bills_fan_in_raleigh Posted January 19, 2017 Posted January 19, 2017 i love the Pegulas but really disappointed in Sabres this year and Bills so far. I know they went with sexy rex hire but sometimes ya make major mistakes. I still think they have too much input from Russ on many things but would like to see Whaley and GMTM given the power to make teams good problem is not sure if they know how.
Mr. WEO Posted January 19, 2017 Posted January 19, 2017 No, typically people keep bidding until they win, not hand a blank check. The $1.4B they paid was probably $200M more than Jon Bovi's group was willing to pay. Even with an eye to moving it to Toronto. And nothing is guaranteed. Again I don't see them selling, but I definitely don't see someone offering more than, or even, $1.4B and keeping the team in Buffalo. And with the recent ratings drop... There was no blank check. You haven't been involved in high end bidding. There was no moving to Toronto. The value of the team is already more than what they paid for it (as is, in Buffalo). Where are you getting that the team has lost value from his purchase price? Ratings improved over the year and contracts are locked in for years. NFL is still a best bet for any network---or forever who wants to provide NFL content in the future.
ndirish1978 Posted January 19, 2017 Author Posted January 19, 2017 i love the Pegulas but really disappointed in Sabres this year and Bills so far. I know they went with sexy rex hire but sometimes ya make major mistakes. I still think they have too much input from Russ on many things but would like to see Whaley and GMTM given the power to make teams good problem is not sure if they know how. Totally fair and valid opinion to have. One thing that I think may be lost on people here is that if they as fans don't like the product on the field they NOW have the option of not spending money on the team and actually expressing their opinions without being worried that their actions, in affecting the bottom line, would lead to the team leaving town. Do you guys not remember the conversations we used to have on this board just a couple of years ago that basically went like this: OP - "this team sucks, I'm not renewing my season tickets" Everyone else - "I know, but If we do that the team will move to LA" It's a huge deal that we don't have that hanging over our heads anymore.
GunnerBill Posted January 19, 2017 Posted January 19, 2017 I am grateful to the Pegulas even having never been to Buffalo for keeping the team I love in existence. I don't believe there is a chance in hell they sell the team any time soon. I also believe they care as passionately as anyone about winning. Get put of the way and let their guy work! I just think they have made bad decisions and acted a bit too fan like. They need to approach the Bills with a cold hearted and headed business outlook.
Doc Posted January 19, 2017 Posted January 19, 2017 There was no blank check. You haven't been involved in high end bidding. There was no moving to Toronto. The value of the team is already more than what they paid for it (as is, in Buffalo). Where are you getting that the team has lost value from his purchase price? Ratings improved over the year and contracts are locked in for years. NFL is still a best bet for any network---or forever who wants to provide NFL content in the future. And you have been involved in high end bidding? Suffice it to say you don't stand a good chance of making money when you overpay for things. Yes there was no moving to Toronto because Ralph never did, had provisions to keep the team in Buffalo for years after his death in the hopes of finding a suitable owner, and thankfully the Pegulas bought it and won't be moving it. To think that the team could never have moved is ridiculous, but you're free to continue to claim otherwise. The team is worth more on paper. But the Pegulas paid tens to hundreds of millions more than they probably could have and getting someone to even plunk down $1.4B and keep the team in Buffalo probably wouldn't happen again. Yes the NFL is still a good bet for the short-term. But that's not what we're talking about here.
Mr. WEO Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 And you have been involved in high end bidding? Suffice it to say you don't stand a good chance of making money when you overpay for things. Yes there was no moving to Toronto because Ralph never did, had provisions to keep the team in Buffalo for years after his death in the hopes of finding a suitable owner, and thankfully the Pegulas bought it and won't be moving it. To think that the team could never have moved is ridiculous, but you're free to continue to claim otherwise. The team is worth more on paper. But the Pegulas paid tens to hundreds of millions more than they probably could have and getting someone to even plunk down $1.4B and keep the team in Buffalo probably wouldn't happen again. Yes the NFL is still a good bet for the short-term. But that's not what we're talking about here. We are talking about long term. The value of no team is going down. You clearly said the Pegulas could not get their money back if they sold. That's not true by any evidence. It's great that Pegula bought the team, but the move to Toronto was a bogus story. You "overpay" for an NFL team (if you can) because you understand what everyone knows about the value of these teams, which so rarely come to market. Even keeping the Bills in Buffalo will make Pegula an even richer man than he already is. It's an investment like no other and has fantastic annual returns (especially in Buffalo, with low overhead). Pegula just parks 1.4 billion in the Bills, rakes in 226 million a year with ZERO effort, and pockets 40-50 million, while hanging out with the team and living the life. Hiring and firing HC's in the most popular sport in the land, being front and center. The life!! Stan Kroenke is spending billions on a new stadium--multiples of what he paid for the team--and why? Because he knows he get it all back easily whenever he wanted to sell. ANd that's in a traditionally crappy NFL market. I have been involved in buying property in Manhattan (obviously not on the scale of an NFL team, but nothing like buying with your ReMax agent on a tract home either). When multiple bidders are going at it on an attractive property, and the price is getting well over asking, you either ride it higher and higher a bit at a time, or you make an offer to end all bidding and scare the others out.
Poleshifter Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 I'm glad the team is in Buffalo. They have so far been bad owners. What a dick. There has to be a massive learning curve for new NFL owners. Especially with a business cycle of 12 months, you may have to take some lumps at first. Yes, they got bamboozled by a smooth talking loudmouth who talks a good game. Rather like a snake oil salesman, that old Rex. I am happy to see McDermott take over, and I believe we are now in good hands. Maybe you can change your handle to FireRex or FireAnthony or maybe even FireSean to keep up with the times? Oh well, enjoy yourself.
Doc Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 We are talking about long term. The value of no team is going down. You clearly said the Pegulas could not get their money back if they sold. That's not true by any evidence. It's great that Pegula bought the team, but the move to Toronto was a bogus story. You "overpay" for an NFL team (if you can) because you understand what everyone knows about the value of these teams, which so rarely come to market. Even keeping the Bills in Buffalo will make Pegula an even richer man than he already is. It's an investment like no other and has fantastic annual returns (especially in Buffalo, with low overhead). Pegula just parks 1.4 billion in the Bills, rakes in 226 million a year with ZERO effort, and pockets 40-50 million, while hanging out with the team and living the life. Hiring and firing HC's in the most popular sport in the land, being front and center. The life!! Stan Kroenke is spending billions on a new stadium--multiples of what he paid for the team--and why? Because he knows he get it all back easily whenever he wanted to sell. ANd that's in a traditionally crappy NFL market. I have been involved in buying property in Manhattan (obviously not on the scale of an NFL team, but nothing like buying with your ReMax agent on a tract home either). When multiple bidders are going at it on an attractive property, and the price is getting well over asking, you either ride it higher and higher a bit at a time, or you make an offer to end all bidding and scare the others out. You keep claiming that there is nowhere for the Bills to move. Assuming that's not completely false (as proven by the, oh, three teams that are moving to new cities and the half dozen that have moved the past 30 years), then no, the Pegulas probably wouldn't be able to get their money back if they sold and the team had to stay in Buffalo. Why do you think there were just 2 real suitors last time, and one of them was looking to move to Toronto? And you realize he paid $1.4B, right? Even if he were to make $40-50M/year for what, maybe the 20 more years he has left, it still won't cover what he paid for the team (never mind the time-value of money), meaning he won't be making any money on the team. Sure his kids might reap the benefit by selling the team to someone who will move it elsewhere after Kim passes (but by then I won't care because I'll probably be dead as well). As for Kroenke, overall he paid less than half of what the Pegulas did, having owned 40% of the team since 1995 and purchasing the other 60% in 2010. Never mind the fact that he has his and his wife's money and he's far richer than the Pegulas. Oh and BTW, when he bought the team, he promised to do what he could to keep them in STL. No doubt there was a WEO there claiming he'd never move...until he did. "Been involved." Yeah I've "been involved" with a pharmaceutical company taking a drug to market. But just to play along, that's NYC, not Buffalo. Your "have you ever bought a house and car" is now whittling down "have you ever 'been involved' with high end property..."
CardinalScotts Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 dont let those at TBN screw up your own football intelligence...there are plenty of smart football guys on twitter like @cover1bills the Vics and Buckys and Jay even Tim and especially Sully are horrible football guys. They have never been able to get over being shut out during the spring and hold a grudge against Pegula. For Pegula if you can't give him a fair shake he doesn't have time for you. And TBN had not given the Bills a fair shake. John Warrow objective good writer he gets the stories and I wouldnt say he's a homer or even close.
hondo in seattle Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 (edited) You can call the Bills a dumpster fire. You may hate that Terry has zero public speaking skills. But the fact of the matter is that as of today there are now fans in THREE NFL cities who no longer have a team. Regardless of how the Chargers, Rams and Raiders' last cities treated the team or ownership, I think we can all relate as fans to the sinking feeling of hoping the team you root for will stay in town because they are your team. Obviously this thread will soon be inundated with "that's the kind of thinking that leads to playoff droughts" and calling me a koolaid drinker, but I don't think it's out of line to be grateful to know that my kids will get to be BUFFALO Bills fans. That's all, I don't have a point beyond that. I'm with you, brother! I haven't lived in Buffalo in 30+ years but I still know it's where the Bills belong. And the Pegulas made that happen. I can't find it in my heart to criticize them. Any mistakes they've made since buying the franchise are miniscule compared to the enormity of keeping the Bills in WNY. Edited January 20, 2017 by hondo in seattle
Doc Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 I'm with you, brother! I haven't lived in Buffalo in 30+ years but I still know it's where the Bills belong. And the Pegulas made that happen. I can't find it in my heart to criticize them. Any mistakes they've since buying the franchise are miniscule compared to the enormity of keeping the Bills in WNY. Again we got incredibly lucky that someone wealthy enough has a wife who grew up in Fairport and they both lived in Buffalo.
FireChan Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 You keep claiming that there is nowhere for the Bills to move. Assuming that's not completely false (as proven by the, oh, three teams that are moving to new cities and the half dozen that have moved the past 30 years), then no, the Pegulas probably wouldn't be able to get their money back if they sold and the team had to stay in Buffalo. Why do you think there were just 2 real suitors last time, and one of them was looking to move to Toronto? And you realize he paid $1.4B, right? Even if he were to make $40-50M/year for what, maybe the 20 more years he has left, it still won't cover what he paid for the team (never mind the time-value of money), meaning he won't be making any money on the team. Sure his kids might reap the benefit by selling the team to someone who will move it elsewhere after Kim passes (but by then I won't care because I'll probably be dead as well). As for Kroenke, overall he paid less than half of what the Pegulas did, having owned 40% of the team since 1995 and purchasing the other 60% in 2010. Never mind the fact that he has his and his wife's money and he's far richer than the Pegulas. Oh and BTW, when he bought the team, he promised to do what he could to keep them in STL. No doubt there was a WEO there claiming he'd never move...until he did. "Been involved." Yeah I've "been involved" with a pharmaceutical company taking a drug to market. But just to play along, that's NYC, not Buffalo. Your "have you ever bought a house and car" is now whittling down "have you ever 'been involved' with high end property..." Your fatal mistake is claiming 1.4 billion as sunken cost that he won't make back. But he didn't lose that money, it's just not liquid. He invested it in the team and can get it back any time he wants, but he's getting 20M per as interest.
Peter Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 Your fatal mistake is claiming 1.4 billion as sunken cost that he won't make back. But he didn't lose that money, it's just not liquid. He invested it in the team and can get it back any time he wants, but he's getting 20M per as interest. He could get it back easily . . . if he chose to sell to someone who wants to move the team to London or Toronto . . . . I hope it is a good investment for the Pegulas. Nevertheless, they invested $1.4 B to make sure that the team stays in Buffalo.
Doc Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 Your fatal mistake is claiming 1.4 billion as sunken cost that he won't make back. But he didn't lose that money, it's just not liquid. He invested it in the team and can get it back any time he wants, but he's getting 20M per as interest. I addressed it when I said he could sell the team to someone looking to move it out of Buffalo. Again, the Pegulas are not looking to move the team, much less sell it. With that in mind, and getting back to the original point, he's not in it for the money.
CanadianFan Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 They did this, IIRC. Still learning? They've owned the Sabres for 7 years. Relevant? We were relevant before at 9-7 with a ferocious defense. The Pegulas came into the picture and made us "relevant" by hiring a loudmouth loser who wrecked the team and then fired him. If anything, the Bills were more of a laughingstock and joke with that idiot Rex making big promises and getting basically laughed out of Buffalo. There are many ways to skin a cat and many ways owners can be bad. Just because they waste money doesn't make them good. Sabres are the same. They gave it a good try with the prior management, spent the money. Didn't work, they got new GM, there're new players with upside. That's learning curve. Not every team can win in any pro league. Someone being on top means someone at the bottom. Can't fault them at all. What I'd fault is they spent more money then they should have in players and coaches. That raised expectations beyond what should have been given the talent level.
Doc Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 Sabres are the same. They gave it a good try with the prior management, spent the money. Didn't work, they got new GM, there're new players with upside. That's learning curve. Not every team can win in any pro league. Someone being on top means someone at the bottom. Can't fault them at all. What I'd fault is they spent more money then they should have in players and coaches. That raised expectations beyond what should have been given the talent level. Eichel missing 21 games to start the season severely hurt them.
3rdand12 Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 Now we have a team. Great. But that team has to win Funny thing is that, you are mistaking what being OUR Team means. How many Folks here have been following this Team for decades? Used to be quite a few till the Fantasy Guys showed up. We Have a Team to root for! Thank Terry Pegula and Kim Pegula for that effort. We were All rejoicing !! as a note for reference, seems the Bills for years and years were not REALLY trying to win the SB or make playoffs as just luck into it. Let those years wash away and let yourselves allow patience for at least five years. it is not much to ask honestly. We root for the team. Don't we? Go Pegulas and Thanks We had mostly 50 years of crappy ownership before, I think people are expecting a lot more out of the Pegula's. There's no reason to think they will be better for any reason than just someone different running the show. We're all thankful the team is staying, just like we were thankful to Ralph for keeping the team here 50 years. We want more, we want what many other teams have... a competitive team and at least one championship. of course we do ! no reason to not think that way A good solid team will be a contender for years btw IMO
Mr. WEO Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 You keep claiming that there is nowhere for the Bills to move. Assuming that's not completely false (as proven by the, oh, three teams that are moving to new cities and the half dozen that have moved the past 30 years), then no, the Pegulas probably wouldn't be able to get their money back if they sold and the team had to stay in Buffalo. Why do you think there were just 2 real suitors last time, and one of them was looking to move to Toronto? And you realize he paid $1.4B, right? Even if he were to make $40-50M/year for what, maybe the 20 more years he has left, it still won't cover what he paid for the team (never mind the time-value of money), meaning he won't be making any money on the team. Sure his kids might reap the benefit by selling the team to someone who will move it elsewhere after Kim passes (but by then I won't care because I'll probably be dead as well). As for Kroenke, overall he paid less than half of what the Pegulas did, having owned 40% of the team since 1995 and purchasing the other 60% in 2010. Never mind the fact that he has his and his wife's money and he's far richer than the Pegulas. Oh and BTW, when he bought the team, he promised to do what he could to keep them in STL. No doubt there was a WEO there claiming he'd never move...until he did. "Been involved." Yeah I've "been involved" with a pharmaceutical company taking a drug to market. But just to play along, that's NYC, not Buffalo. Your "have you ever bought a house and car" is now whittling down "have you ever 'been involved' with high end property..." Two of the teams are moving back to LA. There is not an infinite number of cities where teams can relocate too. Even fewer now. You claimed endlessly that Ralph could have moved the team--an meaningless point as he was clearly never going to because it made not sense for him financially ever to do so. The money just kept rolling in. Sure, he would want to veto others moving, but he was fine to threaten a move to get the clowns in Erie County government to pony up for him..again. The Bills moving to Toronto was the utterance of a guy who was not part of the Toronto group. Old news. You're still shocked that Kraft wasn't actually going to move to Connecticut. It doesn't matter who has more billions, Kroenke or Pegula--the latter reportedly paid cash. He will make tens of millions every year to hang out and run an NFL team. He or his survivors will sell the team for multiples of what he paid for it. How can you say he can't make money? Nonsense. You did pick up on the point regarding Kroenke--he's spending far more on the stadium than he did for the team because he knows the combined value is far greater than the cost of either. Again, real simple. Kroenke says what they all say initially. He actually saved those boneheads in St Louis from making another ridiculous giveaway by moving. You have no idea what Pegula or, more accurately, his heirs will do years from now re: moving. I should've been more specific when I said "have you ever bought a house or car--I meant in a competitive bidding scenario. I have and what the Pegulas did to end the bidding may have saved them some money if the bidding incrementally kept spiraling up. Pretty straightforward tactic. In a buyers market, none of this is necessary. The NFL ownership club is not a buyer's market doc. That's pretty self-explanatory as well. Your example about a drug coming to market isn't relevant to the conversation.
Doc Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 Two of the teams are moving back to LA. There is not an infinite number of cities where teams can relocate too. Even fewer now. You claimed endlessly that Ralph could have moved the team--an meaningless point as he was clearly never going to because it made not sense for him financially ever to do so. The money just kept rolling in. Sure, he would want to veto others moving, but he was fine to threaten a move to get the clowns in Erie County government to pony up for him..again. The Bills moving to Toronto was the utterance of a guy who was not part of the Toronto group. Old news. You're still shocked that Kraft wasn't actually going to move to Connecticut. It doesn't matter who has more billions, Kroenke or Pegula--the latter reportedly paid cash. He will make tens of millions every year to hang out and run an NFL team. He or his survivors will sell the team for multiples of what he paid for it. How can you say he can't make money? Nonsense. You did pick up on the point regarding Kroenke--he's spending far more on the stadium than he did for the team because he knows the combined value is far greater than the cost of either. Again, real simple. Kroenke says what they all say initially. He actually saved those boneheads in St Louis from making another ridiculous giveaway by moving. You have no idea what Pegula or, more accurately, his heirs will do years from now re: moving. I should've been more specific when I said "have you ever bought a house or car--I meant in a competitive bidding scenario. I have and what the Pegulas did to end the bidding may have saved them some money if the bidding incrementally kept spiraling up. Pretty straightforward tactic. In a buyers market, none of this is necessary. The NFL ownership club is not a buyer's market doc. That's pretty self-explanatory as well. Your example about a drug coming to market isn't relevant to the conversation. Look WEO, you've been claiming for the better part of 16 years now that there are no more places to relocate to. Yet in just that time span alone, the NFL has gone back into Houston and Cleveland, and teams have relocated to LA and LV. That's 5 (okay 4, with one being used twice) places. Before that there were dozens of expansions and relocations since Ralph started the team. And there is still Toronto. You are completely and totally alone on this and have lost this point. Move on already. And you keep claiming that it made no sense financially for Ralph (and by extension, the Pegulas) to move from the NFL's smallest market...but it makes sense financially for owners in bigger markets to move to even bigger ones? What is that, common core math? Hell, you even said it yourself that just the mere talk of moving to LA caused the Rams' valuation to skyrocket, more than his investment. Does it only work for owners not located in Buffalo? Buying a team that was forced into staying in Buffalo for 5 years was not a seller's market. Hence again the reason there were only 2 suitors. And you can keep saying it until you're blue in the face, but the JonBovi group was going to move the team eventually. It's apparent that what you take for "easy" are really things you don't understand or are intentionally being disingenuous about.
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