dave mcbride Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 Watson never completed less than 67% of his passes. How is the kid being deemed inaccurate? Especially when his attempts rose every year he played college. His YPA isn't anything to sneeze at either with 7.9. One of my favorite assets of this kid is his accuracy when the stage is the biggest. Doesn't get rattled and dials it in. Sure, there are times where he will make a risky throw and allow his WR to make a play. I am taking that method at the position over the simple dump pff that won't go for first down yardage on third down. Not for nothing everyone talks about how good of a WR Williams is- watson had a phenomenal year WITHOUT him in the lineup last year. Now, people give watson grief for utilizing Williams ability to win contested balls. Not for nothing I would love to have a QB that would do that more with the likes of Watkins, Clay and if we keep him (Hunter). People can try and creative whatever narrative they want about Watson, but there is absolutely no denying his ability. College accuracy is tricky, especially with regard to dominant/elite programs. Manuel was very accurate in college, but if you actually watched FSU games, receivers were wide open all of the time. The same goes for Clemson- they are loaded at the WR position and guys are always open against the zone defenses they face every week. I'm not saying he's not accurate; just that you need factor in the situations he threw the ball in.
jeffismagic Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 College accuracy is tricky, especially with regard to dominant/elite programs. Manuel was very accurate in college, but if you actually watched FSU games, receivers were wide open all of the time. The same goes for Clemson- they are loaded at the WR position and guys are always open against the zone defenses they face every week. I'm not saying he's not accurate; just that you need factor in the situations he threw the ball in. There are concerns with Watson and accuracy. It's not a fatal flaw but it's there. Shanahan: It takes a while to learn to be a pocket passer. You can tell that he struggled a little bit with the intermediate and deep routes. That does take some time. Your footwork in the pocket, your ability to slide in the pocket, instead of just taking off and looking downfield or looking at the holes in the defense where you can keep your head up and still slide and still focus downfield. And key the whole defense? That takes time. That doesn’t happen overnight. So that’s something he is going to have to work on. http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2017/01/11/nfl-draft-deshaun-watson-stock-round-scouting-report-mike-shanahan-josh-mccown-randall-cunningham
dave mcbride Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 You can be in a poor situation and still show more than Goff did last year. Yeah, he looked really bad, even factoring in the situation. I'd be very worried if I were the Rams.
jeffismagic Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 Yeah, he looked really bad, even factoring in the situation. I'd be very worried if I were the Rams. Yeah, I was discussing Goff before last year's draft and I remember my scouting friend saying he wouldn't take Goff in the 1st, rather have Dak. Called Goff a robot.
Bill_with_it Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 Welcome aboard , you don't make the rules new guy. I'd drop the whole holier than thou shtick if I was you. Your comments to bandit and Jeff are disturbing. This will conclude our talks. Can't wait to see Tru/Wat/Mahomes in red and blue. im not holier than though. When you make a statement as to let Tyrod go then draft a qb round one and say who cares if he fails or not we do it again the next year. Thats borderline lunaric. Because im a new poster doesnt mean I cant sniff out the terrible takes on thia board which your posts have been. Good day and hope you have the same.
DriveFor1Outta5 Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 (edited) Bradford had a pretty darn good season last year - 71.6 completion rate (which led the NFL), nearly 4K yards, a 99.3 rating, a 20/5 TD/INT ratio, and 7 ypa. It's not otherworldly, but it was definitely better than average. The Vikings had the worst running game in the league (by far - 32nd in yards and 32nd in ypa) , which killed their offense. He may be on the verge of elevating himself out of the game manager category. Further proof that numbers don't tell the entire story. Watching a few Vikings games last year showed me that Bradford was clearly a liability. He played well the first few games, and had a miserable second half of the season. When I look at the guys I had in my "game manager" level when I did my Quarterback thread (http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/191762-a-favourite-offseason-thread-quarterback-rankings/) Which for those who don't want to look back at the thread was: The Game Managers: 17. Alex Smith 18. Andy Dalton 19. Kirk Cousins 20. Ryan Tannehill 21. Tyrod Taylor 22. Sam Bradford You have: 3 1st round picks (2 of whom went #1 overall); 1 2nd round pick; 1 4th round pick; 1 6th round pick. So whilst ideally you find a Quarterback at that level in a later round.... the truth is a lot of guys who are even at that level are picked in the 1st. I wouldn't call any of those Quarterbacks busts. If I think that is the floor of a guy I like in whichever draft then I pick him there and hope I get better than the floor. We can split hairs over the semantics of Bradford being a bust, but he certainly isn't what anyone dreams of from a first round QB. You draft a first round QB with the hopes of winning titles. Anything less is a disappointment barring other extreme weakness on the team. If I knew that a guy at the level of Bradford was the best I could get in the first round, I'd wait another year to select a QB. That's how I feel about this years QB class. I don't personally see anyone being much better than the level of Bradford. That would influence me if I were GM to wait until next year to draft a high round QB. The QB class of 2007 that included Bradford can't be considered anything other than a bust. If Bradford is the best of a QB class, it's not a class that I'd want to pick from. Edited March 8, 2017 by DriveFor1Outta5
BillsFan17 Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 College accuracy is tricky, especially with regard to dominant/elite programs. Manuel was very accurate in college, but if you actually watched FSU games, receivers were wide open all of the time. The same goes for Clemson- they are loaded at the WR position and guys are always open against the zone defenses they face every week. I'm not saying he's not accurate; just that you need factor in the situations he threw the ball in. Not the end all be all, but you cant deny the fact the impression it gives that, despite the turnovers he is still very accurate. With or without big time WRs in the lineup. Heck, won the Heisman without Mike Williams. His decision making needs to be worked on,I call it the John Tavares effect, which, at times you take too much onto your own shoulders when you to shouldn't be. In turn, mistakes are made. I think, without a shadow of a doubt, if his INT numbers were lower he would be a sure fired top ten discussion pick instead of just a "first rounder." As far as Manuel, not to be an apologist, but by all accounts the kid was rushed. Despite that, played very well in his early rookie starts. The injury against the Browns is when I feel like the set back started and was never corrected from there. I feel with Watson, and this whole for that matter, like Manuel shouldn't be pushed into the lineup early.
jeffismagic Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 Further proof that numbers don't tell the entire story. Watching a few Vikings games last year showed me that Bradford was clearly a liability. He played well the first few games, and had a miserable second half of the season. We can split hairs over the semantics of Bradford being a bust, but he certainly isn't what anyone dreams of from a first round QB. You draft a first round QB with the hopes of winning titles. Anything less is a disappointment barring other extreme weakness on the team. If I knew that a guy at the level of Bradford was the best I could get in the first round, I'd wait another year to select a QB. That's how I feel about this years QB class. I don't personally see anyone being much better than the level of Bradford. That would influence me if I were GM to wait until next year to draft a high round QB. The QB class of 2007 that included Bradford can't be considered anything other than a bust. If Bradford is the best of a QB class, it's not a class that I'd want to pick from. An injured Sam Bradford is not the best upside for the QBs on this class. Sorry, not even close. Would I pass on a QB with Great Pocket Presence Great Accuracy Big Arm Lightning Release Athleticism and Mobility to Throw On Run No, I would not.
DriveFor1Outta5 Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 (edited) An injured Sam Bradford is not the best upside for the QBs on this class. Sorry, not even close. Would I pass on a QB with Great Pocket Presence Great Accuracy Big Arm Lightning Release Athleticism and Mobility to Throw On Run No, I would not. He's been hurt his entire career, and when he's healthy he's average. Bradford is not any better than TT. This is the case of the "every other QB is better" syndrome. I just don't like this season class. I wouldn't have a problem doing what no one has discussed yet. Take a QB in the third or forth. That way you haven't invested much in a questionable class. Next year take a guy in the first. I just really like Darnold,Rosen,Luke Falk, and a guy from Wyoming named Josh Allen. I'm just not confident in this years class. I would be disappointed if we used the tenth pick on QB. Edited March 8, 2017 by DriveFor1Outta5
Alphadawg7 Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 Watson never completed less than 67% of his passes. How is the kid being deemed inaccurate? Especially when his attempts rose every year he played college. His YPA isn't anything to sneeze at either with 7.9. One of my favorite assets of this kid is his accuracy when the stage is the biggest. Doesn't get rattled and dials it in. Sure, there are times where he will make a risky throw and allow his WR to make a play. I am taking that method at the position over the simple dump pff that won't go for first down yardage on third down. Not for nothing everyone talks about how good of a WR Williams is- watson had a phenomenal year WITHOUT him in the lineup last year. Now, people give watson grief for utilizing Williams ability to win contested balls. Not for nothing I would love to have a QB that would do that more with the likes of Watkins, Clay and if we keep him (Hunter). People can try and creative whatever narrative they want about Watson, but there is absolutely no denying his ability. To answer your questions: 1. He has 30 INT's in his last 2 college seasons (which is like a season and a half in the NFL) where the talent is lower, the schemes are simpler. 2. People need to remember that just because a pass "completes" doesn't mean it was a good or accurate throw. He has benefited from the both the scheme and talent at WR as well which helps bolster accuracy. Even in the Championship game he made some inaccurate throws at the end of the game that his WR's made insane catches to complete to bail him out where if they don't, they lose that game. He's not the least accurate QB by any means, but there are reasons why his accuracy is questionable at the next level.
jeffismagic Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 He's been hurt his entire career, and when he's healthy he's average. Bradford is not any better than TT. This is the case of the "every other QB is better" syndrome. I have no idea why you are still talking about Bradford. Your take that Bradford is the best case scenario is your own and not shared by others. I see Mahomes as a future top 5 QB if he hits potential.
DriveFor1Outta5 Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 (edited) I have no idea why you are still talking about Bradford. Your take that Bradford is the best case scenario is your own and not shared by others. I see Mahomes as a future top 5 QB if he hits potential. You mentioned Bradford, and I responded. I'm done with him. His name came up because I mentioned how many QB classes were total busts. I think that this year will be too. People started claiming that Bradford is a better QB than he actually is. I'm just not fond of this years QB class. I really like next years QB class. I could very well be wrong. In reality no one knows, including the pros who get paid to know these things. I just felt the need to offer an opposing view to the idea that Mahomes is guaranteed to be the next Rodgers. Edited March 8, 2017 by DriveFor1Outta5
Alphadawg7 Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 Bottom line is this: This could not be a worse year for the Bills to target a QB in the draft for a number of reasons: 1. We have a lot of holes to fill, and this draft is LOADED with talent in a lot of areas like S, CB, WR, TE, and LB and is already being called one of the richest and deepest drafts in a long time. 2. The 2 weakest parts of this draft are OT and QB. 3. We don't have a 4th round pick in a draft where you can get a WR, DB or TE in the 4th that would go in the 2nd or 3rd in most drafts. I guess thats the Bills way..."Hey, we only 3 picks in the first 4 rounds...so lets use one on the weakest part of this draft at a position that wasn't our biggest problem while ignoring BETTER prospects at BIGGER positions of need". #brilliance
FireChan Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 Bottom line is this: This could not be a worse year for the Bills to target a QB in the draft for a number of reasons: 1. We have a lot of holes to fill, and this draft is LOADED with talent in a lot of areas like S, CB, WR, TE, and LB and is already being called one of the richest and deepest drafts in a long time. 2. The 2 weakest parts of this draft are OT and QB. 3. We don't have a 4th round pick in a draft where you can get a WR, DB or TE in the 4th that would go in the 2nd or 3rd in most drafts. I guess thats the Bills way..."Hey, we only 3 picks in the first 4 rounds...so lets use one on the weakest part of this draft at a position that wasn't our biggest problem while ignoring BETTER prospects at BIGGER positions of need". #brilliance Drafting for need is how you end up with a ****ty draft.
BillsFan17 Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 To answer your questions: 1. He has 30 INT's in his last 2 college seasons (which is like a season and a half in the NFL) where the talent is lower, the schemes are simpler. 2. People need to remember that just because a pass "completes" doesn't mean it was a good or accurate throw. He has benefited from the both the scheme and talent at WR as well which helps bolster accuracy. Even in the Championship game he made some inaccurate throws at the end of the game that his WR's made insane catches to complete to bail him out where if they don't, they lose that game. He's not the least accurate QB by any means, but there are reasons why his accuracy is questionable at the next level. Your current NFL MVP had 37 in his last two years at BU. Not for nothing having a 4-2 ratio in the two games against Ohio State and Albama whom have NFL caliber secondaries. NEither of the two INTs coming against Bama, on the biggest stage, executtin two beautiful drives. Almost every QB worth their weight will be bailed out by their WR. Antonio Brown, ODB, Julio Jones, etc... all have bailed out their QB. It's one of the things that helps seperate them from their peers. The point is, these guys are willing to allow their playmaker to make a play on the ball. Not for nothing we drafted a WR forth overall and paid Clay handsomely. Wouldnt you rather see those guys be given a chance to make a play oppose to a short check down? The type of play that looks good on the state sheet and yet doesn't bet first downs or utilize the talent we have tried to accrue. And believe me I am not saying he's without fault. I also acknowledge that not every pass is an accurate one, but in that regard not every INT is a QBS fault. Bad routes, play call, tipped passes, etc..
JTO Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 Much rather draft Kelly. He looks really good and may be this years Dak.
jeffismagic Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 Much rather draft Kelly. He looks really good and may be this years Dak. I want Mahomes and Kelly. Kelly can be had for a late round pick.
Chicken Boo Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 I haven't watched a lot of college football(outside of a few games I bet on during the season, I've watched none.) From what I've heard about Watson is that he's an all time great college QB, but his game won't translate well to the NFL. He doesn't make enough throws from the pocket, lacks accuracy too often, etc. He dominated the best college defense in football in consecutive seasons on the biggest stage the college game has to offer. Deshaun is the best QB in this draft. I'm really not sure why people are trying so hard to NOT believe their own eyes.
Alphadawg7 Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 Drafting for need is how you end up with a ****ty draft. Exactly...so why create a need by cutting Taylor just to HAVE to draft for need at one of the weak positions in what is an insanely talented and deep draft everywhere else? If we keep Taylor, then we can take the best player available, which could even be a QB if that were the case (which lets be honest, no QB in this draft will the BPA on any board at the 10th pick). But if we CUT Taylor, now you are MAKING us draft on NEED and not take the BEST prospect available. I mean you are literally making my point for me.
BillsFan17 Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 Exactly...so why create a need by cutting Taylor just to HAVE to draft for need at one of the weak positions in what is an insanely talented and deep draft everywhere else? If we keep Taylor, then we can take the best player available, which could even be a QB if that were the case (which lets be honest, no QB in this draft will the BPA on any board at the 10th pick). But if we CUT Taylor, now you are MAKING us draft on NEED and not take the BEST prospect available. I mean you are literally making my point for me. You could cut Taylor and roll with Cardale. Might not sound ideal, but if we are bad enough and have a shot at Darnold or Rosen or Falk. Heck, best case scenerio, Jones ends up being the answer. All in all Taylor is not taking this team to the post season.
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