The only Mahomes thread you need

[Bangarang]

 

Sean Payton, Bruce Arians, etc

 

Not the Bills

Can you elaborate at all?

[jeffismagic]

Can you elaborate at all?

 

I believe that the NFL is a QB driven league and that there are a limited amount of QB gurus. Bruce Arians and Sean Payton are considered top offensive minds that also understand the QB position.

 

This is why I wanted the Bills to hire Jim Bob Cooter or Kyle Shanahan. They are not only top offensive minds they also understand QB play on a level far and above their peers. What Cooter did with Stafford has been amazing. Shanahan did the QB research for the Browns in 2014 and told them to draft Derek Carr or Jimmy G.

 

Jim Bob Cooter is an offensive version of Mike Tomlin. He will be a top head coach candidate soon. If Bills had Cooter as our head coach he would be able to draft and develop a franchise QB for us. Peyton Manning wanted Cooter as his OC in Denver over Adam Gase.

Edited April 25, 2017 by jeffismagic

[Bangarang]

 

I believe that the NFL is a QB driven league and that there are a limited amount of QB gurus. Bruce Arians and Sean Payton are considered top offensive minds that also understand the QB position.

 

This is why I wanted the Bills to hire Jim Bob Cooter or Kyle Shanahan. They are not only top offensive minds they also understand QB play on a level far and above their peers. What Cooter did with Stafford has been amazing. Shanahan did the QB research for the Browns in 2014 and told them to draft Derek Carr or Jimmy G.

 

Jim Bob Cooter is an offensive version of Mike Tomlin. He will be a top head coach candidate soon. If Bills had Cooter as our head coach he would be able to draft and develop a franchise QB for us. Peyton Manning wanted Cooter as his OC in Denver over Adam Gase.

I guess I just don't get what you mean here. I'm certain that all coaches understand the QB position, it's just that there aren't many good QBs with which to work with. It's easy to point at coaches that have good QBs and say that those guys truly get it but what does "it" actually mean?

 

Maybe you mean a coach that gets the most out of his guy? Which would make sense given your Cooter and Shannahan examples.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

 

I believe that the NFL is a QB driven league and that there are a limited amount of QB gurus. Bruce Arians and Sean Payton are considered top offensive minds that also understand the QB position.

 

This is why I wanted the Bills to hire Jim Bob Cooter or Kyle Shanahan. They are not only top offensive minds they also understand QB play on a level far and above their peers. What Cooter did with Stafford has been amazing. Shanahan did the QB research for the Browns in 2014 and told them to draft Derek Carr or Jimmy G.

 

Jim Bob Cooter is an offensive version of Mike Tomlin. He will be a top head coach candidate soon. If Bills had Cooter as our head coach he would be able to draft and develop a franchise QB for us. Peyton Manning wanted Cooter as his OC in Denver over Adam Gase.

I would've been happy with either. I don't think shanahan wanted to come here. Cooter is 32 years old, and probably still getting his feet wet coaching in the NFL.

[jeffismagic]

I guess I just don't get what you mean here. I'm certain that all coaches understand the QB position, it's just that there aren't many good QBs with which to work with. It's easy to point at coaches that have good QBs and say that those guys truly get it but what does "it" actually mean?

 

Maybe you mean a coach that gets the most out of his guy? Which would make sense given your Cooter and Shannahan examples.

 

This is where I strongly disagree. There are guys like Cooter who can absolutely mold a top prospect. Bills fans haven't experienced a QB guru because QB position, drafting, coaching, and development are not considered important by the dinosaur coaches we hire.

I would've been happy with either. I don't think shanahan wanted to come here. Cooter is 32 years old, and probably still getting his feet wet coaching in the NFL.

 

Shanahan would have come here. Word was that the Bills had him in during Rex hire and they didn't like his personality. Genius isn't always friendly. They hired Rex the Clown instead.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

 

This is where I strongly disagree. There are guys like Cooter who can absolutely mold a top prospect. Bills fans haven't experienced a QB guru because QB position, drafting, coaching, and development are not considered important by the dinosaur coaches we hire.

Lot of praise for working with a guy who was a pro-bowler before cooter joined the organization. And who has coached QBs/called plays for like 3 total years.

[jeffismagic]

Lot of praise for working with a guy who was a pro-bowler before cooter joined the organization. And who has coached QBs/called plays for like 3 total years.

 

Yes, the word isn't out on him that much yet. It will.

 

Bears tried to promote Cooter from QB coach to their offensive coordinator and Lions said no. Look up Lions win loss record since Cooter took over the offense.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

 

Yes, the word isn't out on him that much yet. It will.

 

Bears tried to promote Cooter from QB coach to their offensive coordinator and Lions said no. Look up Lions win loss record since Cooter took over the offense.

 

Yeah - and peyton liked him. he's also only 32 - people give pause to giving a guy that young and inexperienced a HC job. Jim Mora JR and McDaniels both flamed out pretty badly so i think that's part of it.

 

If he's a good coach he'll get a chance. Look how long it took Mcdermott.

[jeffismagic]

 

Yeah - and peyton liked him. he's also only 32 - people give pause to giving a guy that young and inexperienced a HC job. Jim Mora JR and McDaniels both flamed out pretty badly so i think that's part of it.

 

If he's a good coach he'll get a chance. Look how long it took Mcdermott.

 

I have been told that Cooter commands a room. He has it.

[BillsFan17]

Take him at #10. Qb class is much better than the consensus of media pundits and they will all go sooner than folks think.

There are certain media members who have admitted that team's like these QBs better than the media. Humbling take for some of those guys to admit, but fact is, smokescreens aside there is going to be at least three QBS taken in the first.

 

I mocked four. None to the Bills, mainly because I just have a feeling in my gut.

[jeffismagic]

There are certain media members who have admitted that team's like these QBs better than the media. Humbling take for some of those guys to admit, but fact is, smokescreens aside there is going to be at least three QBS taken in the first.

 

I mocked four. None to the Bills, mainly because I just have a feeling in my gut.

 

And this is what many of us have been saying for a while. The talking heads are treating this QB class like 2013 when it is more likely a 2014 scenario.

[KD in CA]

Do the same thing with a golf club and golf ball. See how straight you hit it.

 

Report back.

I'm usually in the fairway.

 

Of the next hole over.

[HappyDays]

 

Same reasons Derek Carr was not given respect.

 

 

Gimmicky spread offense, questionable mechanics, level of competition. Then you add in Texas Tech which has its own stigma....

 

 

Carr was not a comparable prospect to Mahomes.

 

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2014/profiles/derek-carr?id=2543499

 

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/profiles/patrick-mahomes?id=2558125

 

Carr was known for his excellent mechanics, Mahomes is okowm for pure arm strength and willingness to throw. The only similarity is they both played for small schools. Carr was miles ahead of Mahomes as an NFL prospect but had "less than ideal height and small hands." In a world of smart NFL executives Mahomes would never be drafted earlier than Carr. But this is the real world NFL so the strong QB with poor mechanics will probably end up drafted earlier.

[jeffismagic]

Carr was not a comparable prospect to Mahomes.

 

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2014/profiles/derek-carr?id=2543499

 

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/profiles/patrick-mahomes?id=2558125

 

Carr was known for his excellent mechanics, Mahomes is okowm for pure arm strength and willingness to throw. The only similarity is they both played for small schools. Carr was miles ahead of Mahomes as an NFL prospect but had "less than ideal height and small hands." In a world of smart NFL executives Mahomes would never be drafted earlier than Carr. But this is the real world NFL so the strong QB with poor mechanics will probably end up drafted earlier.

 

Absolutely wrong.

 

Mechanics

And here's where we start getting into some of the negatives to Carr's game. His mechanics, particularly in his lower body, are inconsistent at best. He often throws off of his back foot and doesn't transfer his weight properly when throwing the ball. He also lets his throwing mechanics be affected by pressure in the pocket, whether it's rushing his throw and not paying attention to his arm slot or not taking the time to focus on proper lower body mechanics. Carr's biggest problems tend to come with pass rushers in his face, and that leads us to the other issue with Carr ...

Pocket awareness

It's tough to deny that Carr struggles when faced with pressure in the pocket. Granted, the problem was much worse in 2012 when Carr was a junior. As a junior, Carr was dealing with a hernia injury but played through it. He was tentative with pressure in the pocket and rushed his throws as a result. At times he even appeared rattled with bodies around him, and justifiably so.

Carr made strides in this area as a senior but still has a ways to go. Learning to anticipate pressure would go a long way toward solving Carr's problem. He doesn't have a natural feel for the rush and struggles to maneuver throughout the pocket when things get hectic. That's not always the easiest thing to learn at the next level, but Carr has the athleticism and natural feel for the game to pull it off. His internal clock may have been a bit screwed up at Fresno State because he was either throwing deep passes or screens. That isn't how he will be operating in the NFL.

Most importantly, Carr needs to learn to make sure his mechanics are not completely ruined by pressure in the pocket. His footwork, and consequently his accuracy, were too often adversely affected by teams bringing the blitz. Look no further than the USC game at the end of his senior season to see the effects pressure had on his game.

All of that being said, Carr is a tough player in the pocket. He's willing to take a hit and has enough athleticism to extend plays and keep his eyes downfield. He just needs to develop a more natural feel for pressure.

Pro Comparison: Matthew Stafford, Detroit Lions

Like Matthew Stafford, Derek Carr has a cannon for an arm

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl-mock-draft/2014/4/14/5614326/derek-carr-2014-nfl-draft-scouting-report

Player comparison for Carr were Cutler and Stafford. Player comparisons for Mahomes are Cutler and Stafford

After a player makes it all this draft nonsense goes away and people forget the stuff that was said at the time...

Edited April 25, 2017 by jeffismagic

[BADOLBILZ]

 

Absolutely wrong.

 

Mechanics

And here's where we start getting into some of the negatives to Carr's game. His mechanics, particularly in his lower body, are inconsistent at best. He often throws off of his back foot and doesn't transfer his weight properly when throwing the ball. He also lets his throwing mechanics be affected by pressure in the pocket, whether it's rushing his throw and not paying attention to his arm slot or not taking the time to focus on proper lower body mechanics. Carr's biggest problems tend to come with pass rushers in his face, and that leads us to the other issue with Carr ...

Pocket awareness

It's tough to deny that Carr struggles when faced with pressure in the pocket. Granted, the problem was much worse in 2012 when Carr was a junior. As a junior, Carr was dealing with a hernia injury but played through it. He was tentative with pressure in the pocket and rushed his throws as a result. At times he even appeared rattled with bodies around him, and justifiably so.

Carr made strides in this area as a senior but still has a ways to go. Learning to anticipate pressure would go a long way toward solving Carr's problem. He doesn't have a natural feel for the rush and struggles to maneuver throughout the pocket when things get hectic. That's not always the easiest thing to learn at the next level, but Carr has the athleticism and natural feel for the game to pull it off. His internal clock may have been a bit screwed up at Fresno State because he was either throwing deep passes or screens. That isn't how he will be operating in the NFL.

Most importantly, Carr needs to learn to make sure his mechanics are not completely ruined by pressure in the pocket. His footwork, and consequently his accuracy, were too often adversely affected by teams bringing the blitz. Look no further than the USC game at the end of his senior season to see the effects pressure had on his game.

All of that being said, Carr is a tough player in the pocket. He's willing to take a hit and has enough athleticism to extend plays and keep his eyes downfield. He just needs to develop a more natural feel for pressure.

Pro Comparison: Matthew Stafford, Detroit Lions

Like Matthew Stafford, Derek Carr has a cannon for an arm

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl-mock-draft/2014/4/14/5614326/derek-carr-2014-nfl-draft-scouting-report

Player comparison for Carr were Cutler and Stafford. Player comparisons for Mahomes are Cutler and Stafford

After a player makes it all this draft nonsense goes away and people forget the stuff that was said at the time...

 

 

You are correct.......HappyDays is wrong.

 

And Carr did look awful at times at Fresno State.........like the bowl game his final season versus USC.

 

Awful.

 

His postseason really helped him a lot..........had the draft been the week after the bowls were over he'd probably have been a 4th rounder or so.

[GunnerBill]

 

And this is what many of us have been saying for a while. The talking heads are treating this QB class like 2013 when it is more likely a 2014 scenario.

Yep. I was almost a lone voice on that topic before the BBMB died and the influx happened. I never felt like this was a 2013 type class. I thought all that talk was ludicrous.

 

Thing is even pretty much all the talking heads have Quarterbacks in their top 25 on their big boards. That was absolutely not the case in 2013.

 

The reason this narrative existed, in my humble opinion, is that this is the least consensus opinion on a QB class I remember. So because people can't agree that it is Trubisky or it is Watson or it is Mahomes the word got out that they are all bad.... what if the opposite is true? What if there are actually good reasons why each of these guys could be a Franchise Quarterback?

 

Trubisky is not gonna fall to the Bills at #10, no way. I think Cleveland picking 1 and 2 is in no way impossible. I think they are desperate not to give anyone else a shot at him. My personal view is Watson won't either I think he goes to the Bears at #3 and have all draft season but if they pass the Jags appear to be in play at #4 and the Jets are in play at 6. Mahomes I think will be there at #10.... but if the Bills think he is the guy they better take him at #10 - I am not sure how much further he falls with Houston and Arizona both interested and potentially desperate if the other 2 are gone in the first 6 picks.

[jeffismagic]

Yep. I was almost a lone voice on that topic before the BBMB died and the influx happened. I never felt like this was a 2013 type class. I thought all that talk was ludicrous.

 

Thing is even pretty much all the talking heads have Quarterbacks in their top 25 on their big boards. That was absolutely not the case in 2013.

 

The reason this narrative existed, in my humble opinion, is that this is the least consensus opinion on a QB class I remember. So because people can't agree that it is Trubisky or it is Watson or it is Mahomes the word got out that they are all bad.... what if the opposite is true? What if there are actually good reasons why each of these guys could be a Franchise Quarterback?

 

Trubisky is not gonna fall to the Bills at #10, no way. I think Cleveland picking 1 and 2 is in no way impossible. I think they are desperate not to give anyone else a shot at him. My personal view is Watson won't either I think he goes to the Bears at #3 and have all draft season but if they pass the Jags appear to be in play at #4 and the Jets are in play at 6. Mahomes I think will be there at #10.... but if the Bills think he is the guy they better take him at #10 - I am not sure how much further he falls with Houston and Arizona both interested and potentially desperate if the other 2 are gone in the first 6 picks.

 

That's why we are glad have you and bandit and others on here. Cuts through the ESPN noise where people are moving up the board! No, media are starting to realize they were wrong and are backtracking.

[mead107]

Take himmat 10

[BADOLBILZ]

Yep. I was almost a lone voice on that topic before the BBMB died and the influx happened. I never felt like this was a 2013 type class. I thought all that talk was ludicrous.

 

Thing is even pretty much all the talking heads have Quarterbacks in their top 25 on their big boards. That was absolutely not the case in 2013.

 

The reason this narrative existed, in my humble opinion, is that this is the least consensus opinion on a QB class I remember. So because people can't agree that it is Trubisky or it is Watson or it is Mahomes the word got out that they are all bad.... what if the opposite is true? What if there are actually good reasons why each of these guys could be a Franchise Quarterback?

 

Trubisky is not gonna fall to the Bills at #10, no way. I think Cleveland picking 1 and 2 is in no way impossible. I think they are desperate not to give anyone else a shot at him. My personal view is Watson won't either I think he goes to the Bears at #3 and have all draft season but if they pass the Jags appear to be in play at #4 and the Jets are in play at 6. Mahomes I think will be there at #10.... but if the Bills think he is the guy they better take him at #10 - I am not sure how much further he falls with Houston and Arizona both interested and potentially desperate if the other 2 are gone in the first 6 picks.

 

 

 

Yeah if they like Mahomes and he's there they should just take him.

 

The upside alone is 15-18 years of a franchise QB versus........5-10 years of a quality anything else.

 

If they miss........oh well.......they didn't miss the playoffs the last two years because all they had to show for 16-17 consecutive playoff misses were 3 first round starters.......they were coached down.

[BillsCuse]

I've been wavering on what I want to do at ten for awhile. Mahomes is who I want, I love the high upside. If he flames out at least we took a shot, taking position players has gotten us nowhere. I don't want to "just make the playoffs" either. I want to be a contender year after year. If they like him, don't screw around, take him at 10.