Trump kept Pence in dark about Flynn's Russia Calls

[Tiberius]

 

 

According to the NYT, it was intercepted

 

On the other hand, the third paragraph says it didn't happen.

 

Must be great to be the NYT. They're like the gator of news publications.

Who cares that they had repeated contacts with Russia. The Republicans won, so its all good. God Bless the GOP. Spit on USA

 

Trump uber alles

 

 

The taint of treason

[Deranged Rhino]

How does anyone know what Flynn spoke with Russians about, or that he even made that call? Wasn't he still a private citizen at the time? Wouldn't a warrant be required to tap or otherwise monitor his calls or obtain phone records? Has anyone produced a warrant? Has the intelligence agency who reported this been identified? It seems to me that some important pieces in this story are missing, and I've barely heard anyone address any of it.

 

Ding ding ding.

 

This is exactly what was warned about in the Dangers of Our New Normal thread... the ability of elements within the IC to use the surveillance state to push their own political agenda on US citizens who dissent or threaten their power.

 

We are witnessing a power struggle between parties that have no oversight and despite being unelected have dictated policy and the direction this country heads for decades. Now that people are starting to see the game behind the scenes, it's time to start demanding change and reform of these sorts of unchecked systems.

[DC Tom]

Who cares that they had repeated contacts with Russia. The Republicans won, so its all good. God Bless the GOP. Spit on USA

 

Trump uber alles

 

 

The taint of treason

 

It amazes me that Hillary supporters would be up in arms about this. Do any of you have any idea what "self-awareness" is?

How does anyone know what Flynn spoke with Russians about, or that he even made that call? Wasn't he still a private citizen at the time? Wouldn't a warrant be required to tap or otherwise monitor his calls or obtain phone records? Has anyone produced a warrant? Has the intelligence agency who reported this been identified? It seems to me that some important pieces in this story are missing, and I've barely heard anyone address any of it.

 

I'd just kind-of assumed he was on a White House line, that's always recorded.

[Deranged Rhino]

I'd just kind-of assumed he was on a White House line, that's always recorded.

 

It was his cell phone from what I've heard -- which is even MORE ridiculous. (on his part)

[Tiberius]

 

It amazes me that Hillary supporters would be up in arms about this. Do any of you have any idea what "self-awareness" is?

 

How was I to know, Hillary was with the Russians too?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Send Lawyers....

 

 

 

New Day, same Obfuscation....its all Hillary's fault

[B-Man]

 

It amazes me that Hillary supporters would be up in arms about this. Do any of you have any idea what "self-awareness" is?

 

 

The answer is in the question Tom.............I really don't know why you still bother with the occasional question.

 

He takes a simplistic point about comparing Hillary and her followers previous actions with foreign governments,

 

and turns it into a 2nd grade."you're blaming Hillary"

 

 

Gator IS NOT capable of a rational discussion.........

[Azalin]

I'd just kind-of assumed he was on a White House line, that's always recorded.

 

But the call(s) supposedly took place before Trump was sworn in, therefore I would assume there wouldn't even be access for Flynn to use a White House phone line.

 

 

It was his cell phone from what I've heard -- which is even MORE ridiculous. (on his part)

 

But again, If he was not yet active in his job as national security advisor, by what right does any intelligence or law enforcement agency have in "intercepting" (whatever the hell that means) any of his phone calls, emails, or anything without a warrant.

 

In addition, has anyone from intelligence or law enforcement even been named as being the one to provide this evidence?

[Deranged Rhino]

 

But again, If he was not yet active in his job as national security advisor, by what right does any intelligence or law enforcement agency have in "intercepting" (whatever the hell that means) any of his phone calls, emails, or anything without a warrant.

 

In addition, has anyone from intelligence or law enforcement even been named as being the one to provide this evidence?

 

I'm with you. What we're seeing here is the true reason the IC has been illegally spying on Americans for over a decade, collecting their information and call logs. It's never been about preventing terrorism, it's been about control. Specifically, being able to destroy anyone who threatens their hold on the steering wheel:

 

 

Believe me, there was nothing BS about that statement. They've been collecting your metadata for over a decade, from that information they can paint an unbelievably accurate portrait of who you are, who you talk to, what causes you donate to, what belief systems you subscribe to, literally everything there is to know about you. And it'll all be 100% accurate -- accurate enough to sway any sort of court of public opinion about you if they so wished. However, just because they know who you talk to, how long you talk to them, where you go, how long you stay there, where you bank, where you shop, what you purchase, what public transportation you ride, exactly where you are located every single second of the day -- just because they know all that doesn't mean they know the truth about you, what you were doing, why you were there. All they can do is paint a picture. All of this is legal to collect and analyze without needing a warrant or any sort of judicial oversight right now, today, this very moment.

 

You've seen Twitter outrage take down numerous public and private figures since the emergence of social media. This trend has only just begun. The populous is monitored more than ever before, and easier to manipulate than ever before.... And the US Government, not to mention foreign governments, corporations, even potentially criminal elements (according to the article) are collecting every bit of digital and analogue information about you.

 

That should be chilling. Not because it sounds paranoid. But because it's already !@#$ing happening.

[DC Tom]

 

But the call(s) supposedly took place before Trump was sworn in, therefore I would assume there wouldn't even be access for Flynn to use a White House phone line.

 

I'm honestly not sure. I doubt they boot the old national security advisor out early...but at the same time, he is vacating his office during the transition, and the new NSA is in the White House at least occasionally. And the new guy may not even move into the same office. At the same time...even if he's not in the White House, he is in the OEOB, and I know of no regulations prohibiting the recording of those lines for the incoming administration (particularly considering they're arguably as subject to Presidential Records Act as for the sitting president.)

 

I just don't know, and would consider it "no big deal" until I know (and probably would still consider it "no big deal," unless it turned out the CIA bugged his cell phone or something.)

[Azalin]

 

I'm with you. What we're seeing here is the true reason the IC has been illegally spying on Americans for over a decade, collecting their information and call logs. It's never been about preventing terrorism, it's been about control. Specifically, being able to destroy anyone who threatens their hold on the steering wheel:

 

 

It's all way too convenient if you ask me. I'm not trying to defend Flynn - if he did violate rules or laws, then there should certainly be consequences, but the manner in which this is coming about doesn't pass the smell test at all. It looks too much like a sour grapes campaign on the part of the Hillary camp/DNC with all the innuendo and accusations of supposed Russian interference in the election, of which there's been no evidence. But lack of evidence hasn't seemed to matter - news agencies gleefully pass this crap along as if it were a legitimate story, fueling a democrat electorate already spastic with anger to even higher levels of outrage. If there is any evidence against Flynn that warrant his disqualification for the post, then they should be made known. Once he's in office and actually working for the public, then that's one thing. Since he was still presumably a private citizen at the time, then he still has all the same rights as the rest of us.

 

 

I'm honestly not sure. I doubt they boot the old national security advisor out early...but at the same time, he is vacating his office during the transition, and the new NSA is in the White House at least occasionally. And the new guy may not even move into the same office. At the same time...even if he's not in the White House, he is in the OEOB, and I know of no regulations prohibiting the recording of those lines for the incoming administration (particularly considering they're arguably as subject to Presidential Records Act as for the sitting president.)

 

I just don't know, and would consider it "no big deal" until I know (and probably would still consider it "no big deal," unless it turned out the CIA bugged his cell phone or something.)

 

Still seems fishy to me. Maybe it's not all that big a deal, but I tend to share DR's concerns with regard to privacy.

[Tiberius]

Ding ding ding.

 

This is exactly what was warned about in the Dangers of Our New Normal thread... the ability of elements within the IC to use the surveillance state to push their own political agenda on US citizens who dissent or threaten their power.

 

We are witnessing a power struggle between parties that have no oversight and despite being unelected have dictated policy and the direction this country heads for decades. Now that people are starting to see the game behind the scenes, it's time to start demanding change and reform of these sorts of unchecked systems.

Or maybe they are patriots leaking info because they hate what Trump did with the cooperation of the Russians

[Meathead]

my understanding is that it was an incoming call from russia and thus they dont need a search warrant to tap it. doesnt matter who it was going to

[Tiberius]

I'm with you. What we're seeing here is the true reason the IC has been illegally spying on Americans for over a decade, collecting their information and call logs. It's never been about preventing terrorism, it's been about control. Specifically, being able to destroy anyone who threatens their hold on the steering wheel:

 

So it would be a bad thing if they were looking into contacts between a hostile foreign power and a candidate for president or his team? Seems like you want to cripple our ability to defend ourselves from Cyber Putin

[Chef Jim]

Or maybe they are patriots leaking info because they hate what Trump did with the cooperation of the Russians

 

So are you on record as saying anything illegal or immoral is ok as long as it's perpetrated against a person you dislike?'

 

Also what cooperation between Trump and Russia are you talking about and can we get some proof of this cooperation?

[Tiberius]

So are you on record as saying anything illegal or immoral is ok as long as it's perpetrated against a person you dislike?'

 

Also what cooperation between Trump and Russia are you talking about and can we get some proof of this cooperation?

 

Oh no, find those leakers!

 

What cooperation is the question. Right now we have a lot of evidence that something happened, but exactly what and why, still needs to be answered. It would be terrible though if an illegal leak got Trump thrown in jail. I disapprove of leaks

[Azalin]

my understanding is that it was an incoming call from russia and thus they dont need a search warrant to tap it. doesnt matter who it was going to

 

You can't place a tap on people's phones without a warrant. Remember, a tap has to be in place on the phone that's receiving the call, and they have to be monitoring the citizen's phone to even know where the call is coming from.

 

If any of that is incorrect, please cite your source.

 

 

So are you on record as saying anything illegal or immoral is ok as long as it's perpetrated against a person you dislike?'

 

Also what cooperation between Trump and Russia are you talking about and can we get some proof of this cooperation?

 

Dude, seriously. Why do you even bother? Half to three-quarters of us have him blocked, but between you and Tom quoting him all the time there's no escape.

[Tiberius]

 

 

 

Foreign power was hacking our election, interphereing in it, trying to throw it, and it was in contact with Trumps team at the same time

[Chef Jim]

Oh no, find those leakers!

 

What cooperation is the question. Right now we have a lot of evidence that something happened, but exactly what and why, still needs to be answered. It would be terrible though if an illegal leak got Trump thrown in jail. I disapprove of leaks

 

Of course any self respecting Hillary follower would disapprove of leaks. They get their candidate stuck in the unemployment line.

[Tiberius]

Of course any self respecting Hillary follower would disapprove of leaks. They get their candidate stuck in the unemployment line.

Oh, so it was leaks? Too bad for America, she would easily have been a better president than doofus. Especially if it turns out Trump is a traitor

[Deranged Rhino]

 

It's all way too convenient if you ask me. I'm not trying to defend Flynn - if he did violate rules or laws, then there should certainly be consequences, but the manner in which this is coming about doesn't pass the smell test at all. It looks too much like a sour grapes campaign on the part of the Hillary camp/DNC with all the innuendo and accusations of supposed Russian interference in the election, of which there's been no evidence. But lack of evidence hasn't seemed to matter - news agencies gleefully pass this crap along as if it were a legitimate story, fueling a democrat electorate already spastic with anger to even higher levels of outrage. If there is any evidence against Flynn that warrant his disqualification for the post, then they should be made known. Once he's in office and actually working for the public, then that's one thing. Since he was still presumably a private citizen at the time, then he still has all the same rights as the rest of us.

 

I fully agree that if there was any misdeeds on the part of Flynn, which as you pointed out have yet to be corroborated or proven, then he deserves to be ousted. I also agree with your other thoughts in the above quote.

 

What I see with how this story has unfolded is the deliberate interference of factions within the IC who are hellbent on holding onto the power they've had for decades. While that's admittedly a fringe theory, when you look at the past few years with regards to how the IC has utilized their spying tools on US citizens it certainly has a bit more teeth than it would otherwise.

 

Russia has been positioned, deliberately, since 2013 (after Romney lost) to be the geopolitical foe we need to be most afraid of. They primed the pump, so to speak, for years -- and when HRC's campaign went breasts up, they used the tools at their disposal, laws be damned, to influence the national discourse and undermine the administration.

 

This is an information war, to me, between two sides of group that operates without accountability or oversight and have been dictating the direction we've taken as a country for decades. The good part of it, for us, is that we are getting a clear glimpse behind the curtain through Wikileaks, through the way the media is acting, through the way the IC is acting, through the way the political discourse has completely broken down, that this group exists.

 

Now that we're starting to wake up to that reality, we can't just sit back and let them regroup, reorganize and disappear again. We have to work harder than ever to shine the light even deeper into the shadows in my opinion. That's the only way we can protect the institutions and principles our ancestors gave their lives for, the principles that make this country a beacon. It takes courage to really grapple with these issues because they fly in the face of nearly everything we're told since grade school.

Edited February 15, 2017 by Deranged Rhino