DC Tom Posted March 6, 2019 Posted March 6, 2019 1 hour ago, Chef Jim said: Do you really think ANY of us has time for that? Ok back under my Tibs Cone of Silence. I just couldn't resist. It's why I just call him an idiot.
Tiberius Posted March 7, 2019 Posted March 7, 2019 33 minutes ago, DC Tom said: It's why I just call him an idiot. No, it's because you are too stupid to say anything intelligent. Though, I must admit, there is some intelligent design in the pure bull sh it you spin to weave the narrative you follow.
TH3 Posted March 7, 2019 Posted March 7, 2019 9 hours ago, TPS said: Holy crap...stop saying “Obama’s” fiscal policy....it was a JV between the GOP congress and the WH
Teddy KGB Posted March 7, 2019 Posted March 7, 2019 57 minutes ago, DC Tom said: It's why I just call him an idiot. I’ve got him blocked. Let me know if he ever makes it out of the laundromat.
SoCal Deek Posted March 7, 2019 Posted March 7, 2019 I’ll make it simple. During the recession Obama told me that he had to raise my taxes to help out the nation during a time of need. I gladly complied. Now that the recession is over I want my taxes brought back down to pre-recession levels. If the government has a spending habit it’s not up to me to feed this out of control beast. 1
plenzmd1 Posted March 7, 2019 Posted March 7, 2019 7 hours ago, SoCal Deek said: I’ll make it simple. During the recession Obama told me that he had to raise my taxes to help out the nation during a time of need. I gladly complied. Now that the recession is over I want my taxes brought back down to pre-recession levels. If the government has a spending habit it’s not up to me to feed this out of control beast. your married, your wife goes out and outs $20K on your credit card..it is your problem
Nanker Posted March 7, 2019 Posted March 7, 2019 20 hours ago, plenzmd1 said: to both @TPS and @GG, i enjoy the debate and appreciate you guys putting in the time and effort. Helps me understand this stuff better. And not to overcomplicate things, but we now learn we have the largest trade deficit in history. Is that something to be concerned with? https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/trump-promised-to-shrink-the-trade-deficit-instead-it-exploded/2019/03/05/35d3b1e0-3f8f-11e9-a0d3-1210e58a94cf_story.html?utm_term=.5571fa90607d Their debates are like David Stockman Vs. William F. Buckley.
SoCal Deek Posted March 7, 2019 Posted March 7, 2019 1 hour ago, plenzmd1 said: your married, your wife goes out and outs $20K on your credit card..it is your problem I’m not sure what this means but I’m dying to find out what she bought. 1
plenzmd1 Posted March 7, 2019 Posted March 7, 2019 39 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: I’m not sure what this means but I’m dying to find out what she bought. Was just saying the Feds spending like drunken sailors eventually hits all of us..I thinlk 1
TPS Posted March 7, 2019 Posted March 7, 2019 16 hours ago, GG said: The story lines up nicely when you cherry pick the data, such as totally ignoring the spending blowouts related to the financial collapse and Bush bringing the wars on budget. So, yes, AFTER you ignore the nearly $800 billion budget buildup in FYs 2008-2009, Obama looks like a fiscal saint, especially as the war spending died down and interest rates plummeted. There was a massive step up in spending, which was never reversed in Obama's terms. Here's what I said: "Again, with the exception of the first 2 years of the crisis, Obama's fiscal policy was contractionary in the 4 years after 2010." I discussed his stimulus and how small it actually was in terms of spending, Most of it went to tax credits and revenue sharing. It would be great if you could provide the numbers to support your contention that there was "a massive step up in spending, which was never reversed in Obama's terms." Since I provided some numbers that show federal spending fell 4 straight years after 2010, I'd really like to see what you're trying to show here... That also includes the $871 billion stimulous that is emblematic of socialist top down planning. The money was allocated, spent and did nothing to grow the economy. Although Obama signed laws that improved corporate profits, they were all below the operating profit (EBITDA) items that didn't aid in true economic growth. The question you keep avoiding is why if Obama was such a champion of business, why did he preside over the worst economic recovery, when a dead cat bounce was bound to produce average returns? Why did executive after executive proclaim between 2009 and 2011 that they'd be crazy to grow staff, unless they absolutely had to? Why did that attitude suddenly change in November 2016, and the results prove it. This is where you build a straw man case. By definition, a stimulus is temporary and done to offset declining spending in the private sector. For example, as I provided, government spending increased by almost $70 billion in 2009 and another $80 billion in 2010. Contrast that with private sector spending in 2009: Consumption fell by $134 billion and Investment fell by $548 billion. It doesn't take a genius to do the math, but I'll help you. In 2009 government spending increased by $70 billion but private sector spending collapsed by $680 billion. The other side of boosting the economy during a recession is that transfer payment rise in the form of unemployment insurance which don't show up in the spending numbers. In addition, as tax revenues fall, the federal government doesn't have to balance its budget, so deficit gets bigger from that source which also helps stabilize the economy. So, did this temporary stimulus help stabilize the economy? Yes, as private sector spending started increasing again in 2010. The stimulus added another $80 billion, but Consumption increased by $344 billion and investment by $236 billion. That's the point of a short-term stimulus, to prevent the economy from spiraling downward. A temporary stimulus is not meant to create long term growth. As I've posted in this thread, employment growth in Trump's first year (2017) was below the average of the previous 4 years. Faster growth occurred 2018 after Trump increased spending and cut taxes--through bigger deficits, the tried and true method of supply-side economics. Now, if you are trying to equate a rising stock market with a better economy.... There's more to true economic growth than a government throwing money at the problem. Your deficit spending argument doesn't work in all situations. When government spends more in the aftermath of a crisis, it's a short term catalyst. But that in itself does not create a sustainable environment for businesses to continue investing. They'll sit as long as possible on depreciated assets and will not reinvest until it's absolutely necessary. Yay! You do understand it's designed for a short-term kick! As I stated above, it's not meant to create long-term growth, so we agree here. That's the whole point of the OP. The entire business climate changed overnight. Yes, the stock market took off on the expectation of lower taxes, but the real economy did not respond until trump pursued his Keynesian policies. You say spending has not grown under Trump, so I'll copy the numbers I posted earlier: For 2015 -2018: +$7 (14-15), +$11 (15-16 Obama's last year), +$32 (16-17), +$55 (17-18). In Obama's last 2 years, spending went up by $18 billion total; in Trump's first two years, spending went up by $87 billion total. If you are going to argue about factors that changed, please show their impact in actual $s spent. Otherwise you're just asking people to believe you are right, which many here will of course accept if the numbers don't support their beliefs.... 10 hours ago, SoCal Deek said: I’ll make it simple. During the recession Obama told me that he had to raise my taxes to help out the nation during a time of need. I gladly complied. Now that the recession is over I want my taxes brought back down to pre-recession levels. If the government has a spending habit it’s not up to me to feed this out of control beast. What taxes went up in the recession? I'll give you either 2009 or 2010, but please do provide the information.... 50 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said: Was just saying the Feds spending like drunken sailors eventually hits all of us..I thinlk "Eventually something will happen" is about the best argument anyone has made about the debt...
SoCal Deek Posted March 7, 2019 Posted March 7, 2019 34 minutes ago, TPS said: What taxes went up in the recession? I'll give you either 2009 or 2010, but please do provide the information.... "Eventually something will happen" is about the best argument anyone has made about the debt... Ha! You’re clearly not in my income level. (No offense intended.) Obama raised the federal top rate from 35 to 37.5%. It was the only rate that was changed. I guess it doesn’t count if YOU weren’t personally impacted? The ‘Trump’ tax cuts put that rate back down to pre-recession level.
Tiberius Posted March 7, 2019 Posted March 7, 2019 1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said: Ha! You’re clearly not in my income level. (No offense intended.) Obama raised the federal top rate from 35 to 37.5%. It was the only rate that was changed. I guess it doesn’t count if YOU weren’t personally impacted? The ‘Trump’ tax cuts put that rate back down to pre-recession level. And the deficit went up, too. All the complaining about Obama and the deficit when the economy was recovering, now we have a good economy, but it looks like it propped up with massive deficit spending.
TPS Posted March 7, 2019 Posted March 7, 2019 3 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: Ha! You’re clearly not in my income level. (No offense intended.) Obama raised the federal top rate from 35 to 37.5%. It was the only rate that was changed. I guess it doesn’t count if YOU weren’t personally impacted? The ‘Trump’ tax cuts put that rate back down to pre-recession level. You're not talking about the recession in 2009 or 2010. He extended the Bush tax cuts for all but the top rate (you I presume) starting 2011. You claimed he raised taxes during the recession, which was 2009, which is what I was responding to. He raised taxes in 2011 by not extending your rate and passing ACA.
SoCal Deek Posted March 7, 2019 Posted March 7, 2019 Just now, Tiberius said: And the deficit went up, too. All the complaining about Obama and the deficit when the economy was recovering, now we have a good economy, but it looks like it propped up with massive deficit spending. What? The economy is propped up with deficit spending? No, the real question is why does the government keep right on spending even after the economy is at full employment? And much of the answer is because the majority of what the government spends money is mandated by perpetual programs that can never be cut. Interest, defense, and entitlement programs make up the VAST MAJORITY of the federal budget. Just now, TPS said: You're not talking about the recession in 2009 or 2010. He extended the Bush tax cuts for all but the top rate (you I presume) starting 2011. You claimed he raised taxes during the recession, which was 2009, which is what I was responding to. He raised taxes in 2011 by not extending your rate and passing ACA. Geeez, that’s an interesting left wing talking point. Believe me, if it was your taxes that were raised you wouldn’t think of it as a ‘cut’ that wasn’t extended. But one day you’ll run out of other peoples money to spend. Oh wait....you already did, about $20 TRILLION and counting.
TPS Posted March 7, 2019 Posted March 7, 2019 2 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: Geeez, that’s an interesting left wing talking point. Believe me, if it was your taxes that were raised you wouldn’t think of it as a ‘cut’ that wasn’t extended. But one day you’ll run out of other peoples money to spend. Oh wait....you already did, about $20 TRILLION and counting. You misunderstand me. I'm simply trying to point out that Obama did not raise your taxes during the actual recession. I'm not saying I approve, I'm simply saying your statement was not factual. 2011, yes; the recession, no.
Tiberius Posted March 7, 2019 Posted March 7, 2019 6 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: What? The economy is propped up with deficit spending? No, the real question is why does the government keep right on spending even after the economy is at full employment? And much of the answer is because the majority of what the government spends money is mandated by perpetual programs that can never be cut. If the government stopped funding those programs unemployment would increase. Along with other problems that would occur. So the economy is propped up with this deficit spending. If they raised taxes, it might have a similar negative affect on the economy.
Nanker Posted March 7, 2019 Posted March 7, 2019 I’m still paying that f ***** healthcare tax. $3k a year. F ***** you. That and the alternative minimum taxes. My BIL was key in keeping that in place and won biggly in court against a large company. To this day he thinks deductions should be capped and defends the AMT. ****head.
Kevbeau Posted March 7, 2019 Posted March 7, 2019 40 minutes ago, Nanker said: I’m still paying that f ***** healthcare tax. $3k a year. F ***** you. That and the alternative minimum taxes. My BIL was key in keeping that in place and won biggly in court against a large company. To this day he thinks deductions should be capped and defends the AMT. ****head. F*** the AMT 2 1
Chef Jim Posted March 7, 2019 Posted March 7, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Kevbeau said: F*** the AMT AMT has been changed greatly and in a good way recently. Thanks to Trump. https://www.forbes.com/sites/bobcarlson/2018/09/29/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-new-alternative-minimum-tax/amp/ FTA The Tax Cuts and Jobs Act (TCJA), enacted in December 2017, substantially changed the AMT. About 5 million taxpayers were expected to pay the AMT under the old law, but only 200,000 are expected to pay the AMT this year. So few taxpayers will owe the AMT that the IRS says it will remove its online AMT Assistant tax tool. Edited March 7, 2019 by Chef Jim 1
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