HappyDays Posted April 5, 2017 Posted April 5, 2017 I wholly defend the EJ pick in 2013. Was it a pick that worked out? Unquestionably not. Was it a smart pick at the time? Absolutely. If you don't have a franchise QB, and you believe that there's a guy available that can become one, then you're negligent if you don't pull the trigger on the guy. That's not to say you should pick a QB just for the sake of doing it...there's a major difference in the two statements. I fundamentally disagree with this but I'm guessing it's one of those things we'll have to agree to disagree on. I understand the mindset, but to me drafting any player in the 1st round that is off the team within 4 years is a horrible pick. Indefensible. Not an immediately fireable offense, and there's more leeway with QBs than any other position, but you just threw that pick away. Imagine if the Raiders had taken their favorite QB instead of Khalil Mack (maybe Manziel, or Blake Bortles in an alternate universe) and then passed on Derek Carr at the top of round 2. Forcing a pick isn't worth it. I say always select BPA in round 1. If you're that sure about a QB you should do everything you can to trade up. If you're not sure enough that you're willing to let another team draft them first, then you were never that sure to begin with and you might as well take a blue-chip prospect. Round 2 and onwards I have no qualms with overdrafting a QB. There's just too much value with top 10 picks for me to throw it away on a prayer. The Bills not only didn't trade up, they traded DOWN before selecting EJ. No confidence at all. I mean it's still better than staying put and drafting him but it was an utterly bizarre move that reeked of dysfunction and lack of direction. What a complete and utter non sequitur. No one has said "only QB matters." No but they've said we should use a 1st round pick on one at all costs, even though the 1st round (especially at #10) is when blue chip players are available. The Jaguars missed out on an amazing 1st round draft class when they selected Blaine Gabbert in 2011. I mean who was the last QB taken later than #1 or #2 that ended up succeeding? Lately, more success has been found in the 2nd (Carr), 3rd (Wilson) and 4th (Prescott, Cousins). I think the Bills would be much much smarter to identify a QB they like in round 2 or later and grab a blue-chip player at #10, rather than losing out because they took a project QB with major development concerns (see: Manuel, EJ).
FireChan Posted April 5, 2017 Posted April 5, 2017 I fundamentally disagree with this but I'm guessing it's one of those things we'll have to agree to disagree on. I understand the mindset, but to me drafting any player in the 1st round that is off the team within 4 years is a horrible pick. Indefensible. Not an immediately fireable offense, and there's more leeway with QBs than any other position, but you just threw that pick away. Imagine if the Raiders had taken their favorite QB instead of Khalil Mack (maybe Manziel, or Blake Bortles in an alternate universe) and then passed on Derek Carr at the top of round 2. Forcing a pick isn't worth it. I say always select BPA in round 1. If you're that sure about a QB you should do everything you can to trade up. If you're not sure enough that you're willing to let another team draft them first, then you were never that sure to begin with and you might as well take a blue-chip prospect. Round 2 and onwards I have no qualms with overdrafting a QB. There's just too much value with top 10 picks for me to throw it away on a prayer. The Bills not only didn't trade up, they traded DOWN before selecting EJ. No confidence at all. I mean it's still better than staying put and drafting him but it was an utterly bizarre move that reeked of dysfunction and lack of direction. No but they've said we should use a 1st round pick on one at all costs, even though the 1st round (especially at #10) is when blue chip players are available. The Jaguars missed out on an amazing 1st round draft class when they selected Blaine Gabbert in 2011. I mean who was the last QB taken later than #1 or #2 that ended up succeeding? Lately, more success has been found in the 2nd (Carr), 3rd (Wilson) and 4th (Prescott, Cousins). I think the Bills would be much much smarter to identify a QB they like in round 2 or later and grab a blue-chip player at #10, rather than losing out because they took a project QB with major development concerns (see: Manuel, EJ). The flip side is imagine if the Raiders took Khalil Mack and Carr was gone by their next pick.
jeffismagic Posted April 5, 2017 Posted April 5, 2017 ....don't get to see college football.....but most of the "pundits" have Mahomes in the middle of the pack in the "Top 10 2017 QB Draft Prospects"......anybody help me out here as to why?.....seems like they all have flaws....Watson's red flag was ball velocity....Mitch's is "one year starter"......so why is Pat a seemingly big favorite here?............ Honestly, if you want to get the excitement just watch a game where you can see every snap. Scouting reports don't do him justice. You have to see for yourself.
OldTimer1960 Posted April 5, 2017 Posted April 5, 2017 Honestly, if you want to get the excitement just watch a game where you can see every snap. Scouting reports don't do him justice. You have to see for yourself. I'm sorry for not getting it, but there are a LOT of behind the line throws here and a lot of scramble throws. There is talent required for the on the run throws, but any competent NFL QB could make the behind the line throws. I still see a lot of off balance throws and few, if any, timing throws. I may be in the minority, but I still see a long-shot NFL QB.
jeffismagic Posted April 5, 2017 Posted April 5, 2017 I'm sorry for not getting it, but there are a LOT of behind the line throws here and a lot of scramble throws. There is talent required for the on the run throws, but any competent NFL QB could make the behind the line throws. I still see a lot of off balance throws and few, if any, timing throws. I may be in the minority, but I still see a long-shot NFL QB. That's the beautiful thing about this time of year. Soon enough we will know who is right and who is wrong.
DaBillsFanSince1973 Posted April 5, 2017 Posted April 5, 2017 (edited) Honestly, if you want to get the excitement just watch a game where you can see every snap. Scouting reports don't do him justice. You have to see for yourself. watching some of this he looks more like a 2nd or 3rd round prospect but I'm no expert. he just wasn't all that impressive to me. Edited April 5, 2017 by DaBillsFanSince1973
HappyDays Posted April 5, 2017 Posted April 5, 2017 The flip side is imagine if the Raiders took Khalil Mack and Carr was gone by their next pick. If you take this logic far enough you'll have 4th round QBs taken #1 overall. IMO part of being a smart GM is recognizing that you're not smarter than everyone else. There is an element of luck with the draft, and with QB it's far less than a 50/50 proposition. A real GENIUS would have taken Carr at 1, Wilson at 2, Prescott would be a top 5 pick at least. Since no one sees these prospects coming, it makes no sense to me that you would spend your QB lottery ticket in the 1st round since that's when your other lottery tickets are much more likely to cash in. If there's a QB worth the 10th pick that QB is also worth the 1st overall pick which means you'll have to trade up or already have it. We don't have to be merely hypothetical about this. How many QBs taken in the 6-32 range end up working out? In reverse order: Paxton Lynch, Johnny Manziel, Teddy Bridgewater, EJ Manuel, Ryan Tannehill, Brandon Weeden, Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, Christian Ponder... Please make it stop. In 08 you have Flacco and of course 05 you have Rodgers. That's the success rate of the last 11 drafts. But you're gonna try and tell me the Bills will be making some huge mistake by choosing to not add another name to this list? Come on. You're not smarter than everyone else. It takes a smart person to accept that.
BuffaloFan68 Posted April 6, 2017 Posted April 6, 2017 Mahomes definitely won't last till our second pick. If we could land him & Williams - our offense would be unstoppable with our current line & RBs. Go Bills!!!!!
reddogblitz Posted April 6, 2017 Posted April 6, 2017 I was watching a draft program on NFL Network last night. Kurt Warner and the Mooch were having the QBs throw 4 NFL type throws one right the other from under center. Mahomes was the only one that hit all 4. They also had Webb and a couple of other guys.
FireChan Posted April 6, 2017 Posted April 6, 2017 (edited) If you take this logic far enough you'll have 4th round QBs taken #1 overall. IMO part of being a smart GM is recognizing that you're not smarter than everyone else. There is an element of luck with the draft, and with QB it's far less than a 50/50 proposition. A real GENIUS would have taken Carr at 1, Wilson at 2, Prescott would be a top 5 pick at least. Since no one sees these prospects coming, it makes no sense to me that you would spend your QB lottery ticket in the 1st round since that's when your other lottery tickets are much more likely to cash in. If there's a QB worth the 10th pick that QB is also worth the 1st overall pick which means you'll have to trade up or already have it. We don't have to be merely hypothetical about this. How many QBs taken in the 6-32 range end up working out? In reverse order: Paxton Lynch, Johnny Manziel, Teddy Bridgewater, EJ Manuel, Ryan Tannehill, Brandon Weeden, Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, Christian Ponder... Please make it stop. In 08 you have Flacco and of course 05 you have Rodgers. That's the success rate of the last 11 drafts. But you're gonna try and tell me the Bills will be making some huge mistake by choosing to not add another name to this list? Come on. You're not smarter than everyone else. It takes a smart person to accept that. I 100% agree with this statement but my conclusion is wildly different. If the draft is a crapshoot, and usually only 1 QB per draft on average becomes a franchise tier guy, you absolutely need to take shots on guys you believe in. Derek Carr would've been successful taken a round earlier. So would've Dak. And Wilson. If finding a franchise guy is dumb luck, then you need to buy some lotto tickets. And as much as folks bag on 1st round QB's who bust, let's look at Bills first rounders in the last 11 drafts who are on the roster in the 6-32 range. Shaq Lawson. That's it. You need to take shots on QB's. Oakland didn't turn their franchise around because of Khalil Mack. They did it with Derek Carr. Luckily for them, they ended up with both. But I contend that if we reached on Carr at #8 in 2014, we would be the ones who made the postseason last year, not them. And while I understand your take of "then all QB's would be taken higher" taking an early second late first QB prospect in the top 10 ain't that crazy. It just really isn't. Edited April 6, 2017 by FireChan
RK_BillsFan Posted April 6, 2017 Posted April 6, 2017 You know, i sit here and I watch these videos of Mahomes, and then i read all the negatives people have about him. Things like, oh he doesn't go through his reads, not a lot of pocket passes, bad form, blah blah. Are we all watching the same videos? No on sits back there for that long and doesn't go through reads. I mean just look at the pump fakes he does. Also sure he has to get out of the pocket.... often, but then again his line doesn't exactly seem good. As for his form. If the ball gets to where it needs to be on any given play, who cares. What a stupid thing to care about. I mean the guy is constantly finding an open guy, who is usually not his first read, and regardless of being still or on the move getting the ball where it needs to be. Sure he misses passes, but man does he look a lot like a young Big Ben.
4BillsintheBurgh Posted April 6, 2017 Posted April 6, 2017 You know, i sit here and I watch these videos of Mahomes, and then i read all the negatives people have about him. Things like, oh he doesn't go through his reads, not a lot of pocket passes, bad form, blah blah. Are we all watching the same videos? No on sits back there for that long and doesn't go through reads. I mean just look at the pump fakes he does. Also sure he has to get out of the pocket.... often, but then again his line doesn't exactly seem good. As for his form. If the ball gets to where it needs to be on any given play, who cares. What a stupid thing to care about. I mean the guy is constantly finding an open guy, who is usually not his first read, and regardless of being still or on the move getting the ball where it needs to be. Sure he misses passes, but man does he look a lot like a young Big Ben. I look at what wvu did to him and I think that's what defense he'll get in the nfl until he shows he can move a team consistently in the pocket. Especially the first half tape made it look like he would have problems running an nfl offense and I don't think his escape ability will be as helpful in the nfl as it was in college. He could learn to make plays from the pocket instead of on the run but I personally don't think that warrants the #10 pick.
RK_BillsFan Posted April 6, 2017 Posted April 6, 2017 Just to clarify, i would never take him at #10 overall. I don't know if I'd take him in the second round, although If we were to trade down and pick up another second I would be OK with it.
billspro Posted April 6, 2017 Posted April 6, 2017 Honestly, if you want to get the excitement just watch a game where you can see every snap. Scouting reports don't do him justice. You have to see for yourself. That is probably his best game. If you would like to see some of the negatives about Mahommes watch this game.
jeffismagic Posted April 6, 2017 Posted April 6, 2017 That is probably his best game. If you would like to see some of the negatives about Mahommes watch this game. No, I'd rather take 3 or 4 random plays out of context and declare him a future draft bust. Wait, sounds like a Fahey "evaluation".
17 Josh Allen Posted April 6, 2017 Posted April 6, 2017 I wrote this in another post a bout Mahomes. This guy is the best QB in the draft bar none. He will be a pro bowler down the line. He is the closest thing to Aaron Rogers and Brett Farve there is. He makes un believable throws that are Acurate from weird angels and with bad foot work. This guy is the one you want. The NFL is not like college. You don't always get a lot of clean pockets and you don't always get to set up and throw on balance or get your feet set. I want a QB that can throw on the run or throw when his feet are not correct and people are in his face. This guy can do that in spades. Go watch him on YouTube you will see something extraordinary. Don't get fooled about the experts saying oh his foot work is bad, His back leg shakes, Blah, Blah, Blah. Watch Chargers Rivers, Watch GB Rogers these guys throw at all angels, throw with in correct foot work and throw on the move across there body all the time. Who the Fu@k cares how they throw it. Does he complete the passes yes he does. Yes you will be required to do that in The NFL , good one's can pull it off. Well when I watch Mahomes that's what I see. So please just stop the nonsense. If we get this guy a great new Era in Bills football is about to begin. His statistics mean nothing to me or what offense he played. my eyes don't lie I see the next great on and he's there for the taking. Let me ask all the detractors of him, how many times does a NFL QB go back and set up and not have to move off his spot. Most times QBs end up having to move and throw off there back foot or throw moving forward or rolling out. Playing QB in the NFL you don't have a lot of time. Go watch this kid play, watch him throw. He is doing amazing stuff. Making throws from all sorrts or bad angles off his back foot, flat footed and on the run. Most of them right on the mark. I could care less about his satistics or how many TDs he's thrown. He has started a ton of games. This guy is a leader and he has a very strong arm. He can do things most QB's can only dream about. He is Farve, he is Rogers he has that gift. Keep wanting that perfect foot work WB that Perfect throwing motion QB. I will take this guy over that guy 10 ways to Sunday every day of the week. If we are lucky to get this guy I be dancing in the street. I take him with the first pick in the draft he is that good. Here is Patrick Mahomes playing against the great LSU Tigers Defense from the SEC in his Bowl Game. Just some unbelievable plays by Mahomes. These are the type of players he will be playing against in the NFL. Maybe he will have some offensive linemen to protect him. LSU is chasing him all over the field and the kid is just making plays like a Farve or Rogers would. This guy is special you can just see it, feel it and sense it. These might be his most interesting high lights because of the stud defense LSU has. This is fun to watch. It's like watching Farve in his prime https://youtu.be/k4rGwPzAnbo You can't teach what he does and how he makes those throws in any of his games or in that LSU game against future NFL defenders. Only guys like Farve and Rogers and a hand full of other QB's can do that. I don't care what anyone says. I said it when the Bills passed on Russell Wilson and I will say it right now. You pass on this guy your making a big mistake. I can't wait for the John Gruden QB camp thing with Mahomes. Just like the Russell Wilson one. Man you could just tell that he was going to be special. Here it is for those who missed Russell Wilson with John Gruden how do you not draft this guy after watching this https://youtu.be/ON16iCklqLY
GunnerBill Posted April 6, 2017 Posted April 6, 2017 I wrote this in another post a bout Mahomes. Well just write it in one place then!!! This is getting ridiculous.
thebandit27 Posted April 6, 2017 Posted April 6, 2017 Well just write it in one place then!!! This is getting ridiculous. It's a copy/paste job Gunner; he keeps forgetting to remove that line--since the exact same paragraph has been posted repeatedly in this very thread.
HansLanda Posted April 6, 2017 Posted April 6, 2017 (edited) You know, i sit here and I watch these videos of Mahomes, and then i read all the negatives people have about him. Things like, oh he doesn't go through his reads, not a lot of pocket passes, bad form, blah blah. Are we all watching the same videos? No on sits back there for that long and doesn't go through reads. I mean just look at the pump fakes he does. Also sure he has to get out of the pocket.... often, but then again his line doesn't exactly seem good. As for his form. If the ball gets to where it needs to be on any given play, who cares. What a stupid thing to care about. I mean the guy is constantly finding an open guy, who is usually not his first read, and regardless of being still or on the move getting the ball where it needs to be. Sure he misses passes, but man does he look a lot like a young Big Ben. The burden/stigma he will carry with him on draft day, and once he's on a team, is the air raid offense he came from. I suspect if you went back and looked at the film of Goff, RG3, Geno, Johnny Football, and even Brandon Weeden you'd also see some similar throws and reads. There are GMs that probably have very strong opinions on guys that come out of that system. Like not on the board in any round kind of opinions. No one that has come from that system has had anymore than one season of success - RG3 and, of all people, Nick Foles. The rest make the Bills QBs since 2000 look like Pro Bowlers. Can Mahomes buck the trend? Maybe. But if you were a bettor, and GMs in a way are betting on players, would you really expect that he's the one guy out of that system that will end up being a franchise or even an above average guy in the NFL? Doubtful. Edited April 6, 2017 by HansLanda
GunnerBill Posted April 6, 2017 Posted April 6, 2017 It's a copy/paste job Gunner; he keeps forgetting to remove that line--since the exact same paragraph has been posted repeatedly in this very thread. The Mods need to do something about it in my opinion. He is entitled to his view but just block pasting the same content time and time again is beyond irritating.
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