thebandit27 Posted April 1, 2017 Posted April 1, 2017 "Arm strength is all you need." - Mahomes supporters everywhere Boy is that an enormous mischaracterization of the pro-Mahomes argument
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted April 1, 2017 Posted April 1, 2017 "Arm strength is all you need." - Mahomes supporters everywhere ....ask Jeff George where arm strength got him.......YAWN......or where the lacking Montana got him (BIGGER Yawn).......just a single component in a QB's repertoire IMO.....
stuvian Posted April 2, 2017 Posted April 2, 2017 His stock is rising each week. He'll be the first QB taken IMO
HappyDays Posted April 2, 2017 Posted April 2, 2017 Watch these videos and tell me honestly he is a better choice than Tyrod next year: https://twitter.com/cianaf/status/848358130077630464 https://twitter.com/Cianaf/status/848358560836845568 https://twitter.com/Cianaf/status/848360047251947521 https://twitter.com/Cianaf/status/848363992804413440 https://twitter.com/Cianaf/status/848366878162640897 https://twitter.com/Cianaf/status/848370391278026753 https://twitter.com/Cianaf/status/848371458174853120 Besides arm strength, what are Mahomes's best qualities? I get it, he can make a few wow throws with his pure strength and willingness to chuck it down the field. But he looks like a far worse version of Cutler to me in these videos.
Dr. Who Posted April 2, 2017 Posted April 2, 2017 I don't think anyone is arguing about next year. The question is whether Tyrod is a long term solution or a bridge qb. If he's a bridge qb, don't you want the developmental qb on the roster "developing" so that the bridge is actually going somewhere? Mahomes has prototypical size, athleticism, and a howitzer. He's creative and makes throws in spite of horrible mechanics. 1) the main point is to get the ball to the receiver. If he does that, I don't really care what his mechanics are. 2) the idea is to draft him to sit and learn for a year or two. It's up to our GM, scouts, and coaches to determine if the young man has the character, intelligence and adaptability to break bad habits and learn. Tarring him with a "far worse version of Cutler" brush is patently unfair. We KNOW Cutler's ceiling, limits, and stubbornness. He's a finished product with flaws that were never fixed. We absolutely do not know this about Mahomes. Further, we do know he played on a team that was defensively terrible, so he knew he had to put up fifty points a game to compete. This might provide some context for "careless gunslinging." Imo, it's a mistake to pass on him if he's available at #10.
BillsFan17 Posted April 2, 2017 Posted April 2, 2017 I don't think anyone is arguing about next year. The question is whether Tyrod is a long term solution or a bridge qb. If he's a bridge qb, don't you want the developmental qb on the roster "developing" so that the bridge is actually going somewhere? Mahomes has prototypical size, athleticism, and a howitzer. He's creative and makes throws in spite of horrible mechanics. 1) the main point is to get the ball to the receiver. If he does that, I don't really care what his mechanics are. 2) the idea is to draft him to sit and learn for a year or two. It's up to our GM, scouts, and coaches to determine if the young man has the character, intelligence and adaptability to break bad habits and learn. Tarring him with a "far worse version of Cutler" brush is patently unfair. We KNOW Cutler's ceiling, limits, and stubbornness. He's a finished product with flaws that were never fixed. We absolutely do not know this about Mahomes. Further, we do know he played on a team that was defensively terrible, so he knew he had to put up fifty points a game to compete. This might provide some context for "careless gunslinging." Imo, it's a mistake to pass on him if he's available at #10. Playing in an Air Raid had nothing to do with with the defense. Mahomes was in an offense designed to throw the ball that often.
Dr. Who Posted April 2, 2017 Posted April 2, 2017 (edited) Boy is that an enormous mischaracterization of the pro-Mahomes argument And yet those who dismiss Mahomes continue to trot out this simplistic argument. Jeff George, Cutler, etc. I won't make absolute claims: very few are impressed with arm strength alone. Obviously it is not determinative of future success. Having a strong arm, however, joined with other necessary qualities, is undoubtedly a plus. Playing in an Air Raid had nothing to do with with the defense. Mahomes was in an offense designed to throw the ball that often. Do you treat being a qb for an Air Raid i.e. spread collegiate offense as equivalent to a bad character flaw that takes a player off your draft board -- or significantly lowers his draft value? Many qbs from this system were Johnny Football size fellas. Mahomes is different and I think he can develop, assuming he has good character, intelligence, and work ethic. Edited April 2, 2017 by Dr. Who
HappyDays Posted April 2, 2017 Posted April 2, 2017 I don't think anyone is arguing about next year. The question is whether Tyrod is a long term solution or a bridge qb. If he's a bridge qb, don't you want the developmental qb on the roster "developing" so that the bridge is actually going somewhere? Mahomes has prototypical size, athleticism, and a howitzer. He's creative and makes throws in spite of horrible mechanics. 1) the main point is to get the ball to the receiver. If he does that, I don't really care what his mechanics are. 2) the idea is to draft him to sit and learn for a year or two. It's up to our GM, scouts, and coaches to determine if the young man has the character, intelligence and adaptability to break bad habits and learn. Tarring him with a "far worse version of Cutler" brush is patently unfair. We KNOW Cutler's ceiling, limits, and stubbornness. He's a finished product with flaws that were never fixed. We absolutely do not know this about Mahomes. Further, we do know he played on a team that was defensively terrible, so he knew he had to put up fifty points a game to compete. This might provide some context for "careless gunslinging." Imo, it's a mistake to pass on him if he's available at #10. Did you watch the videos? His issue is that he ISN'T getting the ball to his receiver. Many of his throws have horrible ball placement. And many of his careless throws come early in close games, they aren't all because they're behind. Of course Mahomes could develop and unlearn all his bad habits, but the same was true of EJ. It's very very unlikely that QBs with that many problems ever fix them.
jeffismagic Posted April 2, 2017 Posted April 2, 2017 Did you watch the videos? His issue is that he ISN'T getting the ball to his receiver. Many of his throws have horrible ball placement. And many of his careless throws come early in close games, they aren't all because they're behind. Of course Mahomes could develop and unlearn all his bad habits, but the same was true of EJ. It's very very unlikely that QBs with that many problems ever fix them. The CoT strikes again. Everyone but TT who can't throw a slant pattern on time is terrible.
billspro Posted April 2, 2017 Posted April 2, 2017 Watch these videos and tell me honestly he is a better choice than Tyrod next year: https://twitter.com/cianaf/status/848358130077630464 https://twitter.com/Cianaf/status/848358560836845568 https://twitter.com/Cianaf/status/848360047251947521 https://twitter.com/Cianaf/status/848363992804413440 https://twitter.com/Cianaf/status/848366878162640897 https://twitter.com/Cianaf/status/848370391278026753 https://twitter.com/Cianaf/status/848371458174853120 Besides arm strength, what are Mahomes's best qualities? I get it, he can make a few wow throws with his pure strength and willingness to chuck it down the field. But he looks like a far worse version of Cutler to me in these videos. The people that like Mahomes are just enamoured with his arm strength. He is a third round prospect that will likely get taken in round 2. He has all the talent to be a great NFL QB. Saying that he does not step up in the pocket, relies on the scramble drill, has accuracy issues, and terrible mechanics. Those are probably too many obstacles to over come to become a great QB. The talent is there but he is a 2-3 year developmental guy, if he gets thrown in to early he will bust.
jeffismagic Posted April 2, 2017 Posted April 2, 2017 The people that like Mahomes are just enamoured with his arm strength. He is a third round prospect that will likely get taken in round 2. He has all the talent to be a great NFL QB. Saying that he does not step up in the pocket, relies on the scramble drill, has accuracy issues, and terrible mechanics. Those are probably too many obstacles to over come to become a great QB. The talent is there but he is a 2-3 year developmental guy, if he gets thrown in to early he will bust. Please actually watch video of every snap Mahomes takes for a game. Fahey is just trying to get clicks to his terrible blog. He reminds me of the fools who compared Dak to Tebow last year as a passer. I like Mahomes because his accuracy is excellent both with a clean pocket and under duress. He also throws receivers open and throws with anticipation.
YoloinOhio Posted April 2, 2017 Posted April 2, 2017 @presnapreads Patrick Mahomes and the allure of upside http://presnapreads.com/2017/04/02/patrick-mahomes-and-the-allure-of-upside/
thebandit27 Posted April 2, 2017 Posted April 2, 2017 The people that like Mahomes are just enamoured with his arm strength. He is a third round prospect that will likely get taken in round 2. He has all the talent to be a great NFL QB. Saying that he does not step up in the pocket, relies on the scramble drill, has accuracy issues, and terrible mechanics. Those are probably too many obstacles to over come to become a great QB. The talent is there but he is a 2-3 year developmental guy, if he gets thrown in to early he will bust. I have no clue why there's this odd need to perpetuate a myth that every Mahomes supporter is simply focused on his arm strength. It's bizarre to say the least. Not that I expect everyone to have read my QB evaluation thread, but I covered my position on him at length: solid measurables, can extend plays--but also shows the ability to speed up his snap-to-release time when necessary, able to make his pre-snap reads, can drop his deep throws in the bucket, and most importantly he showed progress in terms of keeping his feet calm and climbing the pocket more often in 2016. He's not a perfect prospect; he needs to improve upon his erratic footwork and develop more of a comfort level in the pocket--become more consistent with climbing to safety instead of breaking out the back (sound familiar?). Nearly every Mahomes supporter acknowledges all of this; perhaps it makes more sense to make your analysis about the player and not his supporters.
HappyDays Posted April 2, 2017 Posted April 2, 2017 @presnapreads Patrick Mahomes and the allure of upside http://presnapreads.com/2017/04/02/patrick-mahomes-and-the-allure-of-upside/ Came here to post this, this is an excellent breakdown of Mahomes's game. It even compares to Tyrod briefly at the end. To sum it up: poor ball placement, poor pocket presence, poor footwork, poor anticipation, poor decision making. But he looks good when he breaks out of the pocket to the right. No thanks at #10.
jeffismagic Posted April 2, 2017 Posted April 2, 2017 Came here to post this, this is an excellent breakdown of Mahomes's game. It even compares to Tyrod briefly at the end. To sum it up: poor ball placement, poor pocket presence, poor footwork, poor anticipation, poor decision making. But he looks good when he breaks out of the pocket to the right. No thanks at #10. Yes, I am sure that the QB gurus of the NFL such as Sean Payton and Bruce Arians are looking for a QB with "poor ball placement, poor pocket presence, poor footwork, poor anticipation, poor decision making". The only thing poor is Fahey's ability to evaluate a QB. There are people that don't like Mahomes as much as Trubisky or Watson and that is fine. But Fahey's evaluation is so one-sided and negative that it appears he is just looking for suckers to go to his blog.
HappyDays Posted April 2, 2017 Posted April 2, 2017 Yes, I am sure that the QB gurus of the NFL such as Sean Payton and Bruce Arians are looking for a QB with "poor ball placement, poor pocket presence, poor footwork, poor anticipation, poor decision making". The only thing poor is Fahey's ability to evaluate a QB. There are people that don't like Mahomes as much as Trubisky or Watson and that is fine. But Fahey's evaluation is so one-sided and negative that it appears he is just looking for suckers to go to his blog. There are no "QB gurus" in the NFL. What does that even mean? NFL teams make poor drafting decisions all the time, moreso at QB than any other position.
jeffismagic Posted April 2, 2017 Posted April 2, 2017 There are no "QB gurus" in the NFL. What does that even mean? NFL teams make poor drafting decisions all the time, moreso at QB than any other position. Bruce Arians is a known QB guru. Use Google, I can't help you with basics.
thebandit27 Posted April 2, 2017 Posted April 2, 2017 Came here to post this, this is an excellent breakdown of Mahomes's game. It even compares to Tyrod briefly at the end. To sum it up: poor ball placement, poor pocket presence, poor footwork, poor anticipation, poor decision making. But he looks good when he breaks out of the pocket to the right. No thanks at #10. I like Cian Fahey, but the gate swings both ways with this type of analysis https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fanragsports.com/nfl/patrick-mahomes-best-qb-nfl-draft/amp/
jeffismagic Posted April 2, 2017 Posted April 2, 2017 (edited) I like Cian Fahey, but the gate swings both ways with this type of analysis https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fanragsports.com/nfl/patrick-mahomes-best-qb-nfl-draft/amp/ Nice stat. Justin Higdon @afc2nfc 1st down conversion % on 3rd&long passes (7+ yd) this year Mahomes 45.2 Trubisky 40.8 Watson 38.3 Kizer 33.9 Allen 32.7 Falk 30 Kaaya 26.2 I hadn't seen this before Bandit but it's cool to see because I have Mahomes as QB1 and Trubisky as QB2. Edited April 2, 2017 by jeffismagic
HappyDays Posted April 2, 2017 Posted April 2, 2017 I like Cian Fahey, but the gate swings both ways with this type of analysis https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fanragsports.com/nfl/patrick-mahomes-best-qb-nfl-draft/amp/ His analysis makes no sense even in his own terms. He concludes that Mahomes's floor is Eli Manning and his ceiling is Ben Roethlisberger which is an absurd thing to say in any context. He spends one section trashing Mahomes's decision making, then says his decision making is worthy of a 3rd round prospect. All he does is point out Mahomes's rare wow plays, which yes he does have, while downplaying his flaws. I mean he mentions all of Mahomes's flaws but concludes if you can just fix those flaws he will be fine. Well that's the point of the other article, QBs rarely fix major flaws like that. Like it's pretty well established that Mahomes's footwork is his worst trait, but that article only brings it up once, says he sometimes misses "day one" footwork mechanics. So he ignores all of Mahomes's flaws and buys into the big plays everyone with a Twitter account has seen. Well the entire body of work taken as a whole is scary. Many of his wow plays are because he's playing against lesser talent. This article points out a few plays where his receiver bailed him out or a defender dropped a sure pick six. He won't get away with that in the NFL. He lacks the basic fundamentals and arm strength isn't enough to overcome that.
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