DaBillsFanSince1973 Posted April 6, 2017 Posted April 6, 2017 (edited) You just compared Mahomes to Tebow? That's cool. That was what people on this board called Dak last year. Another Tebow. Is that the context you want to put it in? no, NOT comparing him to tebow, comparing draft position or even success. if you put it in the context it was meant to be, it would go something like this, "NOT all QBs, regardless of position they were drafted, in this case your favorite player, WILL have success at the next level" I think I read somewhere you compared your favorite player to a HOF QB, I believe it was Farve...I could be wrong you did but if you did, that is funny... Edited April 6, 2017 by DaBillsFanSince1973
thebandit27 Posted April 6, 2017 Posted April 6, 2017 On this board? Or on BBMB? I'll cop to that--I compared Dak to Tebow in that he was a big kid who was a better-than-average athlete for his size, strong arm, but didn't strike me as a great passer. I also didn't love his mechanics. Hey, I get 'em wrong like everyone else
jeffismagic Posted April 6, 2017 Posted April 6, 2017 Is that the context you want to put it in? no, NOT comparing him to tebow, comparing draft position or even success. if you put it in the context it was meant to be would be, it would go something like this, "NOT all QBs, regardless of position they were drafted, in this case your favorite player, WILL have success at the next level" I think I read somewhere you compared your favorite player to a HOF QB, I believe it was Farve...I could be wrong you did but if you did, that is funny... What's funny is you are just making stuff up now.
Bill_with_it Posted April 6, 2017 Posted April 6, 2017 Yes, if you want your QB's to follow the rules then you should read Greg Cossell. Here is Greg showing the way by his QB methods...Here is Greg in 2014. I would say its probably an average quarterback class, he said during our phone conversation. Theres certainly not a slam-dunk guy in this draft by any stretch of the imagination. But some, based on their different circumstances, may have an opportunity to develop. But theres no guy that you say regardless of the situation will be a high-quality starting NFL quarterback. Of the top three quarterbacks, at least in the medias eyes, Cosell liked the potential of Blake Bortles, the Central Florida quarterback who is a popular Vikings choice in mock drafts, most. Bortles, to me, would be the best down-the-road prospect because of size, which is a definite attribute, he said. I think hes got a good arm, not a gun. I think hes got movement ability. I think hes got the kind of traits that you ultimately look for in an NFL starting quarterback. Cosell then dismissed Derek Carr as a long time project because he played in a spread offense. He then gave Mahomes the Derek Carr treatment this year. You just compared Mahomes to Tebow? That's cool. That was what people on this board called Dak last year. Another Tebow. No you are putting words in my mouth. What I want is a qb that operates in the confines of the established offense, doesnt take ridiculous chances with throws hoping that a) the wr or pass catcher bails him out b) hoping that the cornerbacks at UTEP, Sam Houston state will be starting cbs, and doesnt share that symblance that his arm strength can get him out of so many situations. His mechanics are quite possibly the worse I have seen on any potential first rounder in quite a few years, and its not just one or two items, its a ton. Hes been able to successfully negate developing his mechanics based soley on arm strength destroying the likes of very lesser opponents. He will jot be able to do that in the NFL. If he doesnt devote himself to cleaning up every aspect of football related movemenet from the time he says hike, till the time that cannon releases he will be unsuccessful in the NFL. Arm strength alone doesnt cut it.
DaBillsFanSince1973 Posted April 6, 2017 Posted April 6, 2017 What's funny is you are just making stuff up now. About the Farve comparison? I did say I could be wrong, my bad. Anyhow, will you follow your favorite player where ever he lands? good chance, real good chance the bills wont take him. who will be your favorite next year?
jeffismagic Posted April 6, 2017 Posted April 6, 2017 No you are putting words in my mouth. What I want is a qb that operates in the confines of the established offense, doesnt take ridiculous chances with throws hoping that a) the wr or pass catcher bails him out b) hoping that the cornerbacks at UTEP, Sam Houston state will be starting cbs, and doesnt share that symblance that his arm strength can get him out of so many situations. His mechanics are quite possibly the worse I have seen on any potential first rounder in quite a few years, and its not just one or two items, its a ton. Hes been able to successfully negate developing his mechanics based soley on arm strength destroying the likes of very lesser opponents. He will jot be able to do that in the NFL. If he doesnt devote himself to cleaning up every aspect of football related movemenet from the time he says hike, till the time that cannon releases he will be unsuccessful in the NFL. Arm strength alone doesnt cut it. Yes, the mechanics crowd. I just posted their #1 guy from that crowd. Enjoy. About the Farve comparison? I did say I could be wrong, my bad. Anyhow, will you follow your favorite player where ever he lands? good chance, real good chance the bills wont take him. who will be your favorite next year? If the Bills really mess up this draft and just do a Levy-Jauron I might just lose interest for a few years.
Bill_with_it Posted April 6, 2017 Posted April 6, 2017 (edited) Yes, the mechanics crowd. I just posted their #1 guy from that crowd. Enjoy. You could post 100 number 1 guys. I am not a scout, but if you dont take a breath for a second a reflect on the history of the league for a second and let history give you a little lessen in humility with regard to Mahomes, you might end up being salty when the guy struggles and is relegated to lifelong clipboard duties ( if he doesnt find a way to fix about a half dozen flaws from when he says hike to when he rips the ball) in the league. Edited April 6, 2017 by Bill_with_it
DaBillsFanSince1973 Posted April 6, 2017 Posted April 6, 2017 If the Bills really mess up this draft and just do a Levy-Jauron I might just lose interest for a few years. end of discussion then.
jeffismagic Posted April 6, 2017 Posted April 6, 2017 You could post 100 number 1 guys. I am not a scout, but if you dont take a breath for a second a reflect on the history of the league for a second and let history give you a little lessen in humility with regard to Mahomes, you might end up being salty when the guy struggles and is relegated to lifelong clipboard duties ( if he doesnt find a way to fix about a half dozen flaws from when he says hike to when he rips the ball) in the league. Great advice. Maybe you should try it as well?!
jeffismagic Posted April 6, 2017 Posted April 6, 2017 end of discussion then. Sports are entertainment. Fans lose interest for various reasons. I already expect a 5-6 win team next year. What I want is some hope. If no hope is around the corner why should I be interested? And if you still believe in Tyrod, great. Not everyone feels the same.
4BillsintheBurgh Posted April 6, 2017 Posted April 6, 2017 The Mods need to do something about it in my opinion. He is entitled to his view but just block pasting the same content time and time again is beyond irritating. You can hit the report button next to the multiquote/quote button and put a word in there to help the mods understand your concerns. It goes directly to them and allows them to focus in on the issue without having to sift through a lot of posts. The same thing can be said for anyone crusading etc that is against the terms of service.
billspro Posted April 6, 2017 Posted April 6, 2017 No, I'd rather take 3 or 4 random plays out of context and declare him a future draft bust. Wait, sounds like a Fahey "evaluation". I never declared him a draft bust, he has a chance to be special. I just don't know if he is worth pick 10, would be happy taking a chance on him in round 2.
HappyDays Posted April 6, 2017 Posted April 6, 2017 FireChan I like your method of posting a response, I am stealing it. Again, what holes have we filled with picks 6-32? Shaq Lawson at DE? I already answered this in my original post. The Bills haven't filled holes with those picks but the solution is to draft better, not to throw away picks on a player that is very unlikely to succeed. This is two fallacies meshed together. There is zero reason to suspect that the Bills highest ranked QB when they were picking was the QB taken next. I cannot stress that enough. For all we know, Teddy and Carr were their #1 and #2 QB's in 2014. We just don't know. To say that they would make the same pick that another NFL team did is a speculative argument at best. This is true but for the purpose of analysis I just have to go off the final draft board. You've argued well enough that Carr should be included so I'll grant you that. He is close enough to the range and it is definitely conceivable that he could have been a late 1st rounder. I dont know why Carr fell to the 2nd. Just looking at his draft profile... http://www.nfl.com/draft/2014/profiles/derek-carr?id=2543499 ...it looks like his main weaknesses were playing in a spread offense and playing for a smaller school. I mean it's crazy to me reading this profile that he fell as far as he did. He didn't have mechanical issues. He had good pocket presence. The last line of the profile says "Will be a starter sooner rather than later and the degree to which hes able to make those around him better will determine his ceiling." Yeah your guess is as good as mine why he fell so far but he is still the exception, not the rule. The first success since 2008. And then the second part. You say you the Bills should recognize they are not smarter than other teams, and that they couldn't have known what QB's were gonna be good, but they should know what other first round prospects are gonna be good? If this team had drafted Ngata and Orakpo instead of Whitner and Maybin, we still would not have had a franchise QB. Ergo, we still would not have found consistent success. It's not definitively true that if we had taken Ngata and Orakpo we wouldn't have found success. As I said originally every time you miss on a 1st round pick you create a hole on your roster. Filling those holes takes more picks that could have been used on prospects like Wilson and Prescott. You can never know for sure if your prospect will work out but there is at least a decent shot, much more so than if you take a QB there. Again, this is the exact thing you argued against in regards to QB's. I could easily say, "just take better QB's." Same argument. It's not the same argument because there weren't better QBs to take. There are better players at OTHER positions that we could have taken but not QB. The exception as I agreed would be Derek Carr, we could have taken him in 2014 and been in great shape. Responding to the rest of your post would leave me mostly repeating myself.
GunnerBill Posted April 6, 2017 Posted April 6, 2017 (edited) I'll cop to that--I compared Dak to Tebow in that he was a big kid who was a better-than-average athlete for his size, strong arm, but didn't strike me as a great passer. I also didn't love his mechanics. Hey, I get 'em wrong like everyone else Tut, tut Bandit. So just for info Jeff it is the guy who has Mahomes as his #1 QB who compared Dak to Tebow. The guy who thinks Mahomes is a high upside project had a 2nd Round grade on Dak (lets not get on to my Blake Bortles love). Sorry Bandit haha. Edited April 6, 2017 by GunnerBill
jeffismagic Posted April 6, 2017 Posted April 6, 2017 (edited) Tut, tut Bandit. So just for info Jeff it is the guy who has Mahomes as his #1 QB who compared Dak to Tebow. The guy who thinks Mahomes is a high upside project had a 2nd Round grade on Dak (lets not get on to my Blake Bortles love). Sorry Bandit haha. True, you got me there. And I do have to give you credit Gunner for being high on Dak last year. I think you are fair on Mahomes. He might not be your favorite but you do see good things there. The only person that I am sick of is Fahey. He should stick with analytics. Edited April 6, 2017 by jeffismagic
thebandit27 Posted April 6, 2017 Posted April 6, 2017 Tut, tut Bandit. So just for info Jeff it is the guy who has Mahomes as his #1 QB who compared Dak to Tebow. The guy who thinks Mahomes is a high upside project had a 2nd Round grade on Dak (lets not get on to my Blake Bortles love). Sorry Bandit haha. Hey, I'll take my lumps when I'm wrong...no worries. As long as y'all remember who told you that Elandon Roberts, DeVondre Campbell, Robby Anderson, and Geronimo Allison deserve early day-3 grades last year
jeffismagic Posted April 7, 2017 Posted April 7, 2017 Texas Tech QB Patrick Mahomes is the Derek Carr of 2017 NFL Draft prospects Matt Kelley - RotoUnderworld Fantasy Football
FireChan Posted April 7, 2017 Posted April 7, 2017 (edited) I already answered this in my original post. The Bills haven't filled holes with those picks but the solution is to draft better, not to throw away picks on a player that is very unlikely to succeed. But the heart of this statement is how do we draft better. The basic assumption you've repeatedly stated is that no team is smarter than the rest. Sometimes teams draft great players and sometimes teams draft busts. If all teams are equal, isn't it just luck at its most basic element? This is true but for the purpose of analysis I just have to go off the final draft board. You've argued well enough that Carr should be included so I'll grant you that. He is close enough to the range and it is definitely conceivable that he could have been a late 1st rounder. I dont know why Carr fell to the 2nd. Just looking at his draft profile... http://www.nfl.com/draft/2014/profiles/derek-carr?id=2543499 ...it looks like his main weaknesses were playing in a spread offense and playing for a smaller school. I mean it's crazy to me reading this profile that he fell as far as he did. He didn't have mechanical issues. He had good pocket presence. The last line of the profile says "Will be a starter sooner rather than later and the degree to which hes able to make those around him better will determine his ceiling." Yeah your guess is as good as mine why he fell so far but he is still the exception, not the rule. The first success since 2008. Yep. That's why I've repeatedly said that Oakland got lucky that Carr was there. He could've easily been the Browns or Vikings pick. Or someone like the Bills could've traded up to #33 and nabbed him. Some folks (not you) say that they believed in Carr's talent to be a day one starter and their guy. If that was true, they would've either taken him instead of Mack or pulled an EJ trade and gambled he'd last to the middle of the first. It's not definitively true that if we had taken Ngata and Orakpo we wouldn't have found success. As I said originally every time you miss on a 1st round pick you create a hole on your roster. Filling those holes takes more picks that could have been used on prospects like Wilson and Prescott. You can never know for sure if your prospect will work out but there is at least a decent shot, much more so than if you take a QB there. I mean, the teams that drafted Ngata and Orakpo only consistently won more games than they lost when they got QB's. Yes, sometimes teams get lucky and hit on a bunch of players and make it to the postseason once or twice, but it never lasts, FA sees to that. Consistent winning seasons in the majority of a period of 5-10 years only happens with a good QB. It's not the same argument because there weren't better QBs to take. There are better players at OTHER positions that we could have taken but not QB. The exception as I agreed would be Derek Carr, we could have taken him in 2014 and been in great shape. Is this truly a fair argument? I only ask because your Flacco take was that he wouldn't have been as successful or successful at all on the Bills. If that's true for him, why isn't it true for Hopkins, OBJ, etc? There's a better chance they'd be the same players on the Bills, but no guarantee. With that Bills scheme switching every year, would Orakpo have been as effective? Would Ngata? Maybe. Not truly convinced. And the converse is true. Maybe Jake Locker sees more success in Chan's scheme with the screens and horizontal game. Who knows? Just for your info, I was one of the few wanting to take another QB in 2014. And instead we tripled down on EJ by trading our 2015 1st. And here's the thing, if Carr lasted late into the second, maybe the Bills would've taken him, but we never got that chance. That's why i think you need to target QB's early. More importantly, I think if the Bills truly wanted to find a franchise guy, they need to do what the Colts or Panthers did and tank for a season. We would've been better off with no Watkins in 2014, playing EJ all year, and ending up with the #1, 2 or 3 pick. That or acquire enough assets to make a move like the Eagles or Rams did. That doesn't have a great success rate, but with a higher pick, you always have a better chance of getting the better QB prospects. Edited April 7, 2017 by FireChan
GunnerBill Posted April 7, 2017 Posted April 7, 2017 Hey, I'll take my lumps when I'm wrong...no worries. As long as y'all remember who told you that Elandon Roberts, DeVondre Campbell, Robby Anderson, and Geronimo Allison deserve early day-3 grades last year You do a great job every year Bandit, no doubt. And I was right there with you on Anderson and Allison. The Bills picked Listenbee and those 2 went undrafted. That worked out well....
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