JohnC Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 Sounds collaborative but he has given the distinct impression that he's trying to dictate to the coaches which players should be out on the field. The offensive linemen with Marrone, EJ Manuel, and lately the rumor to have Cardale start the last 4 games in 2016. I realize some or all of these my be untrue rumors but things like this keep popping up. Sounds like Whaley brings talent in and has a distinct opinion of where and how much that player's role should be, Hope it's not true because it's the most worrysome thing about Whaley. Makes me question how collaborative he truly is. Let the coaches set their lineups. I don't know where the rumor started that he ordered Cardale to be a starter. Obviously it is not true because he didn't play in those last four games with the exception of the last game. If he discussed such an issue with Rex that isn't a big deal. There is nothing unusual about a GM and a HC discussing the status of players. With respect to the highlighted area what is inappropriate about a GM bringing in players and having a role in mind for the player he brought in? If he brought in a player/s without having a role in mind for the particular players he would be a fool. It's part of the normal communication and interaction that happens between the front office and coaching staff for all teams. Ha ha ha ha ha, you're kidding right? We're talking about the Doug Whaley who had to get screamed at by his HC to sign a QB not named EJ when it was apparent to everyone he sucked? The Doug Whaley, who so quickly vacillated between "me and Rex are finishing each others' sentences" to whispering in the Pegula's ears to fire him. We've hired 2 NFL coaches to work with Doug, and both couldn't get along with him. One we hit 3/3 with McD, Whaley will finally be shown the door. Rex was a clown who never should have been hired. He being fired is is a demonstration that a grotesque mistake made by the owner was quickly and rightly so rectified. Marrone didn't want to be here. So he left. His talents as a HC were not at a level that losing him was an unbearable loss. The devastation came when his successor was hired. That mistake was quickly rectified.
Bleeding Bills Blue Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 Well in a couple weeks he will be the only QB on the roster. What do you expect Whaley to put out there the Buddy Nix mantra of no matter what we will be taking a QB (led to EJ BTW) That's the rumor thats floating around now. That we'll take someone in the first 2 rounds. If we don't add a FA or Romo... it's even more likely that we're drafting one at 10.
K-9 Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 Well, I guess if losing the "control of the 90" means healthy, I'm all for it. He's not losing control of anything; coaches typically have control over their projected starters, which Is what TT is projected to be. And if Whaley insisted, he would be cutting the staff out of a very important aspect of their jobs; player evaluation. Especially for a new staff up to their ears in game tape at the moment. Don't get too caught up in "the 90" or "the 53", either, especially the former, as that number is comprised of camp fodder and long shots that will get limited reps unless they impress. Getting down to the more granular roster levels is always a collaborative effort and is, again, a sign of a good working relationship.
FireChan Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 I don't know where the rumor started that he ordered Cardale to be a starter. Obviously it is not true because he didn't play in those last four games with the exception of the last game. If he discussed such an issue with Rex that isn't a big deal. There is nothing unusual about a GM and a HC discussing the status of players. With respect to the highlighted area what is inappropriate about a GM bringing in players and having a role in mind for the player he brought in? If he brought in a player/s without having a role in mind for the particular players he would be a fool. It's part of the normal communication and interaction that happens between the front office and coaching staff for all teams. Rex was a clown who never should have been hired. He being fired is is a demonstration that a grotesque mistake made by the owner was quickly and rightly so rectified. Marrone didn't want to be here. So he left. His talents as a HC were not at a level that losing him was an unbearable loss. The devastation came when his successor was hired. That mistake was quickly rectified. I wonder why, with a GM committed to shoving EJ down his throat.
K-9 Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 If tanking meant a house cleaning then maybe, but Pegula had the chance to do that this year and for whatever reason he balked.... If the team does indeed tank I want Whaley and company gone at years end, but what qualifies GM would want to come here to be tied to McDermott? Given the shear number of FAs, we may be closer to a rebuild than a reload and I wouldn't be shocked at all if they go in that direction.
Seasons1992 Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 Given the shear number of FAs, we may be closer to a rebuild than a reload and I wouldn't be shocked at all if they go in that direction. This may be the truth. Hell, at this point, do whatever gets us from old Cubs to WS-champion Cubs. I have patience after 17 years, what's another 3-5?
BADOLBILZ Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 This may be the truth. Hell, at this point, do whatever gets us from old Cubs to WS-champion Cubs. I have patience after 17 years, what's another 3-5? For several reasons tank jobs are much less lucrative in the NFL. It doesn't really pay to do it........and the best organizations in the NFL of the past 2 decades didn't tank to get to that level.
dave mcbride Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 (edited) For several reasons tank jobs are much less lucrative in the NFL. It doesn't really pay to do it........and the best organizations in the NFL of the past 2 decades didn't tank to get to that level. Interestingly, the Pats did in fact tank (albeit probably not on purpose) ... in 1992 (2-14 that season; 1-15 in 1990). That set in motion the hiring of Parcells, the drafting of Bledsoe/McGinest/Curtis Martin/Ty Law, and the eventual hiring of Belichick as assistant HC in 1996 -- a year in which they went to the SB. The relationship that Belichick established with Kraft while there is why he ended up bailing on the Jets for NE in 2000. But yes, that's a convoluted pathway to greatness. The Jets near-greatness run of 1997-mid 2000s occurred after a 1-15 season, when they hired Parcells and Belichick. Between 1997 and 2011, the Jets only had 3 losing seasons. Edited February 13, 2017 by dave mcbride
BADOLBILZ Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 Interestingly, the Pats did in fact tank (albeit probably not on purpose) ... in 1992 (2-14 that season; 1-15 in 1990). That set in motion the hiring of Parcells, the drafting of Bledsoe/McGinest/Curtis Martin/Ty Law, and the eventual hiring of Belichick as assistant HC in 1996 -- a year in which they went to the SB. The relationship that Belichick established with Kraft while there is why he ended up bailing on the Jets for NE in 2000. But yes, that's a convoluted pathway to greatness. The Jets near-greatness run of 1997-mid 2000s occurred after a 1-15 season, when they hired Parcells and Belichick. Between 1997 and 2011, the Jets only had 3 losing seasons. The energy of the initial run they made with Bledsoe in the 90's was pretty much extinguished by the time Belichick took over. I remember thinking of them and being very happy about how badly they'd blown their chance. The window was closed and the roster was a mess of duds and aging, underachieving players are tweeners. They weren't anywhere near the top half of the league in terms of talent when they won that first SB........that's what made it so surprising. Belichick re-invigorated them from mediocrity.......no tank job needed. FWIW........the next level of todays regularly successful NFL franchises........Ravens, Seahawks, Broncos........they never tanked either. The point isn't that tanking CAN'T work........but that it hasn't been working like tank proponents would like. I think the reason is simple........teams that tank tend to make bad decisions. There are teams like the Colts that have blown the benefits of having a HOF type young QB.......but there are also teams like the Rams who just can't stop tanking.
ndirish1978 Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 TT is not a SB quality QB. We can adjust the system to his strengths and I actually think Dennison's offense would do that (predicated on bootlegs and getting the QB out on the perimeter), but he doesn't have that clutch instinct in the pros to close out close games. He had it in college but at this point in his career you have to admit he has served up some garbage in the waning moments of games. My view on QBs is "do I want the ball in this guy's hands when we're down by 4 with 2 minutes to go?" I can't say I feel that way about TT. Heck, even EJ was able to pull out a couple of come from behind wins. You keep TT if the goal is merely to MAKE the playoffs. Is that good enough for anyone? Yeah I understand, we haven't even been to the playoffs in 17 years, but I'd rather take a shot at actually being able to win a playoff game rather than have our goal be to eke into the wildcard and get blown out in the playoffs. Why even bother to play if your goal is to work your way to the middle?
BuffaloHokie13 Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 Cardale Jones Verified account @Cardale7_
JohnC Posted February 14, 2017 Posted February 14, 2017 I wonder why, with a GM committed to shoving EJ down his throat. The quarter back situation was bad. No one is disputing that. Marrone made a stink about it, and rightly so. So the GM got a qb, Orton, from the garbage heap. Was EJ a bad pick and miscalculation? Absolutely! And I have said that many times over in my tiresome posts on that topic. When Rex came in TT was brought in probably on the recommendation of Rex. I would say that although he isn't the long term answer at least the new qb stabilized the position. Who on this board has been as critical of DW for not adequately addressing the qb position than I have been? It is without a doubt a failure on his part. But the story is not finished on that issue. Let's see what happens this offseason and in this draft? This is unfinished business that the GM has a personal stake in. Because if he doesn't adequately address the position his job will be in serious jeopardy. Where you and I part company is that if someone hasn't done a good job in one area that doesn't mean that every thing he does should be tainted. You and some others make it out as if he is a miserable failure. I don't see it that way. The owner brought in a fool coach who through his undisciplined and lackadaisical manner of coaching undermined a lot of the good things that Whaley had done. I have never claimed that DW is an elite GM. Because he simply is not. But I consider him a competent GM who is capable of turning the franchise in a more positive direction. Let's put things in perspective. When he first took over with Marrone as a HC this team was basically an expansion caliber team. In the second year there was progress. Then Marrone walked and with the installation of the loud HC the situation deteriorated. With the new, more mature, more vigorous, more disciplined and smarter HC taking over I feel a little more confident.
K-9 Posted February 14, 2017 Posted February 14, 2017 Point of clarification on Orton. Whaley and Co. started the process of signing him the day he was released by the Cowboys in mid July of that year. Marrone knew that, too, so it wasn't like he was being saddled with Manuel. He was pissed that it was taking so long to get the deal done and that's what precipated the argument on the sideline later on in training camp. It took six weeks, but Orton couldn't say no to $5m, after all. I wouldn't classify him as a garbage heap acquisition.
Big C Posted February 14, 2017 Posted February 14, 2017 The energy of the initial run they made with Bledsoe in the 90's was pretty much extinguished by the time Belichick took over. I remember thinking of them and being very happy about how badly they'd blown their chance. The window was closed and the roster was a mess of duds and aging, underachieving players are tweeners. They weren't anywhere near the top half of the league in terms of talent when they won that first SB........that's what made it so surprising. Belichick re-invigorated them from mediocrity.......no tank job needed. FWIW........the next level of todays regularly successful NFL franchises........Ravens, Seahawks, Broncos........they never tanked either. The point isn't that tanking CAN'T work........but that it hasn't been working like tank proponents would like. I think the reason is simple........teams that tank tend to make bad decisions. There are teams like the Colts that have blown the benefits of having a HOF type young QB.......but there are also teams like the Rams who just can't stop tanking. When we look back at the group of teams that have "tanked" for QBs, none of them have become a consistent force. Starting at 2009: Lions, Rams, Panthers, Colts, Bucs, Titans... You're looking at a combined 1 Super Bowl and 2 championship games. Too soon to tell on the Bucs and Titans maybe, but still. Gotta be more to it than just the QBs they picked. So I can agree with this assessment.
ndirish1978 Posted February 14, 2017 Posted February 14, 2017 (edited) FTR I think Cardale is a good kid and I hope he becomes a solid starter one day. That is all As far as tanking goes, you kind of need a poor team all around to get the first pick in the draft. We've stunk for years but always hovered between 6-8 wins with not-great teams. We probably win 5 games next year no matter who the QB is just based on the run game and an average defense. Edited February 14, 2017 by ndirish1978
Big C Posted February 14, 2017 Posted February 14, 2017 FTR I think Cardale is a good kid and I hope he becomes a solid starter one day. That is all I think all can agree with that.
JohnC Posted February 14, 2017 Posted February 14, 2017 Point of clarification on Orton. Whaley and Co. started the process of signing him the day he was released by the Cowboys in mid July of that year. Marrone knew that, too, so it wasn't like he was being saddled with Manuel. He was pissed that it was taking so long to get the deal done and that's what precipated the argument on the sideline later on in training camp. It took six weeks, but Orton couldn't say no to $5m, after all. I wouldn't classify him as a garbage heap acquisition. He was basically retired. But the money offered was too enticing to decline, especially if it was going to be his last big check from the game. When he was acquired he was out of shape because he didn't work out during the offseason because he thought his career was over. He worked his way into shape as the season moved on. Shortly after the season he retired.
K-9 Posted February 14, 2017 Posted February 14, 2017 He was basically retired. But the money offered was too enticing to decline, especially if it was going to be his last big check from the game. When he was acquired he was out of shape because he didn't work out during the offseason because he thought his career was over. He worked his way into shape as the season moved on. Shortly after the season he retired. The point is, Marrone knew we were putting the full court press on getting Orton signed from the moment the Cowboys released him, which was before camp opened for us so the idea that Marrone was pissed about getting EJ rammed down his throat rings hollow. Orton played the Cowboys like a fine violin in orchestrating his release and making it possible to cash in one last time. Smart man.
GaryPinC Posted February 14, 2017 Posted February 14, 2017 I don't know where the rumor started that he ordered Cardale to be a starter. Obviously it is not true because he didn't play in those last four games with the exception of the last game. If he discussed such an issue with Rex that isn't a big deal. There is nothing unusual about a GM and a HC discussing the status of players. With respect to the highlighted area what is inappropriate about a GM bringing in players and having a role in mind for the player he brought in? If he brought in a player/s without having a role in mind for the particular players he would be a fool. It's part of the normal communication and interaction that happens between the front office and coaching staff for all teams. There's nothing wrong with it and it should be normal, I agree with you. My point was that after Whaley brought these players in the coaches took a look at them in action and decided on a role different than what Whaley had in mind. And instead of trusting his coach's judgement, I think it bothered Whaley and created problems.
GaryPinC Posted February 14, 2017 Posted February 14, 2017 The energy of the initial run they made with Bledsoe in the 90's was pretty much extinguished by the time Belichick took over. I remember thinking of them and being very happy about how badly they'd blown their chance. The window was closed and the roster was a mess of duds and aging, underachieving players are tweeners. They weren't anywhere near the top half of the league in terms of talent when they won that first SB........that's what made it so surprising. Belichick re-invigorated them from mediocrity.......no tank job needed. FWIW........the next level of todays regularly successful NFL franchises........Ravens, Seahawks, Broncos........they never tanked either. The point isn't that tanking CAN'T work........but that it hasn't been working like tank proponents would like. I think the reason is simple........teams that tank tend to make bad decisions. There are teams like the Colts that have blown the benefits of having a HOF type young QB.......but there are also teams like the Rams who just can't stop tanking. Great points, thanks for the post. I think of it another way, franchises like ours preach about turning around the culture of losing then end up repeatedly tearing down their roster because it's not good enough. That's really supposed to foster winning? Yep, the losing culture starts at the top. If Whaley were smart he would realize his best bet is to keep Tyrod and keep building forward. Otherwise he's gone after this coming season unless CJ has a miracle year. Good luck with that.
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