Whaley wants Cardale to be 2017 starter

[BADOLBILZ]

 

Normally people are right and that you can't really tank in football. Most drafts don't have elite QB prospects and it's hard to predict the future.

 

However, all the stars are aligning this year to be bad. Lots of free agents gone, little cap space, and we have an out on Tyrod. 2018 looks like a special year for QB's like the 2014 draft was for WR's.

 

 

At this point there aren't any Andrew Luck or Jameis Winston types that are sure-bet franchise QB's in that 2018 class.

 

This 2017 draft is full of athletic, big armed passers..

 

Not sure that 2018 is even a lock to be THIS good.

 

Darnold had a nice partial-season run........but at one point Deshaun Watson looked to have much greater potential and he plateaud.

 

Josh Rosen was sidelined with nerve damage in his throwing shoulder this season.

 

I think there is an enormous case of counting chickens before they've hatched wrt the 2018 QB class.

Edited February 12, 2017 by #BADOL

[NewEra]

Normally people are right and that you can't really tank in football. Most drafts don't have elite QB prospects and it's hard to predict the future.

 

However, all the stars are aligning this year to be bad. Lots of free agents gone, little cap space, and we have an out on Tyrod. 2018 looks like a special year for QB's like the 2014 draft was for WR's.

 

Agreed. The year Cam came out we started 0-8 and ended up winning a few towards the end and picked out of the 3 spot. Unfortunately for us all the other QBs sucked and weren't worth taking that high. Lucks senior year we start off 3-1 and then crumple into futility and one of the worst teams in the league and grab Gilmore. Tyrod can be Fitzpatrick of that year. Good enough to keep us from drafting his replacement.

 

The stars are aligning, I agree completely. There's 2 QBs in next years draft I'm drooling over (Darnold and Rosen) and a few others that I'm eager to see how they progress (Josh Allen, Browning, Rudolph and maybe even Lamar Jackson). I'm not too high on any of the QBs in this draft but I like trubiesky the most followed by Watson and maholmes. I'd rather draft Foster, Adams, hooker, Corey Davis or mike Williams this year and grab our QB next year, where I believe I'll be a big fan of at least 2 QBs.

[1billsfan]

yeah but if the bills wanted to tank they would have to sell that to the fan base and i seriously doubt the fans are interested in waiting another non-playoff season on purpose. season tickets would plunge and the stadium would be half empty the entire second half of the season. theres no way they could have cardale start and not telegraph a tank so that seems like an impossible situation. unless of course cardale were to shock everyone and emerge as a force, but that seems far fetched right now

 

You're totally projecting your very low opinion of Cardale Jones onto the Bills decision-makers.

 

The Bills drafted Jones in the 4th round. Do you think they did that just for kicks?

 

Do you think the Broncos were tanking because they decided that a 7th round pick (#250 overall), second year player was going to be their starter?

 

Is it that much of a shock that the Bills decide that they want to see if Jones can play and decide to go with him as the starter? Trusting that their coaches can ease him into the job early on with run heavy game plans? That starting a young QB is not tanking, it's truly the nature of the NFL beast if you don't happen to go free agent vet QBs year after year? Teams that do that are losers. Teams that want to be winners eventually start young QBs to see if they have it or not.

Edited February 12, 2017 by 1billsfan

[Meathead]

well stated. but cardale was very very raw coming in and would have had to make up a serious ton of ground to be ready by now. is it possible? yeah i guess but like i said, that seems remote. i certainly hope what you say turns out to be the case though. id hate to see yet another hc fired in two years bc they gambled on their long shot prospect and lost

[NewEra]

yeah but if the bills wanted to tank they would have to sell that to the fan base and i seriously doubt the fans are interested in waiting another non-playoff season on purpose. season tickets would plunge and the stadium would be half empty the entire second half of the season. theres no way they could have cardale start and not telegraph a tank so that seems like an impossible situation. unless of course cardale were to shock everyone and emerge as a force, but that seems far fetched right now

The fan base would probably be more excited than ever if we drafted Sam Darnold or Josh Rosen. I would be at least. I'm not very excited about Tyrod Taylor leading our team to a super bowl win anytime soon. It's a thought I can't even comprehend, it's so far out of the realm of possibility imo. We need a QBs that's good. the best way to get one is through the draft. The best QBs in see that will be available to us are in next years draft. The best way to secure a shot at one is to suck for one year. I'd be all in if that's the direction they take. Sucking for one more year won't hurt any more than the last 17. Fold for Darnold is the fastest track to a super bowl ring imo. That's all I care about. I don't want to be the bengals of the last 6 years. Make the playoffs then get bounced because the QB isn't good enough. No thank you. Meanwhile we're starting a big talented 4th rd pick at qb to see if he can develop. It's a no brainer imo but won't be upset if we keep tyrod and make a run. I'll be rooting them on as much as ever, but I can envision the result. And it's not good

Edited February 12, 2017 by NewEra

[Cripple Creek]

I love fake outrage in the morning.

 

Vic just said 2 days ago it was up to mcdermott.

 

I think the title of this thread is a stretch based on what the article actually says. That said, I wouldn't doubt that he wants the QB he drafted to start if he's ready. I would rather see him play than more TT running around too.

This, I think, is something that someone in the organization floated out there to try to put some pressure on Taylor. Like you, I'm ready to move on.

[BADOLBILZ]

Agreed. The year Cam came out we started 0-8 and ended up winning a few towards the end and picked out of the 3 spot. Unfortunately for us all the other QBs sucked and weren't worth taking that high. Lucks senior year we start off 3-1 and then crumple into futility and one of the worst teams in the league and grab Gilmore. Tyrod can be Fitzpatrick of that year. Good enough to keep us from drafting his replacement.

 

The stars are aligning, I agree completely. There's 2 QBs in next years draft I'm drooling over (Darnold and Rosen) and a few others that I'm eager to see how they progress (Josh Allen, Browning, Rudolph and maybe even Lamar Jackson). I'm not too high on any of the QBs in this draft but I like trubiesky the most followed by Watson and maholmes. I'd rather draft Foster, Adams, hooker, Corey Davis or mike Williams this year and grab our QB next year, where I believe I'll be a big fan of at least 2 QBs.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, Darnold played well in a part season and won a bowl game against a less talented team...........not amazing.

 

What were people here thinking when Cardale stepped in and won the Big Ten Championship and two playoff games to lead Ohio State to a title?

 

Once in a generation type talent, right?

 

A little more exposure USUALLY leads to considerably tamped expectations.

 

To me.......I've seen all of these "super prospects" whose stock has crashed with more exposure before.....this years class has one in Deshaun Watson.

 

IMO perhaps the most gifted of the 2018 bunch is one who never gets mentioned.......Deondre Francois.

 

But none of these guys is Andrew Luck.

 

Planning to "suck" to get them is dumb.......the only very highly picked QB's to win a SB in the past 18 seasons were Peyton and Eli.

 

The best run organizations in the league have good QB's but they didn't tank to get them.

[1billsfan]

 

 

 

 

Yeah, Darnold played well in a part season and won a bowl game against a less talented team...........not amazing.

 

What were people here thinking when Cardale stepped in and won the Big Ten Championship and two playoff games to lead Ohio State to a title?

 

Once in a generation type talent, right?

 

A little more exposure USUALLY leads to considerably tamped expectations.

 

To me.......I've seen all of these "super prospects" whose stock has crashed with more exposure before.....this years class has one in Deshaun Watson.

 

IMO perhaps the most gifted of the 2018 bunch is one who never gets mentioned.......Deondre Francois.

 

But none of these guys is Andrew Luck.

 

Planning to "suck" to get them is dumb.......the only very highly picked QB's to win a SB in the past 18 seasons were Peyton and Eli.

 

The best run organizations in the league have good QB's but they didn't tank to get them.

 

Geez, can you let Cardale Jones play before you write him off? You literally wrote that as if it was a lock that Jones is totally going to suck.

 

Trever Siemian, Dak Prescott...it's really not that unheard of for young QBs drafted past the 2nd round to play decent to very well.

[Augie]

What news? Show me some credible links

It's just that time of year, I guess....

[FireChan]

 

 

 

 

Yeah, Darnold played well in a part season and won a bowl game against a less talented team...........not amazing.

 

What were people here thinking when Cardale stepped in and won the Big Ten Championship and two playoff games to lead Ohio State to a title?

 

Once in a generation type talent, right?

 

A little more exposure USUALLY leads to considerably tamped expectations.

 

To me.......I've seen all of these "super prospects" whose stock has crashed with more exposure before.....this years class has one in Deshaun Watson.

 

IMO perhaps the most gifted of the 2018 bunch is one who never gets mentioned.......Deondre Francois.

 

But none of these guys is Andrew Luck.

 

Planning to "suck" to get them is dumb.......the only very highly picked QB's to win a SB in the past 18 seasons were Peyton and Eli.

 

The best run organizations in the league have good QB's but they didn't tank to get them.

True freshman too.

 

I like him.

 

SB wins is a crazy stat to hold against anybody. Maybe we could look at who went to the SB over the last 19 yearrs.

 

Obviously, Mannings 6x, McNabb, Big Ben 3x, Grossman, Rodgers, Flacco, Cam, Matty Ice, Kerry Collins, Stever McNair.

 

That's 17 QB appearances, most drafted in the first, most of them high, to play in the SB in the last 19 years. If you throw out Brady's 7 appearances as an outlier, that's 17/31 spots. The rest are filled by Brees, Warner, Wilson, Delhomme, Dilfer, Hasselback etc. aka the fluke guys.

Edited February 12, 2017 by FireChan

[BADOLBILZ]

 

Geez, can you let Cardale Jones play before you write him off? You literally wrote that as if it was a lock that Jones is totally going to suck.

 

Trever Siemian, Dak Prescott...it's really not that unheard of for young QBs drafted past the 2nd round to play decent to very well.

 

 

That is precisely my point!

 

The Sabres-esque suck for "fill in the QB" concept has not really paid dividends around the NFL.

 

I'm not writing Cardale off........but the same folks mesmerized by Darnold and the other prospects of 2018 had to be at full mast over Cardale Jones when he wins a conference and a national championship in his first three starts.

 

And then reality set in the following season.......flaws were exposed.......and he gets BENCHED.....and then he's the 149th pick in the draft and a lottery ticket on the Bills bench.

[bobobonators]

So we should just continue to go 7-9 and hope that 10-15 teams bypass the top prospects in the draft or that we accomplish the "exception" and land a great QB in rd 2-7? All the while we pay our QB that's not good enough 20 mill a year and allow our other good players to walk. Sounds like a plan. Not a very good one imo.

I dont understand whats so very difficult to understand about this: its a business. No business wants to go full on tank mode unless they absolutely have to. Prior to last season id say easily half of the fanbase thought we had a good chance of going about 10-6 and making the wildcard. Probably 90% of the fanbase thought we would finish somewhere between 7-9 and 10-6. Unfortunately due to injuries and bad coaching it was a worse case scenario. Even under those dire circumstances we still were in the playoff hunt late in December.

 

Keeping Tyrod and building for the future are not two mutually exclusive occurrences. Forget guaranteed money. 20th in salary cap at the QB position is not preventing us from signing other players.

[NewEra]

Yeah, Darnold played well in a part season and won a bowl game against a less talented team...........not amazing.

 

What were people here thinking when Cardale stepped in and won the Big Ten Championship and two playoff games to lead Ohio State to a title?

 

Once in a generation type talent, right?

 

A little more exposure USUALLY leads to considerably tamped expectations.

 

To me.......I've seen all of these "super prospects" whose stock has crashed with more exposure before.....this years class has one in Deshaun Watson.

 

IMO perhaps the most gifted of the 2018 bunch is one who never gets mentioned.......Deondre Francois.

 

But none of these guys is Andrew Luck.

 

Planning to "suck" to get them is dumb.......the only very highly picked QB's to win a SB in the past 18 seasons were Peyton and Eli.

 

The best run organizations in the league have good QB's but they didn't tank to get them.

yeah I hear ya.

When cardale did that people were saying he might be a late 1st round pick because he's not nearly as polished as a guy like Darnold. I wasn't ever really that high on Watson. I know everyone had him pegged as the 1st pick, I didn't. I view Darnold and Rosen in a class above Watson entering their draft eligible year. Some may disagree but that's how I see it. Neither has to be Luck, they just have to be really good QBs. And we need a really good QB

[Coach Tuesday]

This would be HILARIOUS.

[NewEra]

That is precisely my point!

 

The Sabres-esque suck for "fill in the QB" concept has not really paid dividends around the NFL.

 

I'm not writing Cardale off........but the same folks mesmerized by Darnold and the other prospects of 2018 had to be at full mast over Cardale Jones when he wins a conference and a national championship in his first three starts.

 

And then reality set in the following season.......flaws were exposed.......and he gets BENCHED.....and then he's the 149th pick in the draft and a lottery ticket on the Bills bench.

So if we like Darnold or Rosen then we had to have loved cardale jones after he won a title? What are you talking about? You're just making stuff up now. Cardale and Darnold/Rosen are completely different prospects. Your insinuations are outlandish sir

[1billsfan]

 

 

That is precisely my point!

 

The Sabres-esque suck for "fill in the QB" concept has not really paid dividends around the NFL.

 

I'm not writing Cardale off........but the same folks mesmerized by Darnold and the other prospects of 2018 had to be at full mast over Cardale Jones when he wins a conference and a national championship in his first three starts.

 

And then reality set in the following season.......flaws were exposed.......and he gets BENCHED.....and then he's the 149th pick in the draft and a lottery ticket on the Bills bench.

 

I think the argument boils down to three potential paths...

 

1. Start Cardale Jones

2. Draft a QB at #10 and start him

3. Pick up Taylor's option

 

I think Taylor's not in the Bills plans because this team needs the cap space to build the team around the future young franchise QB.

 

So that leaves option #1 and #2. With option #1 you get a very long look at Jones and there are two forks off that option. If he plays great, the search is over! If he doesn't play well, you will probably get the opportunity to pick a QB very high in the 2018 draft, in a draft where the QB prospects appear to be much better than this year's class. With option #2 you are stuck playing the 1st round QB pick from this year's poor quality QB draft. There will probably be no real look at Jones ever.

Edited February 12, 2017 by 1billsfan

[BADOLBILZ]

True freshman too.

 

I like him.

 

SB wins is a crazy stat to hold against anybody. Maybe we could look at who went to the SB?

 

Obviously, Mannings 6x, McNabb, Big Ben 3x, Grossman, Rodgers, Flacco, Cam, Matty Ice

 

That's 15 QB's drafted in the first, most of them high, to play in the SB in the last 18 years. If you throw out Brady's 7 appearances as an outlier, that's 15/25 spots. The rest are filled by Brees, Warner, Wilson, Delhomme, Dilfer, Hasselback etc. aka the fluke guys.

 

 

You are wrong again, sir.......Francois was not a true freshman in 2016......he redshirted in 2015 so he is in fact, eligible for the 2018 draft.

 

As any astute college football fan would know he was in that same 2014 "elite 11" HS class as Darnold and Rosen.

 

The debate isn't whether the Bills should draft a QB in round 1...........I always would.

 

But TANKING to get one........as many Bills fans are pleading for........... has not produced SB wins.

 

MOST LIKELY.......because it usually takes a pretty bad organization to be that bad.....starting with a bare cupboard is not good....... and the kind of decision making that left the cupboard that bad in the first place often manifests in subsequent decisions that limit team success in the future.

 

See what Ryan Grigson has done to Andrew Luck, for instance.

 

And btw, Dilfer was a higher first round pick than Roders, Flacco and Big Ben.

[BADOLBILZ]

So if we like Darnold or Rosen then we had to have loved cardale jones after he won a title? What are you talking about? You're just making stuff up now. Cardale and Darnold/Rosen are completely different prospects. Your insinuations are outlandish sir

 

First of all......Rosen was a big disappointment this year.

 

Career sub 60% passer.....career production of just 33 TD's to 16 ints.........periodically boneheaded decision maker.......zero improvement shown from freshman to sophomore year.......not a huge arm to begin with and nerve damaged shoulder ended his season 6 games in.

 

Honest question........do you watch college football?

[FireChan]

 

 

You are wrong again, sir.......Francois was not a true freshman in 2016......he redshirted in 2015 so he is in fact, eligible for the 2018 draft.

 

As any astute college football fan would know he was in that same 2014 "elite 11" HS class as Darnold and Rosen.

 

The debate isn't whether the Bills should draft a QB in round 1...........I always would.

 

But TANKING to get one........as many Bills fans are pleading for........... has not produced SB wins.

 

MOST LIKELY.......because it usually takes a pretty bad organization to be that bad.....starting with a bare cupboard is not good....... and the kind of decision making that left the cupboard that bad in the first place often manifests in subsequent decisions that limit team success in the future.

 

See what Ryan Grigson has done to Andrew Luck, for instance.

 

And btw, Dilfer was a higher first round pick than Roders, Flacco and Big Ben.

So let's edit the numbers,

 

18/31 QB's to play in the SB not named Brady in the last 19 years have been first round picks. Most of them high. Ben, Dilfer and the Mannings all went in the first 11 picks and account for 7 total victories over that time. More wins than any other group of picks, with Brady excluded.

 

Luck will win a Super Bowl before the Bills do, so I'm not sure what's so funny?

Edited February 12, 2017 by FireChan

[BADOLBILZ]

So let's edit the numbers,

 

18/31 QB's to play in the SB not named Brady in the last 19 years have been first round picks. Most of them high.

 

Luck will win a Super Bowl before the Bills do, so I'm not sure what's so funny?

 

Wrong again.

 

NOT MOST OF THEM HIGH FIRST ROUNDERS.

 

Big Ben was selected by the Steelers with the 11th pick in round 1......not coming off some tank-job.

 

Rodgers and Flacco were picked 18th and 24th in round 1 respectively.

 

Of your "38" SB QB's in the past 19 years....... only 11 of those appearances were by top 5 picks in a draft........and all but the Mannings.......the only top 5 selected QB's to WIN a SB in that span....... have only been to one SB.

 

Furthermore.......technically only 3 times in the last 19 seasons has a #1 overall pick won a SB for the team that drafted him. Manning had been cut and signed with Denver.

 

But we are talking about the concept of TANKING to get a top overall or close-to-it pick here, not whether it makes sense to draft a QB in round 1.

Edited February 12, 2017 by #BADOL