBI's Russian investigation Pete Strzok. 

 

The FBI and DOJ tried to get a FISA warrant on Carter page starting in June of 16. It was denied. Included in this application was the inclusion that Page had been under FBI investigation since 2013. That wasn't enough to get a warrant. And now we know, as of yesterday, that Carter Page hadn't been "under investigation" but was employed by the FBI as an undercover agent to bust up a Russian spy ring.

 

( https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2018/02/05/in-march-2016-carter-page-was-an-fbi-employee-in-october-2016-fbi-told-fisa-court-hes-a-spy/ )

 

June 2016 is a really important month because that's when both the Russian collusion narrative and the Dossier were born. In fact, they were birthed on the same day - just days after that infamous Trump Tower meeting. 

Here's the timeline:

 

Unknown start date - April 2016: Fusion GPS/CrowdStrike/HRC's campaign have full access to raw 702 data without oversight through McCabe/Priestap/Baker/Ohr at the FBI. Fusion GPS had been doing oppo research for a long time before April 2016.

 

April 2016: Rogers shuts down this access and asks for explanations into previous 702 quarries. 

 

April - June 9th: Black hats at DOJ, FBI, CIA and the 44 Administration along with HRC campaign have to come up with probable cause to explain their past 702 abuses AND get an actual FISA warrant to continue spying on Trump. They come up with a plan to generate cause. 

 

June 2016: They apply for a FISA warrant - and are denied. 

 

June 9th 2016: Don Jr has the infamous meeting with Veselnitskaya in Trump Towers. Veselnitskaya was denied a visa originally but had that denial overturned by 44's administration at the last minute, making the meeting possible. She is working with Fusion GPS on the Magnitsky case with Prevezon and against Browder. And the translator used for the meeting was HRC's favorite while she was SecState. Meaning this whole thing is arranged by ALL the elements who are trying to cover their ass: CIA, 44, FBI, DOJ, Fusion GPS, HRC and the DNC by extension. Also, she meets with Simpson the day before and the day after, as per his testimony, though he says he can not speak to her because she doesnt speak English.

 

June 15th: The big day-

* Fusion GPS hires Steele. 

* Guciffer 2.0 (a front for CrowdStrike - this has been proven and is very in the weeds) pretends to be a hacker and releases the first DNC "hacked" material, launching the "Russians hacked the election" narrative.

 

With both these moves, they were trying to get ahead of the WikiLeak drops they knew were coming. Guciffer 2.0 has no connection to WikiLeaks, is not a hacker, and is a proven invention by the DNC subcontractor CrowdStrike. The DNC Leaks began in late June and were published by WikiLeaks in July. G2.0 took credit for this, and per the bogus DNI Clapper and Brennan also pinned the hack on Guciffer despite no forensic evidence to make this case.

 

This is a deflection/game/story being planted on multiple fronts. None of them originate in Moscow - they all originate inside DC. 

 

June 20th: Just five days after being hired, without ever going to Russia once, Steele submits the first draft of the dossier. (Which was actually authored by Simpson and Nellie Ohr, CIA, who concocted a loose narrative using elements of the 702 SIGINT they illegally collected on team Trump to tell a damning story for the FISA court approval). Putin nor his cronies have anything to do with this. They haven't had the chance to. 

 

July 5th: Steele contacts the FBI (who we now know actually hired Fusion/Steele in the first place to cover their asses) about the dossier. The FBI begins its investigation, and goes 8 months between beginning this and letting Congress know it is investigating, due to the “sensitive nature” of the investigation. It is released in the press on 11/1/16, due to Fusion GPS (Simpson and Steele) going to the press with the fake dossier information, and attempting to influence a presidential election.

 

July-October: Simpson and Steele shop the dossier to press outlets, including Yahoo and the NYT, in an effort to bolster the dossier's import after their FISA application is again denied in late July (using the Papadopoulos investigation as cause wasn't enough). 

 

October 21 2016: The FISA (Title I)warrant is approved, turning back on the spigot. The Russian narrative EXPLODES. 

 

*New information: At some point in October 16, the FBI suspended it's relationship with Steele for leaking to the press. They withheld payment (sources talking to the press is a major violation). This was noted in at footnote in the January renewal (pg 4 Grassley's memo) yet the FBI continued to vouch for his reliability despite this for their renewal applications in April and June 17. This is significant because as the Grassley memo points out, Steele testified in the UK that he was actively shopping the dossier to outlets BEFORE October 16. That means either Steele lied to the FBI, or more likely the FBI lied to the FISC about this in their original FISA application.

 

The FISA is then renewed three times - and we know from tonight that each time the dossier was the bulk of the evidence used. 

 

I started this by saying you were lied to. And you have been. Because that timeline should have been cracked by a professional journalist at any point during it. The information was all there, but no one was looking. There was complicity within the MSM to hide this story and marry themselves to the Russian collusion narrative. 

 

Why? 

 

Because of what I said earlier. This road ultimately ends up on his door. 

 

But here's the thing. This has nothing to do with politics. This is about whether or not we live in a democratic republic or a banana republic. The violations laid out above undercut every single thing written in the constitution. It lays out how the President of the United States and his highest ranking DOJ officials were illegally violating untold number of US citizen's 4th and 5th amendment rights in order to spy on their political opposition. 

 

That should alarm every single American. 

 

And it would, if we had an honest press. 

 

Everything I laid out above has evidence behind it. Real evidence that you yourself can read, verify, and decide if it's persuasive or not. It doesn't rely on conspiracy. It doesn't rely on talking points. You can see the veracity of it for yourself...

 

If you're honest enough to look that is. 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, DC Tom said:

 

Yeah, we do know.  

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-sanctions-investment/u-s-sanctions-hit-russian-hopes-of-a-trump-bump-for-investment-idUSKCN1AV0ZK

 

So the likely scenario is that the Russians got Trump elected...and then he double-crossed the Russians not only by increasing the sanctions, but making it harder for himself to lift them?  That's your theory?  

 

Exactly. 

Edited February 7, 2018 by Deranged Rhino
English / New information

[Bob in Mich]

1 hour ago, DC Tom said:

 

Yeah, we do know.  

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-sanctions-investment/u-s-sanctions-hit-russian-hopes-of-a-trump-bump-for-investment-idUSKCN1AV0ZK

 

So the likely scenario is that the Russians got Trump elected...and then he double-crossed the Russians not only by increasing the sanctions, but making it harder for himself to lift them?  That's your theory?  

 

Aren't you sort of ignoring the timeline and the sequence of events.  Trump signed this 8/2/17.  Quite a few events related to the investigation have taken place between June of 2016 (Don Jr meeting) and August of 2017 that may have changed the original plan.  Once the plan was discovered, it couldn't all be carried out without looking more guilty

[njbuff]

If Adam Schiff for brains phone call with Russian comedians doesn't tell you everything you need to know about how the Dems desperately wanted dirt on Trump and would use any means possible to get it............. I don't know what to tell you.

 

Adam Schiff for brains is the dumbest/treasonous mother on the planet, who got completely punked by Russian comedians, and the left/MSM could care less about it, but if the roles were reversed.......... OMG, it's the end of the world and Trump should go to jail.

[snafu]

3 minutes ago, Bob in Mich said:

 

Aren't you sort of ignoring the timeline and the sequence of events.  Trump signed this 8/2/17.  Quite a few events related to the investigation have taken place between June of 2016 (Don Jr meeting) and August of 2017 that may have changed the original plan.  Once the plan was discovered, it couldn't all be carried out without looking more guilty

 

Bob, put aside for a minute whether Trump or his people conspired with Russian agents to rig the election in his favor for a second. Does it not bother you in the least that it is likely that the FBI misled a FISA Court to get it to authorize a warrant to spy on a US citizen? It bothers the hell out of me.  It should bother the hell out of everyone who cares about privacy rights.

 

And that's before anyone gets to the "why" of the matter.  That's where the story gets into despicable areas. It doesn't bother you that while you've been distracted by alleged and unproved collusion with foreign agents there's likely been an actual conspiracy among domestic agents to help swing an election?  It should scare anyone who likes fair and free elections.

 

 

[Bob in Mich]

11 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

Everything I laid out above has evidence behind it. Real evidence that you yourself can read, verify, and decide if it's persuasive or not. It doesn't rely on conspiracy. It doesn't rely on talking points. You can see the veracity of it for yourself...

 

 

 

What?  Your tale relies on massive conspiracies.  You have so many people conspiring that it stretches credulity and now the press is all in on it too.  I have not looked at all of the evidence you presented (yet) but the general problem is that your solution is so much more complicated than what I see as the truth.  The much more simple explanation is more likely, imo.

 

Well, I am signing out for tonight.  Sleep well.

[njbuff]

3 minutes ago, snafu said:

 

Bob, put aside for a minute whether Trump or his people conspired with Russian agents to rig the election in his favor for a second. Does it not bother you in the least that it is likely that the FBI misled a FISA Court to get it to authorize a warrant to spy on a US citizen? It bothers the hell out of me.  It should bother the hell out of everyone who cares about privacy rights.

 

And that's before anyone gets to the "why" of the matter.  That's where the story gets into despicable areas. It doesn't bother you that while you've been distracted by alleged and unproved collusion with foreign agents there's likely been an actual conspiracy among domestic agents to help swing an election?  It should scare anyone who likes fair and free elections.

 

 

 

The left could care less about the truth because they were the ones conspiring to throw the election. And if they failed to win the election, they wanted dirt on Trump whether it was true or not. As a citizen, this should bother and scare EVERYONE. Your political bias and/or affiliation should not matter on this issue.

[Bob in Mich]

7 minutes ago, snafu said:

 

Bob, put aside for a minute whether Trump or his people conspired with Russian agents to rig the election in his favor for a second. Does it not bother you in the least that it is likely that the FBI misled a FISA Court to get it to authorize a warrant to spy on a US citizen? It bothers the hell out of me.  It should bother the hell out of everyone who cares about privacy rights.

 

And that's before anyone gets to the "why" of the matter.  That's where the story gets into despicable areas. It doesn't bother you that while you've been distracted by alleged and unproved collusion with foreign agents there's likely been an actual conspiracy among domestic agents to help swing an election?  It should scare anyone who likes fair and free elections.

 

 

 

OK, one more....

 

Yes, if there were problems with the warrant, by all means let's investigate, hold violators accountable, and improve the process for the future.  I don't think our government should be spying on citizens without just cause.

 

The problem I have is that many are using the dossier's inclusion in the warrant to say there is no reason now to investigate Trump because of the origin of the dossier.  For god's sake, even hyper partisan Gowdy says the FISA/dossier issue should not invalidate the Trump-Russia investigation.

 

So, as long as we can continue to investigate both issues, I am fine with digging a lot deeper into the FISA warrant process and holding any criminals accountable.

[DC Tom]

24 minutes ago, Bob in Mich said:

 

Aren't you sort of ignoring the timeline and the sequence of events.  Trump signed this 8/2/17.  Quite a few events related to the investigation have taken place between June of 2016 (Don Jr meeting) and August of 2017 that may have changed the original plan.  Once the plan was discovered, it couldn't all be carried out without looking more guilty

 

So your evidence of collusion is that the end result is that there's no evidence of collusion, which can only mean that they colluded to not go with the original plan they colluded on?  

 

And this seems rational to you?  

[Bob in Mich]

4 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

 

So your evidence of collusion is that the end result is that there's no evidence of collusion, which can only mean that they colluded to not go with the original plan they colluded on?  

 

And this seems rational to you?  

 

Tom, try adding something to the conversation sometime