Augie Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 Craig and Fran made me feel old. At least my name isn't Fran....
reddogblitz Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 2. This answers shows you must not have played at any level. There is not a single NFL great who was solely great based on their raw talent alone. You have no idea how much of the success on the field is because of the immense hard work put into players working on mechanics, breaking down film, practice methods, building a system around them, etc. I mean to say that all great QB's are great regardless of staff is ludicrous. I suspect this to be true. I haven't played football beyond 8th grade. But I do play drums and have performed at many levels. It is absolutely true for drums. Everyone who is serious practices a lot. But the good ones are just better. On the other hand, I have never known a good drummer who didn't put in a lot of time and effort.
reddogblitz Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 It's definitely way more often than that. This century alone you got last year's Broncos, the Bucs, the Ravens and at least one, if not both, of those Giants teams. Stealers in 2005. Yes, he's a hall of famer. He's also not the reason the Giants beat the Pats twice. Certainly not the year the Pats were 18-0 and the Giants held them to 17 points. Much the same way Peyton Manning is a hall of famer and also not the reason the Broncos won it last year. I'm going to disagree with this one. Breaking free from defenders and hitting Tyree and the winner to Buris were Eli being Eli. His thing isn't stats, it's winning. And he's good at it.
Thrivefourfive Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 Check out where they were drafted and what QBs were drafted ahead of them. Even with Ryan, the Dolphins and Rams took OL and DL before he landed with the Falcons. The draft is a crap shoot, yes, but getting lucky or having the wherewithal to foresee a star (Rogers) is a possibility for all 32.
FireChan Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 Come on dude, "1 per draft"??? He just showed you that in FOUR drafts out of 10 there were none. That means 40% of the time there is NOT a "franchise" guy. Just because one or two STRONG drafts had multiple doesn't equal "1 per draft". If you want to determine how many draft classes produced a franchise or better QB, you don't count the total QB's of all the years that hit, you count HOW MANY of the years a QB emerged vs how many that didn't have one that was at least a franchise guy. That is like saying in 9 years there are none, but in one year there 10, therefore we average 1 per year...which is grossly inaccurate. Furthermore, by your math, you claim there are as many as 20 great QB's taken in the last 10 years of the draft. Well there are only 32 teams...now factor in that FIVE of the BEST QB's in the league were drafted MORE than 10 years ago (Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Big Ben, and Rivers) and the math of your claim becomes even more exaggerated. You can also make a case for Eli and Carson Palmer to be included in the ones outside 10 years considering one has 2 SB rings and the other has been a high level franchise QB for most of his career. Which would further push your claim to be even more absurd. WOW...didnt realize that the NFL was dominated by so many great and franchise QB's. Worse yet, every year there is an assessment of the strength of a class, and in the years where it was viewed as strong, we got multiple quality QB's out of them...and the years it was viewed as questionable to weak...those were mostly a bust. And THIS YEAR, the QB class is considered weak again by just about everyone. You literally just spout off with no care as to the reality of what you say. And as far as you claiming you never said they were great on talent alone...here are you answers to the questions you answered to the other poster about that. And, YOUR exact answer to the question: How many great QB's are great regardless of development staff? ALL OF THEM (your words verbatim)...meaning that they made it on their talent. And YOUR exact answer to the next question: How many great QB's are great because of the development staff? NONE (your only word, verbatim)....meaning again, that no staff can elevate a QB above their raw talent. The average is greater than 1 per draft. Deal with it. Great QB's would be great on whatever team and coach they play with.
Buffalo Barbarian Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 Four teams left led by Brady, Rodgers, Rothlisberger, and Ryan. I think that's 7 Super Bowl rings between them. I forget how many Marcia has. Ryan has had a great year while Rodgers has been white hot the last 2 months. Brady took a month off and looks his usual self. R'berger just keeps winning. Then you have the Raiders a 12 win team, lose Carr and McGloin, who lose to the Texans with rookie QB Cook. Can't help but think Raiders win that one if Carr was able to play. Sure hope the Bills have a viable plan to acquire and develop a good qb. getting Sam Darnold in 2018. Tell me, how did the Broncos win the Super Bowl last year? with one of the greatest QBs of all time. Tell me how did they do with out old run down Manning anyway?
Dragonborn10 Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 Drew Brees. Eli Manning. Tony Romo. Kurt Warner. Matt Hasselback. Brett Favre. Alex Smith. Craig Morton. Peyton Manning. Fran Tarkenton. Well played!
Thurman#1 Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 (edited) Tell me, how did the Broncos win the Super Bowl last year? By having a QB who had four - count 'em, four - fourth quarter comebacks and four Game-Winning Drives that year.. Manning sure wasn't what he had been, but he also was a guy who could step it up when he had to, and an extremely smart guy who didn't take more risks than he had to. He had a lot to do with a bunch of their wins. If Osweiler had been their QB the whole year, they don't win the SB. Unnecessary! Tyrod is the man. Look at all the points the offense scored. Look at the very easy schedule we had. We could probably get to the playoffs with Tyrod, but the odds of winning a Super Bowl would be miniscule. And while you're looking at all the points that the team scored, look at the very average total yardage the offense produced. Edited January 17, 2017 by Thurman#1
Thurman#1 Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 (edited) There are too many awful QB's to list that have won or played in the SuperBowl. Yes I agree these four are amazing and three make the HOF. No different than when Elway, Montana, Kelly, Young, and Marino where playing. Except three of those guys couldn't win the game when they were the focal point of their offense. In fact you can make a nice parallel to today. Elway is Roethisberger now reliant on a running game. Rodgers and Brady are Young and Montana. Ryan is Marino with a ton of yards and zero to show for it. There are lots of ways to win in this league. Sign me up for a superstar QB just for the pure joy of watching them play for the Bills week after week. Until they draft that guy, all I care is winning and competing in the playoffs. Even an average defense gets the Bills to the divisional round of the playoffs this past year. Too many to name for who? Around 10% of Super Bowls are won by teams with a QB who's not a top 10 to top 12 guy for at least a period of time like a couple of years at the time you win. That's what history tends to show. You don't have to be top five or elite. But you have to be top third or so of starters. And the defense of those teams tends to be one of the all-time great defenses, like the Baltimore defense the year Dilfer was their QB or the Bears when they won with McMahon. People want to argue Rypien, but go back and look at how he was playing. He was elite that year, top two or three and excellent the year before. Doug Williams? OK, fair enough. But Brad Johnson was playing very very well, though he certainly didn't maintain that level throughout his career. Highest TDs:INTs ratio in the league that year if I remember correctly. And Hostetler wasn't the QB till Simms was injured late in the year, and Simms was top ten, though not very high, even if that Giants defense wasn't historically excellent. If Hostetler had been QB the whole year, the Giants don't win that title. Eli was on the bubble of elite for two or three years there and has been around 10th or a bit better for most of his career. Russ Wilson was and is top ten. There are not many SB winners that weren't. And planning to be lucky enough to find one of those 10% of years when a team with a franchise guy doesn't win it, and then for your team to be both lucky enough and have a sensational defense that one particular year ... it's not something any team should try to model. Edited January 17, 2017 by Thurman#1
Thurman#1 Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 (edited) 2006-cutler 2007-kevin kolb 2008-ryan, flacco, 2009-stafford, sanchez 2010-bradford, tebow, clausen 2011-newton, dalton, kap, 2012-luck, rg3, tanny, wilson, brock, foles, cousins, 2013- manuel geno 2014-bortles, carr, bridgewater, 2015-winston , mariotta, symien 2016- dak so far so 4 out of 11 drafts have provided no franchise qbs...06, 07,2010, 2013. many of those guys aren't franchise guys. so you can really get it wrong with qb but a lot still get drafted. very low success rate Bradford and Cutler are franchise QBs, by most definitions. IMHO Bradford might yet develop and become a consistent top ten to top 12 guy. Edited January 17, 2017 by Thurman#1
BuffaloFan68 Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 How about Mahommes & Foles? Go Bills!!!!!
BillsFan2313 Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 How many great QBs are in this draft? How many great QBs are great regardless of development staff? How many great QBs are great because of development staff? How do you know that answer? Look at the last 4 QB's remaining in the playoffs, only Matt Ryan was a top 5 pick...
8-8 Forever? Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 Nooooooooooooo! pretty well guaranteed at this point. Rexy's QB and his Def. draft picks don't fit what McD and Childress do. So "its a rebuild" . yay! 3 more years of "we'll get there" and "need to be patient while we build the roster" quotes.
aristocrat Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 Bradford and Cutler are franchise QBs, by most definitions. IMHO Bradford might yet develop and become a consistent top ten to top 12 guy. neither are franchise guys.
MAJBobby Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 Every year rule changes make it easier to pass. Time to get to Modern Football Buffalo
Marty McFly Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 Once every twenty or thirty years, you get a Superbowl winner carried pretty much by the defense alone. A top-tier qb makes you relevant for a decade or more. Like it or not, you have to play the lotto on the position if you don't have one. And then when you do, you still keep drafting. My own proclivities, btw, would be to build the lines on both sides of the ball. Contemporary NFL skews towards the qb, however, so I think you need to make it priority 1 and 1A. Your #s are wayyyy off. Ravens in 2000 Tampa Bay in 2002 Seahawks in 2013 Broncos in 2016. Im not saying you should draft one cuz I agree you should but, having a defense + strong run game take you there and get you the W a lot more than people want to admit.
MAJBobby Posted January 18, 2017 Posted January 18, 2017 Your #s are wayyyy off. Ravens in 2000 Tampa Bay in 2002 Seahawks in 2013 Broncos in 2016. Im not saying you should draft one cuz I agree you should but, having a defense + strong run game take you there and get you the W a lot more than people want to admit. So you outlined 4 times in 16 years. 25% of the years. I will go with the other 75% is QB by your numbers.
Marty McFly Posted January 18, 2017 Posted January 18, 2017 So you outlined 4 times in 16 years. 25% of the years. I will go with the other 75% is QB by your numbers. This guy said it happens once every 20 years. I was using data to prove that was incorrect. Anything you say after the fact has nuttin to do with my comment
Alphadawg7 Posted January 18, 2017 Posted January 18, 2017 The average is greater than 1 per draft. Deal with it. Great QB's would be great on whatever team and coach they play with. I find hilarious how your prove in all kinds of different threads how you can not comprehend simple math. 40% of the last 10 drafts did not produce a franchise QB...somehow to you that means we average 1 per draft. You know you are wrong...deal with it.
FireChan Posted January 18, 2017 Posted January 18, 2017 I find hilarious how your prove in all kinds of different threads how you can not comprehend simple math. 40% of the last 10 drafts did not produce a franchise QB...somehow to you that means we average 1 per draft. You know you are wrong...deal with it. You don't know what average means. But that's okay.
Recommended Posts