B-Man Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 V. P. Mike Pence at the White House............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 I wasn't responding to a question. I was responding to your statement that the Russians wanted a friendlier president in the White House. You mean you don't think Putin really wants the cyber security coordination? Can't see the collusion forest because the collusion trees are blocking your view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Brown Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 I wasn't responding to a question. I was responding to your statement that the Russians wanted a friendlier president in the White House. Yeah and Putin had some harsh words for Hillary in December of 2011 after he thought her comments about the Russian parliamentary being potentially rigged caused the mass Russian protests. Her reputation as being the most hawkish in the Obama administration is another reason US/Russia relations could have been a disaster under her presidency which is vital especially right now. We'll see what happens with Trump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Reading the list I can see that Obama continued many Bush policies Which is my point. You're too blinded by partisanship to see the agenda doesn't change on the issues that matter between administrations. That should be very illuminating with regards to how much the political parties matter. They are distractions. Designed to cause tribalism (my team is better than yours) which has metastasized in our current political climate into "trump is a Nazi/Russian plant" and gets you to focus on the noise rather than the signal. It gets you so worked up and enraged you're (the geneal you're not you specifically) too blinded by righteous indignation to look any deeper. The signal is we are all getting screwed by a government that no longer functions as intended. We do not live in a republic, we live in an oligarchy. Changing presidents won't do change that. Focusing on political parties or claiming one side is better than the other won't fix that because they're both the same. The only thing that will fix it is to first realize it's happened and that all this "Obama was better than bush and trump" is meaningless noise designed to placate you. (Again, General you not you specially) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 "Changing presidents won't do change that." Reagan was a billion times better than Carter. Carter was a billion times worse than Nixon. Not much else has made a diff over the last 60 or so years. Same old same old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 "Changing presidents won't do change that." Typing too fast between meetings... embarrassing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Yeah and Putin had some harsh words for Hillary in December of 2011 after he thought her comments about the Russian parliamentary being potentially rigged caused the mass Russian protests. Her reputation as being the most hawkish in the Obama administration is another reason US/Russia relations could have been a disaster under her presidency which is vital especially right now. We'll see what happens with Trump. You don't think they are a disaster now? you know the suspicion is that 2018 will see the same attempts to undermine our elections. I know you are not worried, you said so. But I'd say the threat is real and I'd call that sending us down the road towards a disaster. But ok, Hillary is just Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Yes, to dampen support for Hillary you complete idiot. Dampen? Like with a cloth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Which is my point. You're too blinded by partisanship to see the agenda doesn't change on the issues that matter between administrations. That should be very illuminating with regards to how much the political parties matter. They are distractions. Designed to cause tribalism (my team is better than yours) which has metastasized in our current political climate into "trump is a Nazi/Russian plant" and gets you to focus on the noise rather than the signal. It gets you so worked up and enraged you're (the geneal you're not you specifically) too blinded by righteous indignation to look any deeper. The signal is we are all getting screwed by a government that no longer functions as intended. We do not live in a republic, we live in an oligarchy. Changing presidents won't do change that. Focusing on political parties or claiming one side is better than the other won't fix that because they're both the same. The only thing that will fix it is to first realize it's happened and that all this "Obama was better than bush and trump" is meaningless noise designed to placate you. (Again, General you not you specially) Have I railed against Republicans or Frump? The latter is the correct answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Here's one of the other issues that no one considers: We're seeing lots of conjecture and narrative that's short of hard evidence - not one damn thing that's been released so far does anything other than reinforce everyone's preconceived notions. And it's being leaked slowly over a long time frame. This sort of slow-rolling of empty innuendo is exactly what you would do if you wanted to weaken the administration and the federal government. Call in to question the administration's credibility, and make the federal government focus on this to the exclusion of other issues. Frankly, anyone who honestly believes the Russians influenced the election should also consider it a strong possibility that the Russians are manipulating this story as well - they derive little benefit from having a "stooge" in the White House, since the president isn't all-powerful, but significantly benefit from being able to weaken the president and distract Congress. I believe there's a lot to this. And I think Don Jr. got played like a fiddle in that regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Brown Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Have I railed against Republicans or Frump? The latter is the correct answer. You're missing the point. You have to ask yourself how did Trump (and Bernie) on the other side got such support this election running populist campaigns despite being unconventional candidates? The reason is the US is turning into an oligarchy and people are waking up to that fact. Most politicians give the illusion of fighting for you when they're only enriching themselves on behests of their donors representing large coorporations. Like George Carlin said years ago, "It's a big club and you ain't in it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 I've lived through the accusation that Nixon interfered with the end of the Vietnam War by discussions behind the scenes during his 1968 campaign, and that Reagan interfered with the hostages release from Iran during his 1980 campaign. Both were very serious accusations if true, both have never been proven, and it is far more likely that a cease-fire offer was just a gimmick by LBJ to help out Humphrey. Carter couldn't have negotiated anything in a useful fashion. So this isn't even an ant hill to the mountain of serious national interest. But snowflakes gotta snowflake. Carter negotiated the release of the hostages in Tehran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 I believe there's a lot to this. And I think Don Jr. got played like a fiddle in that regard. I don't know that there is or not...but you really can't accept one and discount the other if you're a rational human being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 I don't know that there is or not...but you really can't accept one and discount the other if you're a rational human being. I hear that. It's just interesting that the Russian lawyer lady waited until after Don Jr. equivocated on his original story before speaking up. If she had before he changed his story, it would have been easier to accept. It's also interesting to see all the tapes of Don Jr. and Manafort from last July denying up and down any meetings with Russians, etc. AFTER they both attended this very meeting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 (edited) Have I railed against Republicans or Frump? The latter is the correct answer. And by doing so, you're playing into the partisan game, which only furthers the decline of the political discourse in this country and distracts the majority of people who aren't paying attention to the news outside the headlines. I've said since last year that if there is real evidence presented, I'll happily listen. And I mean it. Despite my out-of-the-box thinking in the Deep State thread, I have said repeatedly in that thread I'm open to new ideas and evidence and willing to admit I'm wrong. But so far, over a year into this investigation/narrative, there hasn't been any evidence of collusion or that the election "meddling" changed a single vote. (Conversely, there's been voluminous evidence proving the thesis of that thread that we are indeed in the middle of a deep state war since January... but I digress.) So if it's not stopping collusion, and if it's not about protecting the integrity of our elections -- what is it really about? Politics. Partisan politics. Mixed with an information war ongoing between oligarchs who are using their political parties and media outlets as their proxies to not just score points on their opponents, but to confuse and mislead the public in general. I'm arguing that by focusing on the noise, you're missing the signal. As Doc said, the signal is that our republic has fallen into an oligarchy. Until we fix that, everything connected to this Russia/Trump story is merely re-arranging the furniture in a burning house and pretending that'll put out the fire. This Russian narrative actively undermines an incoming administration and has undermined the confidence in our election process while those pushing the narrative claim they are trying to protect that very process. It's backwards. Who does that kind of narrative really serve? The oligarchs and industries who see Trump's nationalistic policies as a threat to exposing the whole ballgame. That doesn't mean I believe Trump is a chess master, that doesn't mean I even support the guy. It just means that this narrative stinks to high heaven and under the surface serves several different groups simultaneously - groups that very openly do not give a rat's ass about restoring our republic, protecting our country, or the peoples' interests. So why are you carrying the water for these groups? The only good thing to come out of this election cycle is that people are energized for real change. Now we just have to get people focused on the right issues. And the right issue has nothing - and I mean nothing - to do with Russian election meddling. imo of course. You're missing the point. You have to ask yourself how did Trump (and Bernie) on the other side got such support this election running populist campaigns despite being unconventional candidates? The reason is the US is turning into an oligarchy and people are waking up to that fact. Most politicians give the illusion of fighting for you when they're only enriching themselves on behests of their donors representing large coorporations. Like George Carlin said years ago, "It's a big club and you ain't in it." Edited July 11, 2017 by Deranged Rhino Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Sometimes it's fun watching Fox News Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Franklin Posted July 11, 2017 Author Share Posted July 11, 2017 Yeah...but it's still 1) consistent with how the Russians operate, and 2) makes the most sense of everything we know. Any time Greg toasts me I get worried about my sanity. But still, every time I think this through, it best connects the bull **** we're hearing. Will you just !@#$ off already? Jesus... It's also consistent with the time it takes to develop sources and get verification on stories. When the pee video gets released, I'll be on your side. The ugly part of this is Baby Trump not disclosing this a long time ago. That's more than incompetence. It's not collusion with Ruskies but it is covering up stuff. Makes you wonder how much more is under wraps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Sometimes it's fun watching Fox News what will it take to keep you from ever posting here again? because, i'd like to make every effort possible to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 It's also consistent with the time it takes to develop sources and get verification on stories. When the pee video gets released, I'll be on your side. The ugly part of this is Baby Trump not disclosing this a long time ago. That's more than incompetence. It's not collusion with Ruskies but it is covering up stuff. Makes you wonder how much more is under wraps. It's not that he didn't disclose it a long time ago so much as he railed and denied any involvement with Russian contacts to no end weeks after the meeting took place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Franklin Posted July 11, 2017 Author Share Posted July 11, 2017 (edited) It's not that he didn't disclose it a long time ago so much as he railed and denied any involvement with Russian contacts to no end weeks after the meeting took place. Tree. . . . . . . Apple. Edited July 11, 2017 by Benjamin Franklin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts