TheFunPolice Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 Let's not take a top-notch QB prospect because it's not a sure thing! Let's instead try to hit on 7-8 picks and sign one of the great defensive minds at DC so we can have one of the all-time great defenses for one or two seasons before it gets picked apart and becomes just a decent defense! You have to actually try in order to succeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mead107 Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 Can't take him this season because we are tanking next season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swnybillsfan Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 i am definitely intrigued by mahomes. watching some of his footage, he almost seems to have a bit of the ol' "flutie magic" to his game. my thought is simple that if you do not have that qb on your roster that is undoubtedly "your guy", you need to keep looking for him. and you have to swing the bat to get the big hit, so there is that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 (edited) I remember when NFL talking heads were saying that about Big Ben. The truth is these guys don't even know who can play, let alone how long it will take. That's a function of work ethic and flexibility from the offensive coordinator. The Bills currently run an offense where the QB is protected more than any team. Mahomes would be ready far earlier than people realize. His coach was installing plays from New England and Green Bay for him to run in college. Unless Dennison is idiot then I won't worry. I don't put too much stock into what talking heads say. Based on what I've seen and read, I don't see how anyone can come away thinking either of those guys is anything close to a finished product. These kids are long term projects and in the case of Mahomes, I'd be surprised if he was starting meaningful games in his first 2 years. Edited April 4, 2017 by Bangarang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 I don't put too much stock into what talking heads say. Based on what I've seen and read, I don't see how anyone can come away thinking either of those guys is anything close to a finished product. These kids are long term projects and in the case of Mahomes, I'd be surprised if he was starting meaningful games in his first 2 years. Well, get ready to be surprised then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billspro Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 Watson has great intangibles. When NFL teams meet him they will feel like they are talking to Dak from last year. I just don't see the upside with him. His arm talent is comparable to people that are #2 QB's. Saying you can make every throw is fine but if it floats in the air corners will break on it. In Buffalo that would be further magnified. He had a ridiculous supporting cast. Mike Williams, Renfrow, Leggett, and Artavis Scott will all be NFL players. I would take Artavis Scott in the 5th and be fine with that. Clemson coaches did a great job and he was the top QB in college but I don't take him in the first. I don't think his arm strength will be an issue in the pros because he has great anticipation. His ball will get there at the same time as QBs with big arms because his anticipation is so good. He also has the best back shoulder throw I have ever seen coming out of college. He did have some talent around him but he played defenses that matched up talent wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 I don't think his arm strength will be an issue in the pros because he has great anticipation. His ball will get there at the same time as QBs with big arms because his anticipation is so good. He also has the best back shoulder throw I have ever seen coming out of college. He did have some talent around him but he played defenses that matched up talent wise. That's fine on short routes but there are throws that Watson won't be able to make that a Mahomes could. That's just a fact. The NFL is littered with smart QB's that dominated in college but didn't have ideal NFL arms. Those type of players make good backups. I see Watson, at best, as a low level starter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 That's fine on short routes but there are throws that Watson won't be able to make that a Mahomes could. That's just a fact. The NFL is littered with smart QB's that dominated in college but didn't have ideal NFL arms. Those type of players make good backups. I see Watson, at best, as a low level starter. His arm is fine. There are plenty of NFL QBs without outstanding arms. Watson will be a franchise QB.... not elite but franchise, in my opinion. Mahomes ceiling is elite. His floor is bust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 His arm is fine. There are plenty of NFL QBs without outstanding arms. Watson will be a franchise QB.... not elite but franchise, in my opinion. Mahomes ceiling is elite. His floor is bust. We have the sample data here. No one throwing the ball 53 and lower has been a franchise QB in the last decade. DeShaun Watson's ball velocity : 49 mph ... That number got me thinking , how many people in the NFL have succeeded with an arm like that , the answer none. From 2008 - 16 , every prospect with a ball velocity under 55 mph failed in the NFL , if you don't think its that big a problem : What does that mean , well , not one prospect with a ball speed like Watson's (in our sample data) has succeeded in the NFL. Its not like Watson makes up his speed with his accuracy or judgments those are considered his weak points, so basically he is done, finished. The only two prospects to throw under 55 mph and have any remote success have been Tyrod Taylor (50) and Dak (54) but they both had injured shoulders when it was measured. Obviously having a great arm like Logan Thomas (60) wont guarantee you success but anything below 55 mph , you are bound to fail . Other prospects this year you can scratch off the list are Kaaya and Peterman who both had a speed of 53 mph. http://www.ninersnation.com/2017/3/11/14893540/the-nail-in-the-coffin-for-watson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 (edited) We have the sample data here. No one throwing the ball 53 and lower has been a franchise QB in the last decade. DeShaun Watson's ball velocity : 49 mph ... That number got me thinking , how many people in the NFL have succeeded with an arm like that , the answer none. From 2008 - 16 , every prospect with a ball velocity under 55 mph failed in the NFL , if you don't think its that big a problem : What does that mean , well , not one prospect with a ball speed like Watson's (in our sample data) has succeeded in the NFL. Its not like Watson makes up his speed with his accuracy or judgments those are considered his weak points, so basically he is done, finished. The only two prospects to throw under 55 mph and have any remote success have been Tyrod Taylor (50) and Dak (54) but they both had injured shoulders when it was measured. Obviously having a great arm like Logan Thomas (60) wont guarantee you success but anything below 55 mph , you are bound to fail . Other prospects this year you can scratch off the list are Kaaya and Peterman who both had a speed of 53 mph. http://www.ninersnation.com/2017/3/11/14893540/the-nail-in-the-coffin-for-watson They don't have all the franchise guys' ball speeds soooo. Edited April 4, 2017 by FireChan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 We have the sample data here. No one throwing the ball 53 and lower has been a franchise QB in the last decade. I've seen the numbers, but my firm belief on evaluation is the tape doesn't lie. I feel as strongly about Watson as you do about Mahomes and I have not hidden it in any way. I am always there to be shot at when I am wrong about Quarterbacks because my opinions are always very clearly recorded on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cripple Creek Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 You have to actually try in order to succeed. Truth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 (edited) I've seen the numbers, but my firm belief on evaluation is the tape doesn't lie. I feel as strongly about Watson as you do about Mahomes and I have not hidden it in any way. I am always there to be shot at when I am wrong about Quarterbacks because my opinions are always very clearly recorded on this forum. I was told about Watson's throwing issues before I even saw the combine numbers. My source told me he throws a fluttering ball. That is a huge red flag and the combine MPH only confirms what I was told. Paul Hamilton of WGR watched Mahomes play a game on Youtube last night and now doesn't want to draft him. Trade up!!!! Edited April 4, 2017 by jeffismagic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 I was told about Watson's throwing issues before I even saw the combine numbers. My source told me he throws a fluttering ball. That is a huge red flag and the combine MPH only confirms what I was told. And your source is entitled to think whatever he wants. I will stick with my own opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 And your source is entitled to think whatever he wants. I will stick with my own opinion. If I was an NFL coach and loved the tape as much as you I wouldn't take Watson off my board but I would look into the way he throws the ball and see if there is reason for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFunPolice Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 Kurt Warner threw ducks but they were accurate ducks (in John Madden's words) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 Kurt Warner threw ducks but they were accurate ducks (in John Madden's words) Yep. Warner is one of my favourite Quarterbacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 Kurt Warner threw ducks but they were accurate ducks (in John Madden's words) That's the problem with subjective views of arm strength. Fans will say but what about Brady or Warner. The problem is both have good arm strength. Here is Warner's original scouting report. http://www.foxsports.com/midwest/story/throwback-thursday-the-one-and-only-kurt-warner-pre-draft-scouting-report-051415 Tom Brady has also been clocked throwing a football and it was not 49 MPH. 61 MPH crossing patterns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 That's the problem with subjective views of arm strength. Fans will say but what about Brady or Warner. The problem is both have good arm strength. Here is Warner's original scouting report. http://www.foxsports.com/midwest/story/throwback-thursday-the-one-and-only-kurt-warner-pre-draft-scouting-report-051415 Tom Brady has also been clocked throwing a football and it was not 49 MPH. 61 MPH crossing patterns What was the distance used when measuring MPH when th these throws? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 What was the distance used when measuring MPH when th these throws? I doubt it was as far as the combine because they wanted to make Tommy look good. But point still stands that Brady doesn't have a noodle arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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