Rapoport: Hints that Bills Are Likely to Keep Tyrod Taylor

[John from Riverside]

 

 

Dude, this isn't something I think. It's something I know. And so should anyone else who's listening.

 

For the eight millionth time, teams weren't saying "Make him be a quarterback," for nothing.

 

His mobility made him harder to defend, but the impact of his poor passing attack was a much bigger boon to them than his mobility was a disadvantage. Every QB has one strength, or they don't make it to the NFL. But mobility is a lot more dangerous in a running back than a QB. Mike Vick was mobile too, more so than Tyrod. Teams feared great passers much more than Vick, a genuinely great runner at QB.

 

They'd have been a lot more tentative if Tyrod had allowed the Bills to put together a good passing game than they were because he runs very well.

 

 

 

Nice move. I see what you're doing there. It's much easier to counter an argument when you twist what the guy said than when you counter their actual words. Neither FireChan nor I ever said,it "always" happens. So all you did there is change our argument and then attack your own words. It looks like you win when you're really just playing with yourself.

 

I said there was a history of it. FireChan said it happened regularly. The reason we said that was ... well, frankly there's a history of it and it happens regularly.

 

 

 

 

 

You're cracking me up here. You can say the Jets stopped the Bills run game on the way to the QB, but you're seriously mixing up cause and effect. You don't make your goal to attack the horrible pass game when the run game is the best in the league. Coaches don't say, "We've got to take away this team's weakness." That's laughable. The Falcons aren't saying "Lets build our defense around taking away the Pats run game." Ridiculous. And yet you're actually trying to make that argument that stopping Manuel's pass game was the Jets' major goal.

 

They, like the other teams we played, were a ton more worried about the run game than the pass game. The pass game simply wasn't good or productive. The reason the Jets stopped the run game was that they put their effort into doing exactly that.

 

To repeat yet again, teams said, "Make [Tyrod] play quarterback." They didn't say, "make McCoy play running back," or "Make Tyrod leave the pocket and run," Just the opposite. They attacked the run game because they knew we couldn't beat anyone with the pass game.

 

"Even when they have seven in the box ..." Dude, they usually had eight. Tyrod never made them sweat about the pass game enough to back them off. And yet the run game was still terrific.

you dont get it

[Thurman#1]

you dont get it

 

 

Wow. I'm overwhelmed by that logic. Great post.

 

The problem for your side is that Whaley doesn't get it either, paying a bridge QB at franchise QB rates for a year or two. Know who else doesn't get it? All the teams saying, "Make him be a quarterback."

 

And IMHO history will end up showing that Tyrod is going to end up a career backup starting another year or two down the road. I like him. I hope I'm wrong. But you can pretty much count the QBs in NFL history who hadn't shown themselves by their sixth year to be franchise guys who then became franchise guys on a fraction of one hand.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Thurman#1

[John from Riverside]

 

 

Wow. I'm overwhelmed by that logic. Great post.

its just been explained to much and your not gonna come off your stance so long x and o explanations are pointless

 

the team is either rebiulding and drafting a qb at 10 or they are piking up TTs option with a OC that has formerly worked with him...hopefully still drafting a qb high

[Thurman#1]

That i understand. How do YOU feel about Cardale stepping in for a game or two, next season I mean of course. With another year another camp preseason etc, i might hope he is good enough to fill in. If he is not even adequate i will begin to worry. This year i had no expectations of him. Next year I will.

 

 

It might be asking too much of him.

 

The book on Cardale from most pundits was that he would probably need at least two years of development.

 

I'd love to see that timetable speed up, but it's unlikely.

[Thurman#1]

its just been explained to much and your not gonna come off your stance so long x and o explanations are pointless

 

the team is either rebiulding and drafting a qb at 10 or they are piking up TTs option with a OC that has formerly worked with him...hopefully still drafting a qb high

 

 

It has been explained too much.

 

But not convincingly or well.

 

I have a history of coming off stances when logical and new arguments make me re-think things. I haven't seen any especially good arguments coming anywhere close to convincing, though, successfully explaining why the passing game just wasn't good this year. I watched the All-22, I saw open recievers on almost every single play of the four to five games I watched.

 

As for your alternatives there, I see a bunch of others. I could imagine them re-negotiating Tyrod so that he's a bridge QB with a bridge QB's contract and then keeping him for a couple of years, with maybe more back-loading to the new contract so if he improves and they want to keep him after a couple of years, they would have to start paying him franchise QB money.

 

Or dumping him and not drafting a new guy at #10, instead trading back for another first rounder in the 2018 draft so they could be a player for a top guy in that draft. Bringing in a Hoyer type for 2017 and not expecting much.

 

They have plenty of options.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Thurman#1

[John from Riverside]

 

 

It has been explained too much.

 

But not well.

 

As for your alternatives there, I see a bunch of others. I could imagine them re-negotiating Tyrod so that he's a bridge QB with a bridge QB's contract and then keeping him for a couple of years, with maybe more back-loading to the new contract so if he improves and they want to keep him after a couple of years, they would have to start paying him franchise QB money.

 

Or dumping him and not drafting a new guy at #10, instead trading back for another first rounder in the 2018 draft so they could be a player for a top guy in that draft. Bringing in a Hoyer type for 2017 and not expecting much.

 

They have plenty of options.

so....you want to lose in hopes of getting a high pick

 

yep...that works out most of the time

 

the "bridge option" makes TT a 20 something level qb for the next 2 years....not exactly that out there

[3rdand12]

 

 

It might be asking too much of him.

 

The book on Cardale from most pundits was that he would probably need at least two years of development.

 

I'd love to see that timetable speed up, but it's unlikely.

Well David Lee is gone !!!

[Cripple Creek]

 

would a qb that can make quick accurate throws also work here? For sure

So, your opinion is that fast thinking, accurate passers have a place in the NFL? Way to go out on a limb there.

[BADOLBILZ]

 

 

Dude, this isn't something I think. It's something I know. And so should anyone else who's listening.

 

For the eight millionth time, teams weren't saying "Make him be a quarterback," for nothing.

 

His mobility made him harder to defend, but the impact of his poor passing attack was a much bigger boon to them than his mobility was a disadvantage. Every QB has one strength, or they don't make it to the NFL. But mobility is a lot more dangerous in a running back than a QB. Mike Vick was mobile too, more so than Tyrod. Teams feared great passers much more than Vick, a genuinely great runner at QB.

 

They'd have been a lot more tentative if Tyrod had allowed the Bills to put together a good passing game than they were because he runs very well.

 

 

 

Nice move. I see what you're doing there. It's much easier to counter an argument when you twist what the guy said than when you counter their actual words. Neither FireChan nor I ever said it "always" happens. So all you did there is change our argument and then attack your own words. It looks like you win when you're really just playing with yourself.

 

I said there was a history of it. FireChan said it happened regularly. The reason we said that was ... well, frankly there's a history of it and it happens regularly. Not always, but often. Was Robert Turbin a better back than Marshawn the year the Seahawks won the Super Bowl? He was if you judge by YPA that year, by more than half a yard. It happens with some regularity. Christine Michael also had a higher YPA than Marshawn that year. The next year Turbin didn't, but Michael did. The next year both of them destroyed him. Whitaker and Artis-Payne beat out Jonathan Stewart in Carolina this year, Whitaker by nearly a yard per run. Both other guys beat out Blount this year in New England. Kenyan Drake beat out Ajayi in Miami by half a yard. Terron Ward had 31 attempts in Atlanta this year and beat out Freeman and Coleman. In Washington, both Matt Jones and Chris Thompson killed Robert Kelley in far fewer attempts, And I could go on and on.

 

Building an argument on the main RB being beaten out by the guys behind him in YPC is building an argument on air.

 

 

 

 

You're cracking me up here. You can say the Jets stopped the Bills run game on the way to the QB, but you're seriously mixing up cause and effect. You don't make your goal to attack the horrible pass game when the run game is the best in the league. Coaches don't say, "We've got to take away this team's weakness." That's laughable. Your argument is that the Jets said, "Which should we try to take away, the best run game in the league or the intimidating EJ Manuel-led pass game? We need to The Falcons aren't saying "Lets build our defense around taking away the Pats run game." Ridiculous. And yet you're actually trying to make that argument that stopping Manuel's pass game was the Jets' major goal. They were keying on McCoy all game long, or the other RBs when McCoy went out.

 

They, like the other teams we played, were a ton more worried about the run game than the pass game. The pass game simply wasn't particularly good or productive this year. The reason the Jets stopped the run game was that they put their effort into doing exactly that.

 

To repeat yet again, teams said, "Make [Tyrod] play quarterback." They didn't say, "make McCoy play running back," or "Make Tyrod leave the pocket and run," Just the opposite. They attacked the run game both because it was excellent and because they knew we couldn't pressure anyone with the pass game.

 

Tyrod never made them sweat about the pass game enough to back them off. The thing about how good his long balls are is mostly from 2015. He wasn't all that impressive long this year, he missed a lot of throws and teams knew they didn't have to worry much about him going to the deep and intermediate middle, so they set up deep and outside.

 

 

1) The "make him be a quarterback" stuff is not an explanation......it's your misinterpretation of a comment.

 

What it meant was that they wanted to keep him in the pocket.......which is by nature a passive, tentative maneuver on defense.

 

That was a tactic that worked on a guy like Doug Flutie........the Bills were the most talented team in the AFC in 1999 but ended up in Tennessee because they lost two home games that season to bad teams(Raiders/Giants) that simply kept him in the pocket and forced him to make throws from within it.......which literally stifled everything they wanted to do on offense.

 

The tactic really didn't work that well on Tyrod because he can do things Doug could not....... his strong arm allowed Tyrod to hit deep outs that Flutie would one-hop. And of course.......the deep ball. Tyrod is as tremendous at it.

 

2) Teams feared Michael Vick plenty. Any take to the contrary is revisionist to be kind. He went into Lambeau and beat Favre in the playoffs for fuxake. Tyrod is a better version of Vick.......a killer running the ball but a much more dangerous passer and that makes him an even greater facilitator of the running game.......which was really the main selling point of Vick. Vick by nature made the Falcons run game better..........but not like Tyrod has with the Bills. It's on another level. Facts are facts.......check the stats if you disagree.

 

3) What do Lynch, Stewart and Blount have in common? Big physical backs that wear down defenses. If ever there is a running back that should have a GREAT ypc it's a big play scatback like LeSean McCoy. He brings zero to the physical aspect of the game. Yet the big backs that handled all the short yardage duty for him ALSO out-produced him significantly on a huge number of carries on ypc and long TD runs. It's not just the ypc, it's also the TD production, which you guys just can't grasp the impact of. You can try to write it off all you want........the stats just KEPT ON PROVING THE TAPE CORRECT......... and that's what you miss......it's about the tape where the big backs were taking the inside lanes and able to get momentum into holes because the OL was allowed to get into their blocks. Without the benefit of the time that Tyrod buys that OL to reach it's blocks and the RB's to get upfield it is an entirely different looking rushing attack. About 1 ypc LESS....which is a TON. League average ypc is 4.2 and the Marrone Bills lead the league in rushing before with an average not much higher than that. The boost in the run game from Tyrod in this system has been EXTRAORDINARY. I understand there is a lot of football ignorance on this board but it's right there on tape if you care enough to educate yourself.

 

4) You are literally contradicting yourself with the last two highlights. Penetration kills slow developing running games.........so why weren't teams that aggressive EVERY week?

Edited February 1, 2017 by #BADOL

[hondo in seattle]

Thurman#1, I haven't read all your posts but you seem fixated with Tyrod's limitations as a QB. And those limitations are real.

 

Yet the Lynn/Tyrod combo put up 27 points per game. And if you think that's all Shady and MG, I don't think you're truly appreciating the cumulative genius of Roman's play design, Lynn's play calling, and TT's athleticism.

 

To give one simple example, outside defenders had to worry about contain even when Shady started heading up the middle. TT's threat as a runner made defenses play differently. The reason we led the NFL in rushing is more than just Shady's talent as a running back. It was a clever overall running attack that relied on multiple threats.

 

Tyrod threw for roughly 3,000 yards. He ran for another 500 or so. And his mere presence in the backfield, given the play design, resulted in - who knows? - maybe 500 more yards for the Shady and the backs. That's not peanuts. Even if EJ or Cardale passed for a comparable 3,000 yards, the Bills offense would have scored far fewer points with them as QBs. Roman and Lynn didn't build the offense around Shady. Nor did they build it around Tyrod. They built it around the combination. I agree it was painful to watch Tyrod miss open receivers. But it was fun to watch the brilliance of our rushing attack. And when Tyrod had streaks of accuracy, which he did sometimes, the Bills moved the ball down the field with ease.

 

Because of the uniqueness of the Bills offensive scheme and Tyrod's skill set, I don't know if another OC could deliver a top 10 scoring offense with TT under center. It's a legitimate concern. But - despite his flaws and failures - TT was integral to the scoring success the Bills had last year.

[John from Riverside]

Thurman#1, I haven't read all your posts but you seem fixated with Tyrod's limitations as a QB. And those limitations are real.

 

Yet the Lynn/Tyrod combo put up 27 points per game. And if you think that's all Shady and MG, I don't think you're truly appreciating the cumulative genius of Roman's play design, Lynn's play calling, and TT's athleticism.

 

To give one simple example, outside defenders had to worry about contain even when Shady started heading up the middle. TT's threat as a runner made defenses play differently. The reason we led the NFL in rushing is more than just Shady's talent as a running back. It was a clever overall running attack that relied on multiple threats.

 

Tyrod threw for roughly 3,000 yards. He ran for another 500 or so. And his mere presence in the backfield, given the play design, resulted in - who knows? - maybe 500 more yards for the Shady and the backs. That's not peanuts. Even if EJ or Cardale passed for a comparable 3,000 yards, the Bills offense would have scored far fewer points with them as QBs. Roman and Lynn didn't build the offense around Shady. Nor did they build it around Tyrod. They built it around the combination. I agree it was painful to watch Tyrod miss open receivers. But it was fun to watch the brilliance of our rushing attack. And when Tyrod had streaks of accuracy, which he did sometimes, the Bills moved the ball down the field with ease.

 

Because of the uniqueness of the Bills offensive scheme and Tyrod's skill set, I don't know if another OC could deliver a top 10 scoring offense with TT under center. It's a legitimate concern. But - despite his flaws and failures - TT was integral to the scoring success the Bills had last year.

thank you for explaining this again

 

i was in a car accident last week and just have my use of one arm right now....did not want to one finger type that all out.

 

It was a system that generated last years points and it was tts unique skill set that made it work. your not just gonna throw anoter jag out there and get te same production

[BADOLBILZ]

Thurman#1, I haven't read all your posts but you seem fixated with Tyrod's limitations as a QB. And those limitations are real.

 

Yet the Lynn/Tyrod combo put up 27 points per game. And if you think that's all Shady and MG, I don't think you're truly appreciating the cumulative genius of Roman's play design, Lynn's play calling, and TT's athleticism.

 

To give one simple example, outside defenders had to worry about contain even when Shady started heading up the middle. TT's threat as a runner made defenses play differently. The reason we led the NFL in rushing is more than just Shady's talent as a running back. It was a clever overall running attack that relied on multiple threats.

 

Tyrod threw for roughly 3,000 yards. He ran for another 500 or so. And his mere presence in the backfield, given the play design, resulted in - who knows? - maybe 500 more yards for the Shady and the backs. That's not peanuts. Even if EJ or Cardale passed for a comparable 3,000 yards, the Bills offense would have scored far fewer points with them as QBs. Roman and Lynn didn't build the offense around Shady. Nor did they build it around Tyrod. They built it around the combination. I agree it was painful to watch Tyrod miss open receivers. But it was fun to watch the brilliance of our rushing attack. And when Tyrod had streaks of accuracy, which he did sometimes, the Bills moved the ball down the field with ease.

 

Because of the uniqueness of the Bills offensive scheme and Tyrod's skill set, I don't know if another OC could deliver a top 10 scoring offense with TT under center. It's a legitimate concern. But - despite his flaws and failures - TT was integral to the scoring success the Bills had last year.

 

 

The system was working and I hated to see it leave but Dennison should bring a better passing game and it's reasonable to expect Sammy back to at least the health of 2014-2015 and hopefully they address WR2 which has been a glaring need since Rex arrived(in fact Rex listed it as need #1 when he first arrived). Woods simply has not lived up to being the 1B type WR they expected with a high second round pick........once the ball hits his hands his feet turn to roller skates, groin hurt or no groin hurt.

 

I'm more concerned about the OL fitting than Tyrod.........the Roman system really covered for their lack of athleticism.......but in all fairness, the same concerns followed Roman here. They adjusted and didn't attack with nearly the same quickness as they did in SF but with a big help from Tyrod they got far more production in the run game. Hopefully Dennison can keep some things and make it work.

 

I can see where there could be issues but Mike Vick was brought up in this thread and in a similarly west-coasty Andy Reid offense Vick had his finest season......including a few unreal performances. Tyrod is a much better passer so it's not necessarily a square peg/round hole fit.

[Maury Ballstein]

Woods simply has not lived up to being the 1B type WR they expected with a high second round pick........once the ball hits his hands his feet turn to roller skates, groin hurt or no groin hurt.

 

 

They call that the Tyrod Taylor inaccuracy effect.

thank you for explaining this again

 

i was in a car accident last week and just have my use of one arm right now....did not want to one finger type that all out.

 

It was a system that generated last years points and it was tts unique skill set that made it work. your not just gonna throw anoter jag out there and get te same production

There was no production. Just a dude getting pantsed by all the .500 teams.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Ryan L Billz

[John from Riverside]

They call that the Tyrod Taylor inaccuracy effect.

 

There was no production. Just a dude getting pantsed by all the .500 teams.

ryan

 

what are you going to do when they pick up that contract?

[Wayne Arnold]

Good replies BADOL and hondo.

 

Aside from the handful or so elite ones, there are two types of NFL quarterbacks:

 

(1) those you have to take the good with the bad

(2) those you have to take the bad with the worse

 

Taylor, of course, falls under category 1.

 

That said, I'm choosing to trust that the franchise will allow the coaching staff to determine whether Taylor stays or goes. And I trust the coaching staff to make the proper decision no matter what it is. I personally think Taylor is a good quarterback. But he's also a flawed/unique QB and doesn't fit every offensive system.

[K-9]

thank you for explaining this again

 

i was in a car accident last week and just have my use of one arm right now....did not want to one finger type that all out.

 

It was a system that generated last years points and it was tts unique skill set that made it work. your not just gonna throw anoter jag out there and get te same production

Sorry to hear you were in an accident. Hope you're on the mend and the prognosis is good.

[Maury Ballstein]

ryan

 

what are you going to do when they pick up that contract?

 

Laugh a lot, work more on Sundays, mock the TT fans for the 6-10 season id assume.

 

Maybe hop on the Whaley sucks train.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Ryan L Billz

[Wayne Arnold]

hopefully they address WR2 which has been a glaring need since Rex arrived(in fact Rex listed it as need #1 when he first arrived). Woods simply has not lived up to being the 1B type WR they expected with a high second round pick........once the ball hits his hands his feet turn to roller skates, groin hurt or no groin hurt.

 

I could see Woods being the type of all-around WR Belichick fawns over and will break records with Brady. I can't agree with you here.

ryan

 

what are you going to do when they pick up that contract?

 

Obviously...

 

[John from Riverside]

Sorry to hear you were in an accident. Hope you're on the mend and the prognosis is good.

yeah im better then i should be....broken arm cuts bruises

 

my car is totalled

[Wayne Arnold]

yeah im better then i should be....broken arm cuts bruises

 

my car is totalled

 

Dang, how did it happen?