/dev/null Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 Don't forget to set on fire first! hence the lighting part of my post
grinreaper Posted March 22, 2017 Posted March 22, 2017 Oh pick a side and go with it for God's sake! Just some advice. Be careful, he's gator bait.
Doc Brown Posted March 22, 2017 Posted March 22, 2017 There is so much hypocrisy on both sides, it's not even funny. The Republican's biggest complaints about HRC were her lying, investigations and corruption. Where are the same complaints about Trump? On the flipside, the Democrats have now become obstructionists after detesting the resistance of the prior eight years. I'm an independent who thinks both sides have some good ideas, and that agreeing to some middle ground is the only long-term solution. A large number of young people like me view this two party, polarized system as an inefficient joke. I'm not trying to call anyone out. I'm just pointing out the ridiculousness on both sides. New to politics? Neither side has ever held the moral high ground in my opinion in my lifetime and all but a few are bought and paid for. Hence, the populist draw with Trump and Sanders this election season. Of course, Trump is a phony populist con man while Sanders is a socialist who would bankrupt this country.
gatorbait Posted March 22, 2017 Posted March 22, 2017 New to politics? Neither side has ever held the moral high ground in my opinion in my lifetime and all but a few are bought and paid for. Hence, the populist draw with Trump and Sanders this election season. Of course, Trump is a phony populist con man while Sanders is a socialist who would bankrupt this country.So are you saying you agree with me? And yes I am fairly new to politics. I'm 29 and never really paid too much attention until campaigning started in 2015. I'm not advocating socialism, but I think everyone here should take a look at the list of the five happiest countries in the world. Six weeks of paid vacation, paid maternity leave, universal healthcare, free drug treatment/rehab for addicts, free mental health treatment covered under healthcare. I could go on, but again, I'm not advocating for socialism or saying it would work here in the States. Just trying to have a reasonable convo.
Azalin Posted March 22, 2017 Posted March 22, 2017 I'm not advocating socialism, but I think everyone here should take a look at the list of the five happiest countries in the world. Six weeks of paid vacation, paid maternity leave, universal healthcare, free drug treatment/rehab for addicts, free mental health treatment covered under healthcare. I could go on, but again, I'm not advocating for socialism or saying it would work here in the States. Just trying to have a reasonable convo. It does indeed sound as if you're advocating socialism, having listed five points you consider as being beneficial, and following up with "I could go on". Are the five happiest countries as you call them leaders in industry, technology, business, agriculture, etc with multicultural populations in excess of 320 million, that have constitutional liberties similar to those that we all enjoy?
/dev/null Posted March 22, 2017 Posted March 22, 2017 It does indeed sound as if you're advocating socialism, having listed five points you consider as being beneficial, and following up with "I could go on". Are the five happiest countries as you call them leaders in industry, technology, business, agriculture, etc with multicultural populations in excess of 320 million, that have constitutional liberties similar to those that we all enjoy? No but they do have Ikea
gatorbait Posted March 22, 2017 Posted March 22, 2017 It does indeed sound as if you're advocating socialism, having listed five points you consider as being beneficial, and following up with "I could go on". Are the five happiest countries as you call them leaders in industry, technology, business, agriculture, etc with multicultural populations in excess of 320 million, that have constitutional liberties similar to those that we all enjoy? I listed a few positives. I would have listed the negatives as well if I would have known it would make you feel better. I said twice that I'm not advocating for socialism, and I also said I'm not saying it would work in the states. Did you miss that part? I know you political people here on ppp like to get all flabbergasted about things but I enjoy having a reasonable debate without the drama. As for the so called list you say. Look it up. The five happiest populations of people are in socialist countries. They pay more taxes to get all that stuff, so of course a lot of people hate the idea. But every possible solution is at least worth considering. In capitalistic countries, money outweighs everything. Some are okay with giving all their tax money to big corporations or the military, personally I think it should go to healthcare and education. 600 billion a year on military and defense? More than the next 7 countries combined? Let's increase it by 10%! China spends 160 billion and Russia spends 60 billion a year on defense. Is it really crazy for me to think we should spend more of our tax money on our people?
Azalin Posted March 22, 2017 Posted March 22, 2017 Is it really crazy for me to think we should spend more of our tax money on our people? Crazy is not how I would describe it. And what exactly is your definition of drama? Or flabbergasted? I thought I was being reasonable. A challenge to one's statements or ideas is not an attack, so don't take it as such. But I would ask you, if you are not advocating socialism for the US, then what's your point? Don't worry about making me feel better, either - you can't. That would imply that you have the ability to make me feel bad. You don't.
gatorbait Posted March 22, 2017 Posted March 22, 2017 Crazy is not how I would describe it. And what exactly is your definition of drama? Or flabbergasted? I thought I was being reasonable. A challenge to one's statements or ideas is not an attack, so don't take it as such. But I would ask you, if you are not advocating socialism for the US, then what's your point? Don't worry about making me feel better, either - you can't. That would imply that you have the ability to make me feel bad. You don't. Scroll up and read. I talked about socialism because someone referenced it in a response to my post. I don't feel attacked, and can handle my own. I obviously hit a nerve with you about a different style of government, reasonable response or not. My point is that it might be beneficial to change our style of thinking when it comes to governing. The US is only number one in economy size and military. We suck at educating our people, providing healthcare and making our citizens happy.
GoBills808 Posted March 22, 2017 Posted March 22, 2017 Scroll up and read. I talked about socialism because someone referenced it in a response to my post. I don't feel attacked, and can handle my own. I obviously hit a nerve with you about a different style of government, reasonable response or not. My point is that it might be beneficial to change our style of thinking when it comes to governing. The US is only number one in economy size and military. We suck at educating our people, providing healthcare and making our citizens happy. I'm something of a reformed socialist. You can't say we suck at those things, at least not in relation to the world at large... we could certainly, however, be doing better. And governance is certainly an aspect relating to socialism, but I wouldn't use the two interchangeably in reference. It's equally a matter of economic theory, which I suppose you could argue is as big a driver of society as is your particular brand of government. Much to consider on the topic, it's great expositionally but you run into some immediate challenges specific to the US when trying to circumvent the materialist theory of history...if you believe in social then you understand it's an inevitability, the ring on the ladder between capitalism and true communism. Good stuff! 'From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs'...
gatorbait Posted March 22, 2017 Posted March 22, 2017 I'm something of a reformed socialist. You can't say we suck at those things, at least not in relation to the world at large... we could certainly, however, be doing better. And governance is certainly an aspect relating to socialism, but I wouldn't use the two interchangeably in reference. It's equally a matter of economic theory, which I suppose you could argue is as big a driver of society as is your particular brand of government. Much to consider on the topic, it's great expositionally but you run into some immediate challenges specific to the US when trying to circumvent the materialist theory of history...if you believe in social then you understand it's an inevitability, the ring on the ladder between capitalism and true communism. Good stuff! 'From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs'... Fair enough and you make some really good points. I admit I don't know the nuances of this stuff. I just think it's sad we are the only major developed nation who doesn't guarantee some basic form of healthcare to their citizens. It's also BS that we aren't in the top 10 when it comes to education. The United States is still the greatest country in the world overall, and there is nowhere I would rather live! It's probably becoming obvious I was a Bernie fan, and I deserve any criticism I get for that. Nobody can change my opinion that he was a better choice than HRC or Trump though. Cheers!
DC Tom Posted March 22, 2017 Posted March 22, 2017 It's probably becoming obvious I was a Bernie fan, and I deserve any criticism I get for that. Nobody can change my opinion that he was a better choice than HRC or Trump though. Cheers! Don't feel bad. I'm an avowed capitalist who hates socialism on principle, and even I think Bernie was a better choice than Clinton or Trump.
GG Posted March 22, 2017 Posted March 22, 2017 Fair enough and you make some really good points. I admit I don't know the nuances of this stuff. I just think it's sad we are the only major developed nation who doesn't guarantee some basic form of healthcare to their citizens. It's also BS that we aren't in the top 10 when it comes to education. The United States is still the greatest country in the world overall, and there is nowhere I would rather live! It's probably becoming obvious I was a Bernie fan, and I deserve any criticism I get for that. Nobody can change my opinion that he was a better choice than HRC or Trump though. Cheers! And yet most of the medical advances come out of the US, and the world wants to go to US universities. Something must be working
Tiberius Posted March 22, 2017 Posted March 22, 2017 Former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort earned tens of millions of dollars from 2006 to 2009 secretly working for a Russian aluminum magnate close to Russian President Vladimir Putin, to promote Putin's interests and undermine anti-Kremlin opposition in former Soviet republics, The Associated Press reported early Wednesday, citing business records and interviews with people familiar with Manafort's dealings. Manafort signed a $10 million annual contract with Oleg Deripaska starting in 2006. Manafort has said he never worked for Russian interests, and he repeated that assertion to AP, saying his work for Deripaska is being mischaracterized as "inappropriate or nefarious" as part of a "smear campaign." On Monday, White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer tried to distance President Trump from Manafort, saying Manafort "played a very limited role for a very limited amount of time" in the campaign. Manafort, who ran Trump's campaign from March into August, has said this year he still speaks with Trump on the phone. http://theweek.com/5things/687539/extrump-campaign-chief-manafort-reportedly-worked-benefit-putin-government
grinreaper Posted March 22, 2017 Posted March 22, 2017 Fair enough and you make some really good points. I admit I don't know the nuances of this stuff. I just think it's sad we are the only major developed nation who doesn't guarantee some basic form of healthcare to their citizens. It's also BS that we aren't in the top 10 when it comes to education. The United States is still the greatest country in the world overall, and there is nowhere I would rather live! It's probably becoming obvious I was a Bernie fan, and I deserve any criticism I get for that. Nobody can change my opinion that he was a better choice than HRC or Trump though. Cheers! Anyone can still walk into an emergency room and get treatment, and that was before Obamacare. Teacher unions and liberal educators at present control education here in the U.S. You might want to consider a name change.
gatorbait Posted March 22, 2017 Posted March 22, 2017 Anyone can still walk into an emergency room and get treatment, and that was before Obamacare. Teacher unions and liberal educators at present control education here in the U.S. You might want to consider a name change. People racking up ER bills with no insurance is not sustainable or fair to the people who experience premium hikes as a result. So that's your excuse why education in the US is lacking? We need to do more, not make excuses or live with the status quo. I live in Florida, graduated from UF, and hunt gators for fun every once in a while. Why should I change my name? Because you think so? And yet most of the medical advances come out of the US, and the world wants to go to US universities. Something must be working I agree. The United States is still the pinnacle of the world for a lot of things. I'm a young newb who probably doesn't know squat compared to a lot of you older guys. I'm prepared to have my ass handed to me over the months or years, but I love to debate and am a sucker for punishment.
IDBillzFan Posted March 22, 2017 Posted March 22, 2017 People racking up ER bills with no insurance is not sustainable or fair to the people who experience premium hikes as a result. So that's your excuse why education in the US is lacking? We need to do more, not make excuses or live with the status quo. So to recap, it's not fair or sustainable for people to experience premium hikes to cover people who don't have insurance. And the answer is to make people experience premium hikes and reduced coverage so we can cover people with an unsustainable program created and run by the federal government? Sheesh. If that's changing the status quo...
Dorkington Posted March 22, 2017 Posted March 22, 2017 To be fair, preventative healthcare is significantly cheaper than going to the ER with something terrible.
gatorbait Posted March 22, 2017 Posted March 22, 2017 (edited) So to recap, it's not fair or sustainable for people to experience premium hikes to cover people who don't have insurance. And the answer is to make people experience premium hikes and reduced coverage so we can cover people with an unsustainable program created and run by the federal government? Sheesh. If that's changing the status quo... Where did I say that is the answer? Don't start calling me a liberal dumbass because I'm an independent. Single payer systems around the world work. I did my graduate thesis on other health systems and how the US could improve theirs. I would seriously love to continue this discussion if you are game. That's the only way to control costs, and regulate prices for medicines, procedures and medical equipment. Right now we have a medical system where profits are number one, and providing care is secondary. Waiting times are ridiculous for the average citizen, and those other systems still have flaws, but they are significantly more affordable for everyone. Rich people and high level employees still would get amazing private insurance with the best doctors/surgeons and all the concierge services you could imagine. And let's not forget, healthcare costs and premiums have been rising for decades. It's not a matter of if we should change our ways, it's a matter of when and how we should change. Edited March 22, 2017 by gatorbait
GG Posted March 22, 2017 Posted March 22, 2017 Where did I say that is the answer? Don't start calling me a liberal dumbass because I'm an independent. Single payer systems around the world work. I did my graduate thesis on other health systems and how the US could improve theirs. Did you study access to healthcare or timely access to healthcare? There's never, ever such a thing as a free lunch.
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