Meathead Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 yeah like sheep make great girlfriends Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prickly Pete Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 (edited) With automation and robotics advancing to such a degree many jobs (both blue and white collar) are on the verge of being extinct, so a lot of big names have been pushing for varying forms of UBI. The founder of E-bay is running a UBI experiment in Kenya and countries such as India are toying with implementing their own systems. I'm (clearly) not an economist but know there are plenty of excellent minds on this site who know that world and I'm curious about the pros and cons of this concept. All opinions are welcome, just looking to hear some thoughts on this subject as I have yet to form my own. https://qz.com/907943/ebay-founder-pierre-omidyar-is-financing-a-universal-basic-income-experiment/ https://futurism.com/4-another-case-for-ubi-ebay-founder-funds-basic-income-experiment-in-kenya/ https://futurism.com/elon-musk-theres-a-pretty-good-chance-well-end-up-with-universal-basic-income/ http://www.businessinsider.com/finlands-biggest-trade-union-a-universal-basic-income-is-useless-2017-2 http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21716064-powerful-idea-unfeasible-now-india-floats-idea-universal I have been talking about automation for years, and it is another reason why I wonder what the motivations are, behind insisting on admitting massive amounts of immigrants right now. It seems counter-intuitive. I am convinced that many paper pushing type industries (like insurance) were being maintained to provide jobs. Signs of automation replacing people have been obvious (like when you go to an older bank, and there are 15 teller windows, but only 3 tellers). I have given thought to rearranging the standard work week into 4 day (or even two 3-day ) periods, and changing the standard 2-day weekend. Edited February 16, 2017 by HoF Watkins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinga Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 It was tried as an experiment in a Manitoba town years ago... This is the Huffpo, but is still a good read about it tht shows both pros and cons: http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/12/23/mincome-in-dauphin-manitoba_n_6335682.html A couple quotes.... “She said she wanted to get some job training. They told her to go home and take care of her kids and they would take care of her,” explained Forget. and... So in 1979, it was business as usual again. After Mincome folded, people tapped into their prairie work ethic and looked to make do however they could. The Richardson family went back to scraping by, the same way they had before the project began. The kids found jobs: one sold gas at the local garage, another landed entry-level work in insurance. First one was idiocy in that it refused training for work, but the second shows that during the subsidies, it seemed they were content to collect, instead of working since the kids found work almost immediately after the program shut down,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 yeah like sheep make great girlfriendsas a man who can speak to this, obviously. Referring to you. Not me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbillievable Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 It was tried as an experiment in a Manitoba town years ago... This is the Huffpo, but is still a good read about it tht shows both pros and cons: http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/12/23/mincome-in-dauphin-manitoba_n_6335682.html A couple quotes.... and... First one was idiocy in that it refused training for work, but the second shows that during the subsidies, it seemed they were content to collect, instead of working since the kids found work almost immediately after the program shut down,,, Once the conservative government took over, the program was stopped because it ran out of money. So the experimental town needed massive amounts of outside funding to maintain the UBI system. The taxes they collected within the town were not enough to cover the cost. So if this program had been implemented nation wide, where is the money going to come from? Mexico? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azalin Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 Why are people so against automation when they don't give a crap about any of the other ways that changes bring about job loss? I never see people speaking out against ride sharing because it takes away jobs from taxi drivers or bus drivers. How many people treated the advent of cable television as a threat? After all, it takes viewership away from traditional television networks, costing them jobs and money as well. Do you have a wireless phone? Have you canceled your land line service? Do you know how many union technician jobs have been lost because of that? Similar examples are endless. It's called progress, and it happens in every industry, large or small, and people are too easily made to fear it for it's inevitable loss of jobs. While jobs are eliminated by progress, new ones are created. The automation of factories and assembly plants not only ensure a consistent product, but also move people out of unskilled and often dangerous jobs, while creating the need to people to engineer, operate, and maintain them. I think that people are allowing themselves to be manipulated into having what's nothing more than a selective fear of progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 (edited) Why are people so against automation when they don't give a crap about any of the other ways that changes bring about job loss? I never see people speaking out against ride sharing because it takes away jobs from taxi drivers or bus drivers. How many people treated the advent of cable television as a threat? After all, it takes viewership away from traditional television networks, costing them jobs and money as well. Do you have a wireless phone? Have you canceled your land line service? Do you know how many union technician jobs have been lost because of that? Similar examples are endless. It's called progress, and it happens in every industry, large or small, and people are too easily made to fear it for it's inevitable loss of jobs. While jobs are eliminated by progress, new ones are created. The automation of factories and assembly plants not only ensure a consistent product, but also move people out of unskilled and often dangerous jobs, while creating the need to people to engineer, operate, and maintain them. I think that people are allowing themselves to be manipulated into having what's nothing more than a selective fear of progress. I don't think anyone is afraid of progress. But there is going to be a massive economic disruption in the next couple decades unlike anything seen previously. Entire industries will be automated all at once, with no soft landing for the people affected by it. The question is what do you do with the millions of people put out of work? If you do nothing with them, they're liable to do something the nation will regret. Also your ride sharing example is a bad one because at least for now it employs people. Edited February 19, 2017 by joesixpack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 Once the conservative government took over, the program was stopped because it ran out of money. And that my friend is Socialism's fatal flaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 Referring to you. Not me. Most unexpected plot twist I've seen in a while. You should give tips to Greggy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snafu Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 And that my friend is Socialism's fatal flaw Socialism's fatal flaw is that in order to sustain it, governments have to resort to totalitarianism. Because the vast majority of people won't voluntarily stick to the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 The question is what do you do with the millions of people put out of work? Based on the last eight years, I believe the answer is "Wait for them to quit looking for work and then tell everyone how you lowered the unemployment rate." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 Once the conservative government took over, the program was stopped because it ran out of money. So the experimental town needed massive amounts of outside funding to maintain the UBI system. The taxes they collected within the town were not enough to cover the cost. So if this program had been implemented nation wide, where is the money going to come from? Mexico? Simple. They're going to get a bailout - aren't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Sack Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 Imagine how much worse the opiate epidemic will be in Appalachia once we start giving 28 million Hillbillies a $1000 / month check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meathead Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 >> The question is what do you do with the millions of people put out of work? eventually we will convert to a service economy. everyone will seek to contribute based on their talents, for most ppl their service will become their life. the accumulation of stuff especially money will be seen as a weakness, which it is. social currency will become more important than monetary compensation, which either disappears or remains as a fraction of its former importance and utility long long ways off from that, tho. lots of pain among the population until we get there, too. and were gonna have to stop putting so much importance on cranking out babies, we really dont need to be making as many as we are anymore. all in all its gonna be a very tough transition but one we absolutely will make eventually Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azalin Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 I don't think anyone is afraid of progress. But there is going to be a massive economic disruption in the next couple decades unlike anything seen previously. Entire industries will be automated all at once, with no soft landing for the people affected by it. The question is what do you do with the millions of people put out of work? If you do nothing with them, they're liable to do something the nation will regret. Also your ride sharing example is a bad one because at least for now it employs people. What industries are going to automate that haven't begun to do so already, and why do you say it will happen in a couple of decades and all at once? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 >> The question is what do you do with the millions of people put out of work? eventually we will convert to a service economy. everyone will seek to contribute based on their talents, for most ppl their service will become their life. the accumulation of stuff especially money will be seen as a weakness, which it is. social currency will become more important than monetary compensation, which either disappears or remains as a fraction of its former importance and utility long long ways off from that, tho. lots of pain among the population until we get there, too. and were gonna have to stop putting so much importance on cranking out babies, we really dont need to be making as many as we are anymore. all in all its gonna be a very tough transition but one we absolutely will make eventually Oh, look. Another Roddenberry socialist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 Oh, look. Another Roddenberry socialist. i've had similar conversations a few times with other Trekkers. but we always ended up agreeing to disagree and moved onto more pressing discussions like Kirk v Picard Picard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 Imagine how much worse the opiate epidemic will be in Appalachia once we start giving 28 million Hillbillies a $1000 / month check.or those millennial bitches in NYC enjoying it to you pompous dick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 (edited) What industries are going to automate that haven't begun to do so already, and why do you say it will happen in a couple of decades and all at once? AI and robotics are both on exponential trajectories. Don't be surprised to see most call center and manufacturing jobs to disappear in the next decade. Then there's driving jobs, trucking and transportation. Those three sectors alone count for millions of jobs for mostly unskilled workers. I'm not saying advancement is bad. I'm saying you'll have to do something for the people who lose out because of it or you'll have an insurrection. Edited February 20, 2017 by joesixpack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 >> The question is what do you do with the millions of people put out of work? eventually we will convert to a service economy. everyone will seek to contribute based on their talents, for most ppl their service will become their life. the accumulation of stuff especially money will be seen as a weakness, which it is. social currency will become more important than monetary compensation, which either disappears or remains as a fraction of its former importance and utility long long ways off from that, tho. lots of pain among the population until we get there, too. and were gonna have to stop putting so much importance on cranking out babies, we really dont need to be making as many as we are anymore. all in all its gonna be a very tough transition but one we absolutely will make eventually Oh Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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