Rivers not interested in LA - nevermind he is

[Mr. WEO]

 

Um, I just showed how little the stats you provided matter...the best ever in college in those categories were mostly wash outs in the NFL.

 

And come on man, did you just really suggest building an offense around him throwing short screens and bubble screens? Any QB in the NFL can throw 5 yards...NONE of that changes he struggles throwing DOWNFIELD. You got an issue with that, then go argue with all the professional scouts who have the concerns about him, not me.

 

And when you throw THIRTY interceptions in 2 seasons in a SHORT passing attack, that is a LOT more concerning than any excitement over a QB who has a good comp % in that offense. And furthermore, he has an ELITE WR in Mike Williams who can catch anything in his vicinity that help him down field when his passes are frequently off target...like the 3 times in the final minutes of the National Championship game where they lose if not for 3 insane catches by his WR's on poorly thrown balls.

 

The funniest part about this is that you are arguing with me about what the general consensus is on Watson as if I am responsible for it.

 

"SHORT passing attack"? The guy threw for 4600 yards at 8 YPA.

 

He benefitted from having an "ELITE WR"? Wow, then he will never make it in the NFL...

 

What was the general consensus of professional scouts regarding Russell Wilson? Or Aaron Rodgers? Brady?

 

Do you have any original thoughts regarding Watson?

[metzelaars_lives]

 

He definitely is a HOF QB in my book. Is SB appearances a requirement for the HOF?

 

Dan Fouts and Warren Moon have a combined 0 appearances in the SB. But then you have Namath who is in the HOF. There's TONS of players in the HOF that have 0 SB appearances (granted not all are QBs). You're so sure of yourself that Rivers isn't going to go in the HOF because he has 0 SB appearances. I don't believe that at all.

 

So your argument means nothing to me.

Reading comprehension my friend. I never said I was sure of the fact that he was not a hall of famer. I said he's not a hall of famer yet but if he plays a few more years he could get in as sort of a lifetime achievement award. And dude, Dan Fouts was a vastly superior QB relative to his era than Rivers ever was. Moon was better but not way better but got an easier pass because he was basically blackballed by the NFL and was great in the CFL too.

 

EDIT: I take it back, Moon was way better relative to era too. He was a consensus top 5 QB the majority of his career. Again, there was never a time when Rivers was definitively a top 5 QB.

Edited January 18, 2017 by metzelaars_lives

[GG]

Sure looked comfortable as a LA Charger on Kimmel tonight.

[Prickly Pete]

I couldn't care less about stats, and all that jazz, just watching them play, it's obvious that Rivers is a very good QB with complete command of the offense, and a lot better than Tyrod "what's a 2-minute drill" Taylor.

 

Oh, and no, playing for the Bills has probably not even crossed his mind.

 

But, here's an insider tip, he DREAMS of playing for the Cleveland Browns! Yep, it's true, I heard him say it on a local college radio sports show. He said, as soon as he found out that the Chargers were moving, the team that popped into his mind was "I wanna play for the Browns!".

 

Crazy, huh? Far-fetched that he would want to play for a crappy, cold weather team, on the other side of the country, for a troubled franchise that hasn't been to the playoffs in a long time, but it's all true!

Edited January 18, 2017 by HoF Watkins

[Alphadawg7]

 

"SHORT passing attack"? The guy threw for 4600 yards at 8 YPA.

 

He benefitted from having an "ELITE WR"? Wow, then he will never make it in the NFL...

 

What was the general consensus of professional scouts regarding Russell Wilson? Or Aaron Rodgers? Brady?

 

Do you have any original thoughts regarding Watson?

 

Lol...you have yet to make a single valid argument in this regard. And for the 3rd time, if you don't like the evaluation of Watson, go yell at the scouts then because its also their assessment as well.

 

And if Russel Wilson wasnt short, he would have been a first round pick. Aaron Rodgers was considered for the #1 overall pick and much better prospect than Watson has ever been viewed to be. And for every Brady there are one thousand Johnny Manziels, Matt Leinarts, Akili Smiths, Tim Tebows, Andre Wares, Geno Smiths, EJ Manuel's, Jake Lockers, Blaine Gabberts, etc. That went in the first round that stunk who had questionable skills translating to the NFL level.

[iinii]

Depending on where he lives, where the facilities are and what not SD is somewhat a piece of the same city and not that big a deal at this point in his life to not just "tough" it out for a couple a more years. He will make enough to have a condo somewhere that makes it doable if needed. His wife made a business decision.

[P51]

 

My main agrument here - is he a hall of famer? 5 playoff appearances in 13 seasons. 4 wins. Never even been to a super bowl. Been in 1 AFC chamiponship.

 

I dunno - I guess he'll be rewarded for Longevity - but in his era you have: Brady, Peyton, Eli, Big Ben, Rodgers, Brees... How many QBs from 1 era get into the hall?

 

Here is my take on this: Brady, Manning and Rodgers IMO are easily 3 of the greatest QB's of all time, top 10 and I dont know any knowledgeable football people who disagree. So comparing just about anyone outside the likes of Joe Montana, Brett Farve, Dan Marino, Otto Graham and Johnny Unitas is pointless. Is Rivers one of the 10 greatest QB's ever, no. Brees is pretty close IMO to being in this rare air. Rivers is IMO worthy of Canton in the next tier of QB's at this point and he is approaching the top tier in terms of individual success, team wise the Chargers dont stack up.

 

I believe the whole "winning a super bowl" requirement is truely lame and lazy, if you put Tom Brady on the 2016 Cleveland Browns, they are not going to the Super Bowl, Playoffs or even out of top ten in the draft. So much goes into winning football teams/programs. Ownership, management, coaching, and circumstance are things certain players can not control. Is Trent Dilfer a greater QB than Dan Marino because he won a super bowl? Of course not, that is one of the dumbest things I ever hear, "He never went to/won a super bowl." As my niece still says: "Weak sauce of the highest degree." Marino, Fouts, Kelly, Moon are certainly worse QB's than Brad Johnson, Joe Flacco and Mark Rypien... Does anyone really believe Terry Bradshaw was the reason the Steelers won 4 superbowls???? Was he even one of the best 10 players on those teams???

 

I constantly hear people say Eli M. and Ben R. are/going to be HOF QB's, they came from the same class as Rivers so a look at their careers and instantly people will say: "Eli won two SuperBowls and so did Ben, Rivers 0." What does that have to do with Rivers play? A stat comparison: Between the 3, who has the best career completion %, TD/Int ratio, QB Rating, Passing Yards per game and thrown the fewest INT's?

 

Answers: RIVERS, RIVERS, RIVERS,RIVERS and RIVERS!!

 

Rivers is #2 on career TD's between the 3. Granted he plays a full season next season, he will hit and surpass the 47,000 career passing yards mark, in which every other QB to do so is in the Hall or going to be in the Hall. Yes he has 156 career picks, Favre has 336, Eli and Ben have more, John Elway 226, if Rivers throw 20 picks a year for the next 3 years, he will have fewer career INT's (216) than John Elway (226) in 6 fewer career games, Rivers also has a better INT/G ratio than Elway, .86 : .97. Is he better than Elway? IMO no, but his current and projected career passing #'s are better. He is in the top 15 and will finish in all likelyhood in the top 10 in most major statistical career passing categories.

 

The most important thing to me is the eyeball test, and Rivers play is IMO HOF caliber, he is as competitive a QB (played in the AFC Championship game with a torn ACL) as you will find, he is accurate and smart, and I dont think he's ever missed a game despite taking numerous beatings on the field. So looking at his play on the field, current stats (even in comparison to 2, 2x superbowl champions, in which his career stats are better or comparable at the worst), overall body or work and projected career stats and considering his best WR statistically was Malcom Floyd during Rivers time in SD, with a whopping 321 receptions in 11 (+/-) years (yes he has had Gates at TE, which he has benefited from).

 

My answer to your question: It's a Yes to me for Rivers (the individual player) in the Hall now based on his career up to this point in time, and I believe when he's done his career body of work will be a confirming yes as well. Its a passing era and RIvers IMO stacks up, not at the top but right there under now and infusing himself into that top group.

 

If one predicates HOF credentials on team success, then probably not, because football after all is a individual sport which is why Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson and Joe Flacco will be receiving their Gold Jackets any day now, and that should be the measuring stick. (This sarcasm is not directed at you personally, its a legit question you asked and a good one IMO).

Edited January 18, 2017 by P51

[Mr. WEO]

 

Lol...you have yet to make a single valid argument in this regard. And for the 3rd time, if you don't like the evaluation of Watson, go yell at the scouts then because its also their assessment as well.

 

And if Russel Wilson wasnt short, he would have been a first round pick. Aaron Rodgers was considered for the #1 overall pick and much better prospect than Watson has ever been viewed to be. And for every Brady there are one thousand Johnny Manziels, Matt Leinarts, Akili Smiths, Tim Tebows, Andre Wares, Geno Smiths, EJ Manuel's, Jake Lockers, Blaine Gabberts, etc. That went in the first round that stunk who had questionable skills translating to the NFL level.

 

So, scouts whiffed on Wilson is what you're saying (too short means scouts too dumb). Rodgers famously died a slow death as a "#1 overall pick" in the draft's most famous green room torture scene. He slid all the way to 24, passed by more than one team that could have used his services. Also, your naming of several first round busts pretty much cements the foolishness of many scouts, so...thanks for the assist on that one.

 

Anyway, when I ask you to back up your claim that Watson's is a "short passing game", despite evidence that it is not, your only argument is "look at what the scouts are saying!"

 

That's not valid, as you have already proven (thousands of times they have screwed upon QBs). So why do you keep saying that?

[26CornerBlitz]

@AroundTheNFL

End Around: Philip Rivers, Joey Bosa swear Chargers will be better than Rams on 'Kimmel' http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000775971/article/rivers-bosa-swear-to-be-better-than-rams-on-kimmel

[DriveFor1Outta5]

 

Here is my take on this: Brady, Manning and Rodgers IMO are easily 3 of the greatest QB's of all time, top 10 and I dont know any knowledgeable football people who disagree. So comparing just about anyone outside the likes of Joe Montana, Brett Farve, Dan Marino, Otto Graham and Johnny Unitas is pointless. Is Rivers one of the 10 greatest QB's ever, no. Brees is pretty close IMO to being in this rare air. Rivers is IMO worthy of Canton in the next tier of QB's at this point and he is approaching the top tier in terms of individual success, team wise the Chargers dont stack up.

 

I believe the whole "winning a super bowl" requirement is truely lame and lazy, if you put Tom Brady on the 2016 Cleveland Browns, they are not going to the Super Bowl, Playoffs or even out of top ten in the draft. So much goes into winning football teams/programs. Ownership, management, coaching, and circumstance are things certain players can not control. Is Trent Dilfer a greater QB than Dan Marino because he won a super bowl? Of course not, that is one of the dumbest things I ever hear, "He never went to/won a super bowl." As my niece still says: "Weak sauce of the highest degree." Marino, Fouts, Kelly, Moon are certainly worse QB's than Brad Johnson, Joe Flacco and Mark Rypien... Does anyone really believe Terry Bradshaw was the reason the Steelers won 4 superbowls???? Was he even one of the best 10 players on those teams???

 

I constantly hear people say Eli M. and Ben R. are/going to be HOF QB's, they came from the same class as Rivers so a look at their careers and instantly people will say: "Eli won two SuperBowls and so did Ben, Rivers 0." What does that have to do with Rivers play? A stat comparison: Between the 3, who has the best career completion %, TD/Int ratio, QB Rating, Passing Yards per game and thrown the fewest INT's?

 

Answers: RIVERS, RIVERS, RIVERS,RIVERS and RIVERS!!

 

Rivers is #2 on career TD's between the 3. Granted he plays a full season next season, he will hit and surpass the 47,000 career passing yards mark, in which every other QB to do so is in the Hall or going to be in the Hall. Yes he has 156 career picks, Favre has 336, Eli and Ben have more, John Elway 226, if Rivers throw 20 picks a year for the next 3 years, he will have fewer career INT's (216) than John Elway (226) in 6 fewer career games, Rivers also has a better INT/G ratio than Elway, .86 : .97. Is he better than Elway? IMO no, but his current and projected career passing #'s are better. He is in the top 15 and will finish in all likelyhood in the top 10 in most major statistical career passing categories.

 

The most important thing to me is the eyeball test, and Rivers play is IMO HOF caliber, he is as competitive a QB (played in the AFC Championship game with a torn ACL) as you will find, he is accurate and smart, and I dont think he's ever missed a game despite taking numerous beatings on the field. So looking at his play on the field, current stats (even in comparison to 2, 2x superbowl champions, in which his career stats are better or comparable at the worst), overall body or work and projected career stats and considering his best WR statistically was Malcom Floyd during Rivers time in SD, with a whopping 321 receptions in 11 (+/-) years (yes he has had Gates at TE, which he has benefited from).

 

My answer to your question: It's a Yes to me for Rivers (the individual player) in the Hall now based on his career up to this point in time, and I believe when he's done his career body of work will be a confirming yes as well. Its a passing era and RIvers IMO stacks up, not at the top but right there under now and infusing himself into that top group.

 

If one predicates HOF credentials on team success, then probably not, because football after all is a individual sport which is why Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson and Joe Flacco will be receiving their Gold Jackets any day now, and that should be the measuring stick. (This sarcasm is not directed at you personally, its a legit question you asked and a good one IMO).

The second half of Rivers career is what's going to hurt him with HOF voters imo. He hasn't won much in many years. That's what voters are going to remember about him. Manning and Roethlisberger both have Super Bowl wins, they are in. Rivers hasn't won anything. No Super Bowl wins or appearances. As mentioned by another poster there was also no point in his career where he was unarguably the best QB for a long stretch. That is what he would have needed to get in without any titles to his credit. It's been a long time since he has taken a team to the playoffs. If success in recent years would have matched his early success I would have said he's in. The issue is that it hasn't. HOF voters aren't going to care that it's a team game. He just hasn't won consistently. That will keep him out of the hall. Edited January 18, 2017 by DriveFor1Outta5

[Buffalo Barbarian]

 

@AroundTheNFL

End Around: Philip Rivers, Joey Bosa swear Chargers will be better than Rams on 'Kimmel' http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000775971/article/rivers-bosa-swear-to-be-better-than-rams-on-kimmel

 

 

 

just saw them on Kimmel on espn and when Rivers had to swear that he would play in LA he really hesitated and DID NOT really want to say it when he did. (translation; coming to Buffalo )

[Alphadawg7]

 

So, scouts whiffed on Wilson is what you're saying (too short means scouts too dumb). Rodgers famously died a slow death as a "#1 overall pick" in the draft's most famous green room torture scene. He slid all the way to 24, passed by more than one team that could have used his services. Also, your naming of several first round busts pretty much cements the foolishness of many scouts, so...thanks for the assist on that one.

 

Anyway, when I ask you to back up your claim that Watson's is a "short passing game", despite evidence that it is not, your only argument is "look at what the scouts are saying!"

 

That's not valid, as you have already proven (thousands of times they have screwed upon QBs). So why do you keep saying that?

 

Ok Mr. Weo, we will just have to agree to disagree, which is fine, but don't know we need to keep dragging this out more. But, I wont short change you on your questions and will respect you and answer them before moving on.

 

You are correct, no scout, GM, analyst, coach, etc is going to always get it right. The biggest issue about Wilson was size, not ability coming out of college. The scouts were right about Rodgers...his draft slot didn't matter...they felt he was one of the best prospects in the draft, and he was.

 

You missed the point of why I brought up those other QB's. Those were ALL QB's that had concerns, question marks, etc and were still taken high because of teams in desperate need of a QB. Much like how we took EJ Manuel in the first despite him being a 2nd to 3rd round graded QB. Was EJ really a first round prospect or was it more that we had to get a QB and he was the best one of the bunch available? Reaching for a QB because he's the best QB available does not mean you are getting a low risk prospect. That is the point. Those high risk QB prospects went high to QB needy teams willing to pass on better prospects at other positions due to the importance of the QB position. And no pre draft analysis is perfect or gospel, so I get it...hard to rebuild without a QB, so its not shocking teams will reach more them when they have to.

 

I don't know what you are really trying to argue with me on in regards to Clemson's offense. All I can suggest is go watch their full games, they run a ton of bubble screens, screens, quick strike passes spread out. All I said is because they run a lot of those, it increases is comp % because they are high percentage passes. He also has a dominant High Point WR in Williams where he can just throw the ball up and he will go get it. But at the end of the day, the over whelming consensus on him around the concerns is his ability to throw down field at the next level and can he improve his mechanics to succeed in the NFL.

 

30 INTs in 2 years is a concerning number in college, especially when you utilize a lot of high percentage throws in your overall offense. But if that doesn't concern you, then fine, everyone views things differently. All I was saying is that it concerns a lot of other people and its why he is more often rated below other QB prospects this year, and often outside of the top 30 in the overall draft. To be fair, all of that can change as we get closer to the draft through workouts, the combine, interviews etc...come draft time, guys will rise and fall, and he could easily fall or climb the draft board depending on how he does leading up to the draft.

Edited January 19, 2017 by Alphadawg7

[P51]

The second half of Rivers career is what's going to hurt him with HOF voters imo. He hasn't won much in many years. That's what voters are going to remember about him. Manning and Roethlisberger both have Super Bowl wins, they are in. Rivers hasn't won anything. No Super Bowl wins or appearances. As mentioned by another poster there was also no point in his career where he was unarguably the best QB for a long stretch. That is what he would have needed to get in without any titles to his credit. It's been a long time since he has taken a team to the playoffs. If success in recent years would have matched his early success I would have said he's in. The issue is that it hasn't. HOF voters aren't going to care that it's a team game. He just hasn't won consistently. That will keep him out of the hall.

 

Rivers did beat Peyton "legend" Manning in back to back years in the playoffs.

The "he was unarguably the not the best QB for a long stretch" IMO is a false narrative, from 2008-2011 he led the NFL at some point in many passing categories including TD passes, ypa, passing yards and quarterback rating and beat Manning twice in the playoffs, he was the AP MVP in 2010, through 2011 Rivers had the highest passer rating of all time and the 2nd best TD/Int ratio of all time, in 2013 he had the best 3rd down conversion rate passing, in 2014 he became the first NFL player ever to have a passer rating over 120 for five consecutive games, in 2012 he became seventh fastest quarterback in NFL history to reach 25,000 career yards. He has been playing with the big boys passing for quite a while.

Compared to Ben and Eli, I think I already showed that he just as good if not better than both as a individual player.

Ill say it again; winning a superbowl does not make one a great player, Steve Largent, Barry Sanders, Warren Moon, Derrick Thomas, Dan Fouts, Eric Dickerson, Dick Butkus, Earl Campbell and Sonny Jergenson were all great players in the hall who did not make/win a superbowl.

Rivers franchise and surrounding team has not been very good the last couple years, he played under Shottenheimer who was 5/6-13 ? in the playoffs, Norv Turner has a slang term "norved" named after him and the last couple years his teams have had horrible injury and talent problems at WR and their offensive line has been a work in progress to say the least. Recent and past history of the team and the circumstances should not factor into a individual players achievements, I would go as far to say that he has been turning water into box wine....

 

Now as far as the writers or hall of fame voters go... Many of them are buffoons and that is more why he wont get in, writers many of whom never played are voting, which is a joke, mostly because they make $h!t up as they go: “Belichick asks me what’s the criteria, and I said I don’t know,” Cole says. “We’re making it up as we go along.” another good one: “There are certain writers who really do a good job. They call people and get the info necessary to make a decision,” Brandt says. “But most of these guys on here have never seen these players closely enough. All of a sudden the writer who’s the best orator sways things. It’s unfair.” http://mmqb.si.com/2014/01/31/pro-football-hall-of-fame-2014-voting

 

I dont know how anyone can watch him play, look at his career resume and go: "Nope, not a hall of famer."

Mean while Warren Moon is in and never made it past the 2nd round of the playoffs, so is Sonny Jergenson who never even lead his team to the playoffs as a starter, he is better than them statistically and he went farther in the playoffs.

 

2 questions.

1 - If (yes its hypothetical) Philip Rivers played for the Giants or Steelers and all things else were the same do you think they would not have won those 4 superbowls with him? Considering Ben had the worst (if my memory serves me) QBR in superbowl history in a win in one of his two.

2 - Would you take Philip Rivers as the QB of the Buffalo Bills today?