Deranged Rhino Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 With automation and robotics advancing to such a degree many jobs (both blue and white collar) are on the verge of being extinct, so a lot of big names have been pushing for varying forms of UBI. The founder of E-bay is running a UBI experiment in Kenya and countries such as India are toying with implementing their own systems. I'm (clearly) not an economist but know there are plenty of excellent minds on this site who know that world and I'm curious about the pros and cons of this concept. All opinions are welcome, just looking to hear some thoughts on this subject as I have yet to form my own. https://qz.com/907943/ebay-founder-pierre-omidyar-is-financing-a-universal-basic-income-experiment/ https://futurism.com/4-another-case-for-ubi-ebay-founder-funds-basic-income-experiment-in-kenya/ https://futurism.com/elon-musk-theres-a-pretty-good-chance-well-end-up-with-universal-basic-income/ http://www.businessinsider.com/finlands-biggest-trade-union-a-universal-basic-income-is-useless-2017-2 http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21716064-powerful-idea-unfeasible-now-india-floats-idea-universal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keepthefaith Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 With automation and robotics advancing to such a degree many jobs (both blue and white collar) are on the verge of being extinct, so a lot of big names have been pushing for varying forms of UBI. The founder of E-bay is running a UBI experiment in Kenya and countries such as India are toying with implementing their own systems. I'm (clearly) not an economist but know there are plenty of excellent minds on this site who know that world and I'm curious about the pros and cons of this concept. All opinions are welcome, just looking to hear some thoughts on this subject as I have yet to form my own. https://qz.com/907943/ebay-founder-pierre-omidyar-is-financing-a-universal-basic-income-experiment/ https://futurism.com/4-another-case-for-ubi-ebay-founder-funds-basic-income-experiment-in-kenya/ https://futurism.com/elon-musk-theres-a-pretty-good-chance-well-end-up-with-universal-basic-income/ http://www.businessinsider.com/finlands-biggest-trade-union-a-universal-basic-income-is-useless-2017-2 http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21716064-powerful-idea-unfeasible-now-india-floats-idea-universal Here in the U.S. we've been practicing this for decades through various federal and state assistance programs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Sack Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Richard Nixon kicked this idea around way back in 1969. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPS Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Prefer a "job guarantee" over BIG. Something for nothing versus doing something productive to receive an minimum income. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 At first, quick glance I thought this said "Universal Bacon Income," and I was all for it. "Universal Basic Income" is a misnomer. It's a subsidy, or permanent unconditional unemployment insurance, or a host of other names. But it's not "income" in any sense of the word, as it's not earned in any way. And the simple fact that they have to euphemise it indicates its supporters are selling a sack of magic beans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grinreaper Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 At first, quick glance I thought this said "Universal Bacon Income," and I was all for it. "Universal Basic Income" is a misnomer. It's a subsidy, or permanent unconditional unemployment insurance, or a host of other names. But it's not "income" in any sense of the word, as it's not earned in any way. And the simple fact that they have to euphemise it indicates its supporters are selling a sack of magic beans. I guess it's just a different way to bring home the bacon, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 I was thinking about this the other night: what happens when every low wage worker is automated out of a job? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbillievable Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 I was thinking about this the other night: what happens when every low wage worker is automated out of a job? They learn how to be medium wage workers. In reality. It will never happen. People will get pushed to do other work, and that category will be the new "low wage worker". This is the same worry people had when they said that the xerox machine will replace the steno pool. Civilization always finds a use for a willing labor force... until the day you start paying them to stay at home and do nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Either UBI, or increasing subsidization of basic necessities (food/housing/education/healthcare) is going to be absolutely necessary as we further automate jobs away. I don't think we'll realize that as a country until it's too late though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 They learn how to be medium wage workers. In reality. It will never happen. People will get pushed to do other work, and that category will be the new "low wage worker". This is the same worry people had when they said that the xerox machine will replace the steno pool. Civilization always finds a use for a willing labor force... until the day you start paying them to stay at home and do nothing. Not everyone can be a coder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azalin Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 I was thinking about this the other night: what happens when every low wage worker is automated out of a job? My honest answer to that question is for people to learn robotics and programming technology. Even an associates degree from a local community college can tech you what you need. In a free society people will always be responsible for learning or developing a marketable skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Think about how maintenance works right now. Usually one, or a small group, for tens or hundreds of deployed machines. Coders? Coders make the base, that can be installed thousands wide. An efficient robot could replace multiple humans, and multiple robots would only be supported by a couple humans. So yeah, "everyone" could learn how to do the work, yet the jobs wouldn't be there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Not everyone can be a coder. And yet, ditch digging remains king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 (edited) My honest answer to that question is for people to learn robotics and programming technology. Even an associates degree from a local community college can tech you what you need. In a free society people will always be responsible for learning or developing a marketable skill. To expect a 50 year old former trucker to learn to code is a bit of a stretch. And the larger issue is: what happens when EVERYONE is automated out of work? It will happen eventually.And yet, ditch digging remains king. Honestly I think this is what it'll come down to: make work. Edited February 13, 2017 by joesixpack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbillievable Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Not everyone can be a coder. This shows an astounding lack of imagination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 This shows an astounding lack of imagination. Obviously you've never spoken to someone who's worked in manual labor for twenty plus years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snafu Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 To expect a 50 year old former trucker to learn to code is a bit of a stretch. And the larger issue is: what happens when EVERYONE is automated out of work? It will happen eventually. Honestly I think this is what it'll come down to: make work. Two movie plots come to mind: Soylent Green and Wall-E. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbillievable Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Think about how maintenance works right now. Usually one, or a small group, for tens or hundreds of deployed machines. Coders? Coders make the base, that can be installed thousands wide. An efficient robot could replace multiple humans, and multiple robots would only be supported by a couple humans. So yeah, "everyone" could learn how to do the work, yet the jobs wouldn't be there. What did all the bank tellers do when they put in ATM's? Even if the Japanese finally succeed in creating a sex robot, the oldest profession will still exist. People willing to work will always find their place, but thanks to innovation, you can have 1 person producing 10 things instead of 10 producing 1. Obviously you've never spoken to someone who's worked in manual labor for twenty plus years. You must think people are just trained chimps. What's preventing a laborer from answering phones? It takes less muscles. Two movie plots come to mind: Soylent Green and Wall-E. Even in Wall-E, there was a captain who ran the ship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 (edited) What did all the bank tellers do when they put in ATM's? Even if the Japanese finally succeed in creating a sex robot, the oldest profession will still exist. People willing to work will always find their place, but thanks to innovation, you can have 1 person producing 10 things instead of 10 producing 1. You must think people are just trained chimps. What's preventing a laborer from answering phones? It takes less muscles. Bad metaphor. Call centers are going to go the way of the dinosaur. Edited February 13, 2017 by joesixpack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azalin Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 To expect a 50 year old former trucker to learn to code is a bit of a stretch. That's not what I meant. I'm speaking in general terms about universal basic income vs people's responsibility to do the best they can to take care of themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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